#YesAllWomen: California rampage sparks Twitter response - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44914541]No, this is an awful response and you have no way of proving it's true in the slightest. This is tantamount to shrugging your shoulders and giving up. IMPROVING OUR CULTURAL ATTITUDES IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF IMPROVING THE WELFARE OF MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE. We can't forcibly make every American submit to mental health screenings. There are no magic pills we can force people to take that "cures" them of a broad range of various kinds of psychological disorders. Public healthcare and mental healthcare in public education can help the problem somewhat but unless we start to actually take a step back and reappraise our fucked up culture, with all of it's glorification of violence and all it's sexism and all it's racism then mentally ill, vulnerable people are still going to have that awfulness filter into their psyches and come to drastic, violent conclusions. Don't just fucking shake your head and say "well it's always going to happen anyway."[/QUOTE] You're trying to solve a problem by eliminating the catalyst. That makes no sense, it will NEVER happen. Being pushed to the point of mass murder by anything is not healthy and shouldn't happen under any circumstances. You can't ignore an obvious mental condition and claim that his response was entirely caused by his attitude. He was mentally ill, and was pushed to the breaking point by a catalyst. Removing that catalyst solves the problem short term, but unless you can ensure that that person will never be pushed the the breaking point by anything ever (which you factually cannot ensure) then it will just keep happening.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914572]You're trying to solve a problem by eliminating the catalyst. That makes no sense, it will NEVER happen. Being pushed to the point of mass murder by anything is not healthy and shouldn't happen under any circumstances. You can't ignore an obvious mental condition and claim that his response was entirely caused by his attitude. He was mentally ill, and was pushed to the breaking point by a catalyst. Removing that catalyst solves the problem short term, but unless you can ensure that that person will never be pushed the the breaking point by anything ever (which you factually cannot ensure) then it will just keep happening.[/QUOTE] Why not do both? What's wrong with changing people's perceptions on violence, sex, and whatnot while at the same time improving the condition of mental healthcare?

How about improving mental health but ALSO improving how culture views women and sex Neither on its own will fix it completely, and ignoring either one is just dumb.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914479]Because apparently the world is only a dangerous place for women.[/QUOTE] It's not only dangerous for women, but in countries like the US it's certainly more dangerous for women.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914572]You're trying to solve a problem by eliminating the catalyst. That makes no sense, it will NEVER happen. Being pushed to the point of mass murder by anything is not healthy and shouldn't happen under any circumstances. You can't ignore an obvious mental condition and claim that his response was entirely caused by his attitude. He was mentally ill, and was pushed to the breaking point by a catalyst. Removing that catalyst solves the problem short term, but unless you can ensure that that person will never be pushed the the breaking point by anything ever (which you factually cannot ensure) then it will just keep happening.[/QUOTE] [b]Okay, fucking give up then[/b]. At least stop mincing your words and say, flat out, "we shouldn't bother to try to fix our social attitudes because it won't ever solve anything" and sigh and shake your head at the next two dozen shootings. But please stop pretending that you care about this if all you're going to do is wave the phrase "mental healthcare" around whenever someone murders a bunch of people without having the slightest fucking clue what that means or what that entails. If you've given up at least own up to it.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;44914606]Why not do both? What's wrong with changing people's perceptions on violence, sex, and whatnot while at the same time improving the condition of mental healthcare?[/QUOTE] Because it's a hopeless endeavour, changing this kid's mind on the issue would have been impossible because he was so fucking deluded that there's really nothing you can do. If this was a society-wide issue then sure, but the fact of the matter is that the people who believe what this kid did are a tiny tiny minority of people, and you'll never get a belief down to 0% of the population, it's just an unattainable goal to completely remove an opinion from the population.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914572]You're trying to solve a problem by eliminating the catalyst. That makes no sense, it will NEVER happen. Being pushed to the point of mass murder by anything is not healthy and shouldn't happen under any circumstances. You can't ignore an obvious mental condition and claim that his response was entirely caused by his attitude. He was mentally ill, and was pushed to the breaking point by a catalyst. Removing that catalyst solves the problem short term, but unless you can ensure that that person will never be pushed the the breaking point by anything ever (which you factually cannot ensure) then it will just keep happening.[/QUOTE] You make it sound like mentally ill people are predisposed to going on shooting sprees. Being mentally ill does not mean that you're going to become violent at the drop of a pen.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914230]Fucking christ I hate these kinds of people. The issue here isn't anything gender-related. The issue is that he was a fucking lunatic. If I go downtown and shoot up a store because I was stuck in traffic and it pissed me off, would you start crying about how "traffic is driving people to commit murder, we must solve this problem." No, you fucking find out why a clearly psychotic person was able to go unnoticed up until the point where they started shooting people. The catalyst isn't important, the fact that they were insane and did not receive help or even recognition is. Case in point, this situation. Who cares why he started shooting people, how about instead you focus on why the cops knew that he was batshit crazy and chose to do fuck all about it.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously saying it's just as easy for a traffic jam to start a mass murder spree as it is for a sense of being entitled to women?

