I don't get how anyone can say 3 is better than 4.
[QUOTE=Mezzokoko;49133059]If your main quest is so restrictive on roleplaying, that the only valid option to do so properly is to abandon it entirely, it isn't doing its job properly. It shouldn't dictate most of the entire path or personality behind your character, but just provide a simple hook to kickstart the story. F1 and 2 (and to an extent NV) have just done that and did not hold your hand on what to do next or gave away lazy markers. You actually had to find the waterchip/GECK yourself by asking around settlements and exploring areas. None of this actual adventury stuff happens in any of the Bethesda games. Instead you have a linear sequence of generic kill/errand-quests which barely provide ANY ground for roleplay. There IS no excuse for these things, when it has been done extremely well before, other than having to streamline the living hell out of a franchise to make it more accessible (=no effort required to learn more complex mechanics, or finding paths to the goal yourself, which gives games depth in the first place).[/QUOTE]
But the main quest in bethesda has always been built to be a rather secondary thing that you can just ignore, that's why people even play them to begin with.
Even New Vegas had elements in the DLC that drastically changed the nature of the main character - so when I don't want my character to somehow be involved with the divide and know Ulysses in any shape of form, I just ignore the DLC and pretend it doesn't exist.
Fallout 4 still requires quite a bit of inquiring if you want to get around. You're led from one place to the next and you have quest markers, sure (if you don't like them, don't select the quest. Bam, no quest markers) but a lot of the story is actually centered around trying to find what the hell you're supposed to do next, and gather help to find your son.
Roleplaying also involves a bit of suspension of disbelief and the ability to ignore certain gameplay aspects in order to focus on the roleplay aspect. Because you can sleep for one hour and restore all of your limb condition and health doesn't mean you have to do it if you want to roleplay. Because your character can magically know exactly where to go thanks to quest markers doesn't mean you have to use quest markers - you can just not select the quest at all.
Also finding the water chip in Fallout 1 was hilariously easy, you'd literally just haul ass to the closest settlement, ask to the first guy you meet who directs you to the town leader, and you'd end up railroaded all the way to the vault. Only difference is that in one case you get a quest marker in a big 3D open world and in the other you get a map marker in a two dimensional world with limited environments separated by a simple map.
[editline]17th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Skyward;49133115]I don't get how anyone can say 3 is better than 4.[/QUOTE]
Has anyone ever said that ?
[QUOTE=Skyward;49133115]I don't get how anyone can say 3 is better than 4.[/QUOTE]
The only thing I can think of that's better in 3 is you have more [B]dynamic[/B] choices in dialog.
Basically, (Good, Bad, Neutral, More information) vs. (Concerned parent, Really concerned parent, Angry concerned parent, Question about last subject). Fallout 3 has different branches of morality, while Fallout 4 has different shades of delivery for the same scenario.
Other than that, Fallout 4 plays better and has a much more interesting wasteland.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49130157]Actually, the entire concept doesn't make sense once you get one important part of the grand story involved.
The location of the water filter, its based at the end of the Potomac against the Chesapeake Bay which is fed in via the Atlantic ocean.
Plus, every major settlement has clean water already.
[editline]16th November 2015[/editline]
Except for the weapon modding system...crafting system. Faction system. And ya'know, half the stuff that makes New Vegas, fucking New Vegas.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and all that stuff was added because obsidian had a lot more time to add it. Literally all that is in fallout 4
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49133125]snop[/QUOTE]
1. By being way too linear Lonesome Road did the exact same mistake Bethesda do in their main quests and deserves the same criticism for it. Shoving too much pre-existing story onto a character ultimatively hurts the roleplaying aspect, as it might (and mostly will) hurt the character concept you had in mind. Purposefully avoiding or ignoring parts of the game because of that is meta-gaming and shouldn't be neccessary. Same also goes for lazy and half-arsed gameplay mechanics. Ignoring half of what is wrong with a game doesn't make it neccessarily more believable, you just stop thinking about how terrible it is. If Bethesda want to be the kings of immersive world building, they better do something for it and stop recycling all the clichés and issues of previous titles.
