[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134664]I'm not wasting time on this anymore, this is like talking to a brick wall. This is becoming a "IT IS, IT'S NOT, IT IS, IT'S NOT" discussion about whether it is or it's not a RPG, while we all know the answer, deep inside all of us, it's, truly, truly not. :v:
Now, I'm gonna enjoy Fallout 4 further, don't know what you guys are up to, but I finally have the chance to play it again.
Have fun to everyone who also owns the game already, and I hope those of you, like Janus, who do not own it yet are able to get it into the near future to enjoy it too!
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVjkvaeFnQ"]Have a good day, and see you around guys, it's been great![/URL][/QUOTE]
It isn't becoming a "IT IS, IT'S NOT, IT IS, IT'S NOT" discussion. It's me and Ganerumo telling you why it is a RPG and you going "Lalala I'm not listening it's a shooter lalala!"
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49134664]I'm not wasting time on this anymore, this is like talking to a brick wall. This is becoming a "IT IS, IT'S NOT, IT IS, IT'S NOT" discussion about whether it is or it's not a RPG, while we all know the answer it's, truly, truly not. :v:
Now, I'm gonna enjoy Fallout 4 further, don't know what you guys are up to, but I finally have the chance to play it again.
Have fun to everyone who also owns the game already, and I hope those of you, like Janus, who do not own it yet are able to get it into the near future to enjoy it too!
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkVjkvaeFnQ"]Have a good day, and see you around guys, it's been great![/URL][/QUOTE]
I just can't take anything you've said seriously when you continue to debate whether or not it is an RPG.
Was all of this an elaborate joke?
If it wasn't, we need to inform the world that we've got a lot of games listed under the RPG genre incorrectly!
[QUOTE=AcidAmbience;49134436]Why do you have Todd as your avatar if you don't like fallout 4 isn't that the facepunch meme, you even continuously spammed SH about new features in FO4 and now you're bashing it; what are you even doing[/QUOTE]
because people think that putting Todd Howard as their avatar is somehow -humorous-
[QUOTE=Starship;49134687]Well, the shit from NV is evil to me. I mean, its the most evil we get in many videogames (where you can join an evil faction).
And yeah, human history is pretty fucking evil and cruel, slavery included.[/QUOTE]
No, I mean. What exactly do you want from an evil character? Evil is such a vague term it basically doesn't mean anything. Going on a rampage and murdering all of Goodsprings is 'evil'. Bullying and extorting people in Vegas is 'evil'. Joining the Legion and enslaving people is 'evil'. But none of them are even remotely similar. The first is a psychotic act that serves no purpose other than catharsis, the second is a selfish act done to benefit yourself at the expense of others, the third is a selfish act done to benefit a larger group.
Being evil for the sake of being evil just comes across more like insanity to me, if you do all those things on the same character you're not acting in a consistent manner, you're not being a character, you're just 'being evil', which basically makes you a cartoon villain.
The game opens up a bit after you go through the main story some, I was struggling to satiate my lust for innocent blood until [sp]the BoS told me to eliminate the Railroad, who I had done some quests for while deciding what faction I was ultimately going to join. And I brained all of those synth loving bastards with a massive god damn sledgehammer and stole their fancy robot.[/sp] That felt pretty evil.
[QUOTE=AimlessGiant;49134775]The game opens up a bit after you go through the main story some, I was struggling to satiate my lust for innocent blood until [sp]the BoS told me to eliminate the Railroad, who I had done some quests for while deciding what faction I was ultimately going to join. And I brained all of those synth loving bastards with a massive god damn sledgehammer and stole their fancy robot.[/sp] That felt pretty evil.[/QUOTE]
See this is what I was looking for. Every time I see people praising 'evil' options in games it's just "I was a psychopath who murdered villages and ate their babies for no reason." Which is incredibly boring to me, which is why I asked about what people want from an evil character. This has justification, it has reasoning. It isn't murdering children for fun evil.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49133106]The idea is that the wasteland is fucked down to the water tables and no amount of traditional water purification could cleanse that - except project purity, which is designed to pulse purification down to the water tables using the geck and clean shit down to the underground level, instead of just soaking in dirty water and making it clean. That's why the thing does this big pulse when you first turn it on.