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44914622][b]Okay, fucking give up then[/b]. At least stop mincing your words and say, flat out, "we shouldn't bother to try to fix our social attitudes because it won't ever solve anything" and sigh and shake your head at the next two dozen shootings. But please stop pretending that you care about this if all you're going to do is wave the phrase "mental healthcare" around whenever someone murders a bunch of people without having the slightest fucking clue what that means or what that entails. If you've given up at least own up to it.[/QUOTE] I'm not giving up come on, you're saying you can solve this problem by removing the catalyst, and completely ignoring the fact that the reason this happened was because of a preventable yet ignored mental illness. He could have easily been given treatment, yet his condition was completely ignored and treated as no big deal.

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;44914614]It's not only dangerous for women, but in countries like the US it's certainly more dangerous for women.[/QUOTE] Are you serious? Please look up crimes statistics by gender. [QUOTE]From 2002 to 2011, the average homicide rate for males was 3.6 times higher than the rate for females.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863[/url]

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914623]Because it's a hopeless endeavour, changing this kid's mind on the issue would have been impossible because he was so fucking deluded that there's really nothing you can do. If this was a society-wide issue then sure, but the fact of the matter is that the people who believe what this kid did are a tiny tiny minority of people, and you'll never get a belief down to 0% of the population, it's just an unattainable goal to completely remove an opinion from the population.[/QUOTE] you'll never completely stop anything so why even try it's impossible to stop all murders so fuck it murder is legal now people will always steal things so disband the police force why waste the effort

[QUOTE=Xenomoose;44914606]Why not do both? What's wrong with changing people's perceptions on violence, sex, and whatnot while at the same time improving the condition of mental healthcare?[/QUOTE] Yo it's because anything that seems related to "feminism" is super unpalatable to a bunch of mouthbreathing dorks. The idea that women face some kind of larger social hardship makes them so uncomfortable that they're going to go out of their way to oppose the idea that sexism had anything to do with this obviously sexist act of violence. They make the problem even worse.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;44914502] More that it's needed than it being a thing.[/QUOTE] It's not really needed it's just a caring sentiment

[QUOTE=Last or First;44914648]you'll never completely stop anything so why even try it's impossible to stop all murders so fuck it murder is legal now people will always steal things so disband the police force why waste the effort[/QUOTE] Hello class welcome to completely missing the point and reading half of a person's post 101. I'm your professor, Last or First.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914642]I'm not giving up come on, you're saying you can solve this problem by removing the catalyst, and completely ignoring the fact that the reason this happened was because of a preventable yet ignored mental illness. He could have easily been given treatment, yet his condition was completely ignored and treated as no big deal.[/QUOTE] No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying; I'm saying that we need to respond to both problems, holistically. You're the person who's saying that fixing our culture of rampant misogyny wouldn't have stopped this shooting and so we shouldn't bother doing anything about it at all.

[QUOTE=KennyAwsum;44913646]The guy was a fucking psycho. Treat him as one, don't over exaggerate the situation at hand. He was lonely as shit and he couldn't take that. Someone should have gotten him psychological support, for fucksake. Its not like his family didn't know about this before it happened so why not? [IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/75090000/jpg/_75090903_main.jpg[/IMG] This youtube comment ugh What the Actual Fuck, especially the last line. 6 People are fucking dead, Male too. You fucking idiot.[/QUOTE] That's pretty much the most typical example of a troll ever. Tbh though, I wouldn't equate the actions of one psychopath to society at large.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44914644]Are you serious? Please look up crimes statistics by gender. [url]http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863[/url][/QUOTE] Because homicide is the only crime in the world, right? There's no such thing as sexual assault or outright rape, is there?