2. I personally noticed only two of these occasions (up to after [sp]Killing Kellog after a boring linear "kill everything" dungeon[/sp]) on which you are [del]forced[/del] quite encouraged to look around for the correct NPC to trigger the next map marker, both which were really hard to miss, so I wouldn't even go close to compare it to the memorable first moments outside of Vault 13 and the actual sense of not having a clue what to do. Even though you do get quite a few directions to places (NOT "advance plot here"-markers), you do the journey on your own terms and are never forced to talk to specific characters (except the two overseer conversations) to advance the plot. Meanwhile in Fallout 4 I have to [sp]rescue the only Detective in the entire Boston wasteland who could possibly get me on the right track and get this shitty dog I didn't want, to sniff his way along the railroad, which is the conveniently placed line of dropped items from the absolutely black and white bad guy who murdered our husband/wife. I stopped playing the MQ here[/sp].
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49133125]Has anyone ever said that ?[/QUOTE]
Oh yes. There's even people that say FO4 isn't even an RPG.
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49133826]What now?[/QUOTE]
Now I think you're silly.
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49133826]Also yes, Fallout 4 is not a RPG, it's a open-world FPS with small RPG elements sprinkled on top of it.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't call 70+ perks that actually impact gameplay, open choice of weapons with a complete crafting system to improve them, level progression and having to specialize your character to be efficient just small RPG elements.
"Small RPG elements" is when you have access to a basic upgrade system that's still hidden linear progression with a hint of choice, with no actual leveling or experience or meaningful choices.
So by your logic is The Witcher 3 not a RPG ?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49134073]So by your logic is The Witcher 3 not a RPG ?[/QUOTE]
I was literally just about to ask this. It seems like people are arbitrarily making requirements for what is or isn't a RPG based entirely on how much they like a game.
Like I've seen people say Fallout 4 isn't a RPG because you aren't a blank slate, which would mean Mass Effect, The Witcher, Alpha Protocol, and a ton of other well loved RPGs aren't really RPGs.
I've seen people say that it isn't a RPG because you don't choose where to allocate stat points, which means pretty much no JRPGs are RPGs.
I've seen people say it isn't a RPG because you don't have a ton of dialogue optins, which means 90% of all RPGs ever made aren't actually RPGs.
Like, somehow having game mechanics that aren't complete dogshit somehow means it isn't a RPG anymore. "You can aim your gun and actually hit things. It's a shooter now, not a RPG!"
gettin off topic but if you have not played witcher 3 you should drop everything ur doing and play it. its an rpg that every other rpg should strive to be
[editline]d[/editline]
lol guy disagreeing with me has never played it lol
[editline]d[/editline]
also thinks fallout 3 is good
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134102]Haven't played any of the Witcher games yet, so I cannot judge. But I can say with my experience with the Fallout series that Fallout 4 is certainly not a RPG, or mechanically feels like a Fallout game at all. It looks like a Fallout game, and has Fallout lore and detail spouting out from everywhere, but like I said before it's an open-world FPS with RPG elements. Just try comparing Fallout 2 and/or New Vegas to Fallout 4, it will say enough.[/QUOTE]
The Witcher 3 has been praised as one of the best RPGs released in years. It has basically the exact same skill system as Fallout 4, a voiced protagonist with his own world view, and combat that relies largely on player skill and not arbitrary skill numbers.
The Witcher 3 was praised for being a great RPG for pretty much all the reasons people complain Fallout 4 isn't an RPG at all, the only difference is The Witcher 3 does it better.