It's basically the same system as how Harold functions in F3 - a centralized system that cleanses everything for the surrounding area.
I wrote a rather lengthy explanation about this a while back, if you want to read it :
[url]http://pastebin.com/FafmrFA0[/url][/QUOTE]
Except the water table isn't fucking located in the Chesepeake bay. The Water table fucking [B]feeds the cheesepake.[/B]
All of the rivers flow into the Cheesepeak, for Project Purity to actually work in any semblence of the word, he'd have to build several facilities further inland away from DC which could then purify the table downwards.
There's a reason why spill cleans up regard rivers start from the top and go downward, because the source of water is the source of the water table they generally start fucking upstream. Stop trying to defend a ridiculous premise, it does not work on a logical, scientific, ecologic and economical level.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49133106]The idea is that the wasteland is fucked down to the water tables and no amount of traditional water purification could cleanse that - except project purity, which is designed to pulse purification down to the water tables using the geck and clean shit down to the underground level, instead of just soaking in dirty water and making it clean. That's why the thing does this big pulse when you first turn it on.
It's basically the same system as how Harold functions in F3 - a centralized system that cleanses everything for the surrounding area.
I wrote a rather lengthy explanation about this a while back, if you want to read it :
[url]http://pastebin.com/FafmrFA0[/url][/QUOTE]
The GECK quite literally breaks down matter into energy and then reforms it. That's hardly a traditional method of water purification. The GECK alone should be fully capable of purifying the water of the wasteland and terraforming the wastes. Frankly the capital wasteland isn't even the most irradiated area in Fallout considering you have areas like The Glow where normal human life explicitly cannot survive and yet nearby settlements are just fine with standard water purification.
Now if the local supply of FEV has leaked into the water normal methods might not work, but as far as I can remember that isn't ever even inferred, much less actually stated. Anyone assuming it's true for sake of the plot making sense is just trying to apply their own canon to make up for Bethesda's failings. Frankly if the water was outright tainted with FEV I would assume Ghouls would be much more prevalent. Frankly when you start having to type out multiple paragraphs to explain how a very basic plot point makes sense then you should probably stop and think about why you're even bothering to defend it.
Fallout 4's system is better than the outdated and archaic system used in 1 and 2, and 1 and 2 have dulled with age. The system works for turn based, but in an FPS it's really just a 1,2,3,4 tier system in disguise and complicates the programming of it in an unneeded way. Skills don't come as easily and you need to think quite a lot about everything, perhaps a little too much.
and then there is Skyrims system. You use X thing, you gain X skill, SIMPLE isn't IT?
and then there's dark souls 2, you gain 1 point and it gives you X thing. Very simple.
and then theres fallout 3, where there are a ton of individual stats and while they all have meaning, they all have an arbitrary amount of shit that comes with it that works well in turn based, not so much in a shooter.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49134632]You do know that a thing can be multiple genres at once, right? Fallout 3, New Vegas, and 4 are all FPS games (and TPS games if you want), they're RPGs too.
The difference between Far Cry and Fallout is the focus. In Far Cry the RPG elements are in service to the FPS gameplay, they exist solely to add depth to the shooting. In Far Cry there's nothing to do except to shoot things, and shooting things is done to gain the ability to shoot more things.
In Fallout the FPS gameplay is in service to the RPG systems, it exists to give a tactile feel to the game. In Fallout shooting things is done as a means to an end, rather than an end unto itself. You're able and encouraged to do things other than shooting. You can talk to people, build settlements, explore the world and find things that's not just junk you sell at the nearest merchant.
Fallout 4 is absolutely a FPS, but it's a RPG too, and claiming otherwise is factually incorrect.[/QUOTE]
That's why I don't call them anything else than RPGlites, the role element has been removed from everything that it was involved with regard to previous fallouts games. Namely the the SPECIAL/STat checks in conversations that would allow you to go more pacifist.
Everyone is the same girl/guy just with a different set of 'skills' as much as Far Cry 3 allowed for a different 'set of skills'.