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134027]Fallout 3 has 90+ perks, and New Vegas 110+ perks, which come ON TOP of your basic skills.[/QUOTE]
Fallout 3 with all the DLC has 93 perks, the base game has 70. New Vegas with all DLC has 117 perks, the base game has 86 perks. Fallout 4 has 70 perks you gain by leveling and 41 perks you can get from magazines (not including magazines which unlock things like tattoos or haircuts, which would bring it up to 45 magazine perks).
Meaning Fallout 3 has in total 93 perks, New Vegas has 117 perks, and Fallout 4 has 111 perks, not counting unlocks. Dumbed down indeed.
well you could always just turn off the voice audio if u hate it so much ;(
everything else is definitely a fallout game. coming from someone who spent a ridiculous amount of time playing new vegas and misses having greater dialogue options
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134157]You're totally missing my point somehow. [b]Fallout 4 isn't a RPG[/b] because you can barely role play, player character wise and gameplay mechanics wise, which is a bad thing considering it's a Fallout game. And since the Fallout games have both of these so tight together, with the exception of Fallout 3 having them a little less tight together, it doesn't make it feel mechanically like a Fallout RPG. I wish you could point out at least 5 things that truly shows you can role play as much in Fallout 4 as in the previous games. Also, were talking about Fallout games here, which are a big thing RPG wise on their own, so dragging games like Witcher and Mass Effect into the game makes your argument sound weaker because they're totally not relevant to the point.[/QUOTE]
Haha, what?
Are you serious? It's 100% an RPG.
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134311]It's like you people are trying to make your purchases sound justified. Face the fact, it's a great open world game, but it's mechanically not a Fallout game.[/QUOTE]
I would say it's not much of a Fallout game in general.
But hey at least it's a fun game, I couldn't say that about Fallout 3.
[editline]17th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr Flexi;49134375]Haha, what?
Are you serious? It's 100% an RPG.[/QUOTE]
Well if Fallout 4 is an RPG it's not a very good one.
if you took out the dumb dialogue system i dont see how you couldnt call it an rpg. it has every trope
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134311]It's like you people are trying to make your purchases sound justified. Face the fact, it's a great open world game, but it's mechanically not a Fallout game.[/QUOTE]
Wow, you sound butthurt as fuck TBH. I don't even own the game yet, I've just watched streams. I just hate seeing people exaggerate the problems the game has and basically having bitch fits in every thread the game is mentioned in. Fallout 4 isn't an amazing game from what I've seen, the dialogue isn't great, the conversation options are vague at best, and a large number of the skills/perks are boring as shit. That doesn't mean it isn't an RPG, it doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means it's a game you don't like, a game that didn't meet your expectations.
Which leads me to ask, were your expectations perhaps a little high? Everything they showed about the game before it came out is either just as they described or better. Sure they didn't give a lot of information about the story or the world, but if you built it up to be some amazing thing before it came out then that's your fault not Bethesda's. They never made any claims about the story other than that it'd be a more personal tale, which it is for better or worse.
Or were you coming into the game expecting to hate it? Did you see the changes to the perk and dialogue systems and immediately recoil in horror, and convince yourself over the few months between the announcement and release that because they decided to do something different that it would be terrible no matter what?
Ether way you're setting yourself up to hate the game without looking at it on its own merits. Instead of seeing if it's a good game, you say it's a bad Fallout game based entirely on arbitrary systems or on a mediocre story that made no promises of greatness (nor had the track record to make such a claim).
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49133826]I think Fallout 3 is better than Fallout 4.
What now?
[editline]yeee[/editline]
Also yes, Fallout 4 is not a RPG, it's an open-world FPS with small RPG elements sprinkled on top of it.[/QUOTE]
Why do you have Todd as your avatar if you don't like fallout 4 isn't that the facepunch meme, you even continuously spammed SH about new features in FO4 and now you're bashing it; what are you even doing
It's fine to say you thing Fallout 4 is a bad game, or that it's a game you don't like, but to say it isn't a particular genre [i]because you don't like it[/i] is just fucking stupid. Like or don't like the game all you want but don't try to justify it with stupid declarations of "It isn't -insert genre- because -arbitrary reasons that have nothing to do with genre definitions-!"
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134454]I'm litterly not saying I don't like Fallout 4, I never said that anywhere. I think it's a really incredible game, that's fun and adictive. But when I'm judging it objectively, it's just not a Fallout game, mechanically, like I said dozens of times now before. The wastes, places, characters, lore, and artstyle all screams Fallout, but not the gameplay. And this is comming from a long time fan of the series, who loves the hell out of the entire series.
Still, it's a very fun open-world FPS set in the Fallout fiction. I wish the ending to the mainquest was a bit better though.[/QUOTE]
By that definition then neither Fallout 3 or New Vegas would Fallout games, seeing as they use entirely different systems to the original games.
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134311]It's like you people are trying to make your purchases sound justified. Face the fact, it's a great open world game, but it's mechanically not a Fallout game.[/QUOTE]
Fallout has gone through several different types of gameplay altogether though.
By this logic, if fallout 4 isn't "mechanically" a fallout game, then neither is New Vegas.
Fallout 4 is a good game, I just don't think its a very good Fallout game. It gets the world, the characters and art down immediately, which is fantastic. But I can't see myself doing more than 2 playthroughs before DLC. You're always that concerned parent who is obsessed with finding your child (which as the player, got to know for ca 2 minutes and didn't get to make any sort of bond to. You feel disconnected to the story imo) and there isn't much you can do for that matter, you get your 4 choices in dialogue: Sarcastic, ask a question, refuse (which often doesnt work because you need to pick a certain dialogue option) & of course ill do anything for you person I've never met before.
I dislike not being able to be an evil person, fucking people over. The worst I can do so far is demand a ton of money for the quests im given by people.
The story isnt very interesting and is railroaded as fuck, I'm not interesting in finding my child. I want to roleplay as someone else, but every quest i do reminds me of that im so limited in what kind of character i am.
In New Vegas I could always pretend to be someone else, I was a courier but after that it was all up to me who I wanted to be, in Fallout 4 however I'm ALWAYS that concerned parent who only wants to find his/her child.
Overall I think its a good game, modtools will make is immensly better and Im really looking forward to what their DLCs are going to be. I just wish Obsidian could've helped on the story and RPG parts, cause it's really lacking.
[QUOTE=AcidAmbience;49134436]Why do you have Todd as your avatar if you don't like fallout 4 isn't that the facepunch meme, you even continuously spammed SH about new features in FO4 and now you're bashing it; what are you even doing[/QUOTE]
Hype does strange things to a man.
[QUOTE=Starship;49134483]
I dislike not being able to be an evil person, fucking people over. The worst I can do so far is demand a ton of money for the quests im given by people.[/QUOTE]
Just as an aside. I've seen people make this complaint about a lot of RPGs and I've always wanted to ask. What do you mean by an "evil person"? Are we talking calculated genius who manipulates the world into doing what he wants, or stupid moron retard who kills people indiscriminately while kicking children and dogs giggling to himself about how bad he is? Because most games that have an "evil" path tend to go for the latter, which is less evil and more fucking stupid.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49134532]Just as an aside. I've seen people make this complaint about a lot of RPGs and I've always wanted to ask. What do you mean by an "evil person"? Are we talking calculated genius who manipulates the world into doing what he wants, or stupid moron retard who kills people indiscriminately while kicking children and dogs giggling to himself about how bad he is? Because most games that have an "evil" path tend to go for the latter, which is less evil and more fucking stupid.[/QUOTE]
In New Vegas, I could side with powder gangers and do some evil shit, I could side with Caesars legion and sell Arcade Gannon (or was it someone else I cant remember) as a slave to them. In Fallout 4 the most evil faction you can join is basically BoS for not liking synths or [sp]the institute[/sp] which compared to NV factions, arent very evil. This is just my opinion and I don't even play evil that much, but I like having the choice and actually would like to play evil in FO4.