[editline]17th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=J!NX;49135123]Fallout 4's system is better than the outdated and archaic system used in 1 and 2, and 1 and 2 have dulled with age. The system works for turn based, but in an FPS it's really just a 1,2,3,4 tier system in disguise and complicates the programming of it in an unneeded way.[/QUOTE]
Except it didn't because you still have the math going on Fallout 4. The stat system needed work, but it allowed for more depth than what we've received with Fallout 4.
I won't say fallout 4's system has depth, but it's a lot more fitting for a shooter is all. There's no math involved in counting to 10 or tiers.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49135160]I won't say fallout 4's system has depth, but it's a lot more fitting for a shooter is all. There's no math involved in counting to 10 or tiers.[/QUOTE]
Except those tiers increase aspects of accuracy, damage, crit chance...
[editline]17th November 2015[/editline]
I won't defend the New Vegas/Fo3 implementation of the Stat System.
It relied way to heavily on intelligence; I would've preferred been given less preference on Int and instead a mid level or late level increase in skill points before the level cap was it. I also would've preferred if the level cap wasn't increased every time with the DLCs coming out. That severely shoved a nail into the stat system's coffin at that point.
lmao fallout 4 is more of an rpg than diablo despite being in the same genre really
while it's certainly lacking a whole lot in the 'roleplay' department but it definitely does share many characteristics of other rpgs, especially modern ones (modern ones basically being ARPGs but with some semblance of narrative choice and dialogue). What people aren't considering is that all of Beth games have been Action RPGs where choices are limited to what side quests you ignore (or how to choose to end them) and which ones you don't and where character builds are mostly defined by what weapons you use in combat.
Seeing as NV is the most recent fallout and did actually try to work to break the A-RPG mould that Beth's been doing, I think people expected Fo4 to play more like NV in terms of the story accommodating character builds and providing a decent range of narrative choice. As an RPG, Fallout 4 probably did about as fine as Skyrim did. And while that's not great, it's worth recognizing that Beth's games are trying less to be RPGs and more to be adventure-exploration games with RPG elements.
[editline]17th November 2015[/editline]
And while I am kind of intrigued by how Fallout 4 ''''''solved'''''' the skill system, you have to admit that it's ultimately flawed and like most of beth's ideas, are very good on paper but have little thought put into them and are typically poorly executed. While the skill system gave an illusion of depth where there was little, there is similarly very little depth in the new perk system except without the numbers to disguise it.
[editline]17th November 2015[/editline]
basically: if beth's not going to make a game about narrative choice, they might as well pull a deus ex or a diablo and make the game about build choice, making each build interesting, viable, and offer a different experience.
You don't really need a lot of depth (which some people think stems from numerics and modifiers) in your systems to do this, in fact you can make it mostly abstract and binary which then lends to the depth as each build feels less jack-of-all-trades but with a gun/bat/laser and more of a X/Y/Z
for example: fallout 4 did try to do this in some areas with the revamped radiation system that showed immediate and clear effects as opposed to lowering a ton of different stats very minorly
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49133913]I wouldn't call 70+ perks that actually impact gameplay, open choice of weapons with a complete crafting system to improve them, level progression and having to specialize your character to be efficient just small RPG elements.
"Small RPG elements" is when you have access to a basic upgrade system that's still hidden linear progression with a hint of choice, with no actual leveling or experience or meaningful choices.[/QUOTE]
Under your generic definition CoD is an rpg. Meta advancement does not a role playing [b]game[/b] make.
[QUOTE=27X;49135894]Under your generic definition CoD is an rpg. Meta advancement does not a role playing [b]game[/b] make.[/QUOTE]
He's actually agreeing with you though?
[QUOTE=cdr248;49135940]He's actually agreeing with you though?[/QUOTE]
He both is and is not.
He's saying the perk system is better because it doesn't quote 'lie to you' where as the Stat system does. This issue with this statement is that the Stat system doesn't like you because if say, you take negatives via radiation or drinking and it hits your SPECIAL it deflates/inflates your Stats as well.
I honestly just miss being able to squeak by on things, I can no longer take mentats and say, get into a computer that as an advanced level of encryption.