I rarely go evil in Fallout, I just pick asshole dialogue for a laugh
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134527][B]I'd argue Fallout 3 also leaning more towards open-world FPS with RPG elements.[/B] And yes, while New Vegas is also on the same engine as Fallout 3, it made alot of changes and improvements that makes it actually feel, mechanically too, like the original games. New Vegas' role playing is so much like the original games, it totally blows Fallout 3 out of the water in that regard, but yeah, that's not weird considering it comes from the original developers of Fallout 2 (largely).
I like just because I'm criticizing Fallout 4 of not being a RPG/mechanically like the previous Fallout games, mainly talking about F1/F2/NV in that regard, you say I apperantly don't like it or think it's a bad game, because it's truly not. I'm having as much fun probably with it as you guys are having too, but I don't like this whole acting like Fallout 4 is much like the previous games, because it's [B]not[/B].
It's fun, adictive, large, we'll probably spend hundres of hours exploring it, and the interesting places and characters combined with the incredible artstyle will keep us occupied for a long time, but again it's mechanically a Fallout game, it's a FPS with RPG elements.
I love everyone thinks I took Todd Howard as avatar because I was hype for Fallout 4. Certainly was hyped for it, but it was not the reason I choose to use it.[/QUOTE]
You do know that a thing can be multiple genres at once, right? Fallout 3, New Vegas, and 4 are all FPS games (and TPS games if you want), they're RPGs too.
The difference between Far Cry and Fallout is the focus. In Far Cry the RPG elements are in service to the FPS gameplay, they exist solely to add depth to the shooting. In Far Cry there's nothing to do except to shoot things, and shooting things is done to gain the ability to shoot more things.
In Fallout the FPS gameplay is in service to the RPG systems, it exists to give a tactile feel to the game. In Fallout shooting things is done as a means to an end, rather than an end unto itself. You're able and encouraged to do things other than shooting. You can talk to people, build settlements, explore the world and find things that's not just junk you sell at the nearest merchant.
Fallout 4 is absolutely a FPS, but it's a RPG too, and claiming otherwise is factually incorrect.
[QUOTE=Starship;49134568]In New Vegas, I could side with powder gangers and do some evil shit, I could side with Caesars legion and sell Arcade Gannon (or was it someone else I cant remember) as a slave to them. In Fallout 4 the most evil faction you can join is basically BoS for not liking synths or [sp]the institute[/sp] which compared to NV factions, arent very evil. This is just my opinion and I don't even play evil that much, but I like having the choice and actually would like to play evil in FO4.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, what I meant was "What the fuck is evil anyway?" Joining the Powder Gangers in my eyes isn't evil it's just a short sighted and stupid thing to do. You have nothing to gain from it (woo, the weakest explosive in the game) and it leads no where. I don't consider joining the Legion to be inherently evil, they're technophobic and barbaric but that doesn't make them evil. Slavery is probably the only evil thing among that, and if you count that as irredeemably evil then most of Human history is the most evil shit ever.
I'm not saying you aren't somewhat of a goodie two shoes in 4, I'm just wondering what you actually want from an 'evil' character/playthrough.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49134674]Sorry, what I meant was "What the fuck is evil anyway?" Joining the Powder Gangers in my eyes isn't evil it's just a short sighted and stupid thing to do. You have nothing to gain from it (woo, the weakest explosive in the game) and it leads no where. I don't consider joining the Legion to be inherently evil, they're technophobic and barbaric but that doesn't make them evil. Slavery is probably the only evil thing among that, and if you count that as irredeemably evil then most of Human history is the most evil shit ever.
I'm not saying you aren't somewhat of a goodie two shoes in 4, I'm just wondering what you actually want from an 'evil' character/playthrough.[/QUOTE]
Well, the shit from NV is evil to me. I mean, its the most evil we get in many videogames (where you can join an evil faction).
And yeah, human history is pretty fucking evil and cruel, slavery included.
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