[QUOTE=Drury;49108822]NV I really liked because you get shot in the head by this smug fucker right off the bat. You don't need to know anything else. You get back on your feet and he's one dead sunovabitch. It's as purely personal as it gets.[/QUOTE]
I did like that about NV over 3 (I'll get around to 4 eventually). That driving plot is actually super fucking short and you get it done in a few hours if you aren't really paying attention. But it introduces you to the rest of the world, and the other real threats that you need to handle. Essentially making it just one arc of the Couriers story. And not even the biggest really.
But it's super straight forward "you got shot. go slap some shit until you feel happy about that".
Guys, there's no point in arguing the logic of what makes an RPG and what doesn't.
The definition of an RPG has only gotten more and more blurry in recent years. It used to define pretty much any game that utilized established tabletop RPG mechanics, and now it defines any game that has any sort of leveling and progression system.
It's even gotten to the point where games in other genres could be considered RPGs. You could technically consider CoD's multiplayer to be an RPG. It has a leveling and progress system based on XP. A lot of mobile games could be considered as RPGs.
And honestly, the argument over which method gives you more control comes down to personal preference.
I just wish it wasn't put into Fallout.
I didn't meet (SPOILER) [sp] shaun [/sp] until around 80 hours in, and it was strange seeing my super battle-hardened badass female equipped in a full set of winterized t-51 now on the verge of crying. Despite never showing any emotion at all during the 80 hours I spent wandering around the wasteland, seeing the most fucked up things.
My point is; Bethesda shoehorned Nora into my character, the story disregards the character you defined through playing the game.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49134256]Fallout 3 with all the DLC has 93 perks, the base game has 70. New Vegas with all DLC has 117 perks, the base game has 86 perks. Fallout 4 has 70 perks you gain by leveling and 41 perks you can get from magazines (not including magazines which unlock things like tattoos or haircuts, which would bring it up to 45 magazine perks).
Meaning Fallout 3 has in total 93 perks, New Vegas has 117 perks, and Fallout 4 has 111 perks, not counting unlocks. Dumbed down indeed.[/QUOTE]
the magazine perks hardly count when the majority is shit like +5% crit damage or +5% damage against super mutants. you can also get every single one of them easily on one character. a number of those fo4 perks also replace skills from previous game, so probably shouldn't count them either.
there's also more than 4 magazines that unlock stuff considering three issues of picket fences, two haircut magazines, three hot rodders and I don't even know how many taboo tattoos.
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;49138175]the magazine perks hardly count when the majority is shit like +5% crit damage or +5% damage against super mutants. you can also get every single one of them easily on one character. a number of those fo4 perks also replace skills from previous game, so probably shouldn't count them either.
there's also more than 4 magazines that unlock stuff considering three issues of picket fences, two haircut magazines, three hot rodders and I don't even know how many taboo tattoos.[/QUOTE]
Okay firstly, I wasn't even counting perk levels, that would be stupid. If I did that I could easily say Fallout 4 has ove 300 perks and someone would immediately point out that perk levels aren't new perks.
Secondly, you can't arbitrarily say a type of perk doesn't count for one game while ignoring that that type of perk has been in all the games. Most perks don't have huge effects on gameplay and only offer small bonuses, if we aren't counting them thn all the games lose a lot of perks from their count.
If we aren't allowed to count "+5%" boosts then of Fallout 3's original 58 regular perks 38 need to be counted as 'not really perks'. Out of New Vegas' 86 original regular perks 42 need to be counted as 'not really perks'. You can't just say "Well in this game they don't do much so they don't count, but in the other games they still count even though they're the exact same." At least in Fallout 4 you don't have to waste a level for 5% increase to critical hits or +3DT.
As far as I can see people are just making up completely arbitrary reason why Fallout 4 isn't a RPG or why some perks count while others don't, completely ignoring that the vast majority of what they say 'doesn't count' was in the previous Fallout games anyway.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
Also the "You can get them all on one character" is a fucking stupid reason to disqualify them as perks. The only reasonable way to get all the perks on one character in Fallout 4 is to collect every magazine and get 270 levels. Seeing as I've seen people play for 90+ hours and only reach level 60 I doubt it's likely many people will get more than half the perks in the game on one character.
[QUOTE=Skyward;49133602]Oh yes. There's even people that say FO4 isn't even an RPG.[/QUOTE]
Is it an RPG tho?
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49133913]I wouldn't call 70+ perks that actually impact gameplay, open choice of weapons with a complete crafting system to improve them, level progression and having to specialize your character to be efficient just small RPG elements.
"Small RPG elements" is when you have access to a basic upgrade system that's still hidden linear progression with a hint of choice, with no actual leveling or experience or meaningful choices.[/QUOTE]
Directed at first paragraph: bar crafting, this is literally description of Borderlands gameplay. Borderlands RPG now?
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49139273]Is it an RPG tho?
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
Directed at first paragraph: bar crafting, this is literally description of Borderlands gameplay. Borderlands RPG now?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Dpqu7hI.png[/img]
Why are you people so obsessed with claiming things aren't RPGs when they are. There's a ton of different types of RPG, it's not all Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49139373]Yes.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Dpqu7hI.png[/img]
Why are you people so obsessed with claiming things aren't RPGs when they are. There's a ton of different types of RPG, it's not all Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.[/QUOTE]
No you don't understand, JRPGs are simply not RPGs because you don't make your character!!!
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49139373]Yes.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Dpqu7hI.png[/img]
Why are you people so obsessed with claiming things aren't RPGs when they are. There's a ton of different types of RPG, it's not all Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.[/QUOTE]
Then it all makes things even more confusing now. What is the definition of an RPG game? Pretty much in every game you play, you act out a certain role, therefore everything is an RPG in a nutshell?
[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;49140134]therefore everything is an RPG in a nutshell?[/QUOTE]
Yes. There is a reason there are a fuckload of specific sub-genres.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49138586]Okay firstly, I wasn't even counting perk levels, that would be stupid. If I did that I could easily say Fallout 4 has ove 300 perks and someone would immediately point out that perk levels aren't new perks.
Secondly, you can't arbitrarily say a type of perk doesn't count for one game while ignoring that that type of perk has been in all the games. Most perks don't have huge effects on gameplay and only offer small bonuses, if we aren't counting them thn all the games lose a lot of perks from their count.
If we aren't allowed to count "+5%" boosts then of Fallout 3's original 58 regular perks 38 need to be counted as 'not really perks'. Out of New Vegas' 86 original regular perks 42 need to be counted as 'not really perks'. You can't just say "Well in this game they don't do much so they don't count, but in the other games they still count even though they're the exact same." At least in Fallout 4 you don't have to waste a level for 5% increase to critical hits or +3DT.
As far as I can see people are just making up completely arbitrary reason why Fallout 4 isn't a RPG or why some perks count while others don't, completely ignoring that the vast majority of what they say 'doesn't count' was in the previous Fallout games anyway.
[editline]18th November 2015[/editline]
Also the "You can get them all on one character" is a fucking stupid reason to disqualify them as perks. The only reasonable way to get all the perks on one character in Fallout 4 is to collect every magazine and get 270 levels. Seeing as I've seen people play for 90+ hours and only reach level 60 I doubt it's likely many people will get more than half the perks in the game on one character.[/QUOTE]
That moment when people saying its not an RPG because of something but because it's removed what made it the RPG it was.
Also, anyone who goes running to JRPG as an excuse needs to realize they just put a RPG system(if you can call it that) that's already been differentiated.
There probably should be classifications on C-RPGs and A-RPGs though since games of both genres are both technically RPGs, but in completely different ways.
Especially now since there seems to be a resurgence of C(omputer/classic)-RPGs (Wasteland 2/Divinity OS) along with the modern brand of Action-RPGS (Witcher, Fallout, Mass Effect).
[QUOTE=simkas;49117945]Fallout: New Florida would be rad. Imagine all the irradiated swamps with fucked up mutated alligators and other weird fucked up swamp creatures.[/QUOTE]
Fucking Mirelurks would be 80% of the enemies.
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