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44914683]No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying; I'm saying that we need to respond to both problems, holistically. You're the person who's saying that fixing our culture of rampant misogyny wouldn't have stopped this shooting and so we shouldn't bother doing anything about it at all.[/QUOTE] You're mistaken in believing that this kid's opinion on women is a widespread issue, when in reality it's an incredibly tiny minority. There are stupid people in the world, welcome. You couldn't have changed Elliot's mind if you tried because he was a fucking idiot. The problem here isn't that he was a fucking idiot, it's that he shot people.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44914448]Yo I went over this in the last thread but no mental illness can transform a person into a psychotic gunman all on it's own; there isn't any disorder in the DSMV which causes that to happen. Mental illnesses like schizoaffective disorders and antisocial personality disorder can merely make someone unstable, but if you just look at this dude's youtube videos and manifesto it's obvious that there was a calculated, ideological element to his violence and that is not something which just appears out of thin air. Denying that larger cultural attitudes about women played any part in this guy's attitudes despite all of the blindingly obvious evidence to the contrary and just shrugging your shoulders and saying "well he was just crazy" is fucking stupid and willfully ignorant and is the absolute worse response. I wish all the clueless fucks who spend all their time talking up the importance of "mental healthcare" took just a little bit of time to actually try to understand what they're talking about because, if they did, they wouldn't ignore the huge role that external cultural factors play in shaping the ways mental illnesses manifest themselves.[/QUOTE] The problem is that the people debating this are looking at the causes like it's linear; there are so many factors at play that contributed to this shooting. There's no single direct cause and people need to realise this.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914713]You're mistaken in believing that this kid's opinion on women is a widespread issue, when in reality it's an incredibly tiny minority.[/QUOTE] Wrong. If you can't see that western societies have loads of misogyny as a constant background radiation you need to open up more.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914732]Wrong.[/QUOTE] Oh fuck off. You seriously think that the likes of R9K are the opinion of the majority of men? If so, you need to get out more, and stop talking to stupid people who actually believe that shit.

Both the general attitude to mental illness and the recent mra/redpill culture (which itself stemmed from much wider cultural attitudes) were factors in what happened why are people suggesting it has to be one or the other?

[QUOTE=wraithcat;44914700]That's pretty much the most typical example of a troll ever. Tbh though, I wouldn't equate the actions of one psychopath to society at large.[/QUOTE] Can we please stop pretending "trolling" doesn't mean anything? The internet is real; everybody in our society uses it now. That guy, for whatever reason, specifically decided to troll in [i]that[/i] way instead of posting an angry comment on a Justin Bieber vid or whatever. Even if that specific post was made up by a (non-sexist? do you think he balances it out by posting misandrist comments on other vids?) troll it doesn't make it any less threatening and you could find a million more sincere misogynist youtube comments with only the tiniest bit of effort. "Trolling" isn't an excuse for posting about how you want to kill women, and I doubt that guy rolled some 20 sided die or something to select "women" as the group he was going to fantasize about murdering and that, deep down, he's a decent guy with a bad hobby.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914738]Oh fuck off. You seriously think that the likes of R9K are the opinion of the majority of men? If so, you need to get out more, and stop talking to stupid people who actually believe that shit.[/QUOTE] Don't need to be /r9K/ to be utterly fucking toxic - Carbon Monoxide will kill you just as well as hydrofluoric acid.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;44914644]Are you serious? Please look up crimes statistics by gender. [url]http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=4863[/url][/QUOTE] Murder is only one part of "danger". Rape, objectification, assault, theft, psychological attack, etc. are just as important here. Women have to deal with a lot of things men don't just because they've got boob lumps on their chests.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;44914749]Can we please stop pretending "trolling" doesn't mean anything? The internet is real; everybody in our society uses it now. That guy, for whatever reason, specifically decided to troll in [i]that[/i] way instead of posting an angry comment on a Justin Bieber vid or whatever. Even if that specific post was made up by a (non-sexist? do you think he balances it out by posting misandrist comments on other vids?) troll it doesn't make it any less threatening and you could find a million more sincere misogynist youtube comments with only the tiniest bit of effort. "Trolling" isn't an excuse for posting about how you want to kill women, and I doubt that guy rolled some 20 sided die or something to select "women" as the group he was going to fantasize about murdering and that, deep down, he's a decent guy with a bad hobby.[/QUOTE] I don't think you actually know what trolling means. He picked that video to post that comment on because he knew it would piss people off the most. Hence why he chose it.

[QUOTE=RobbL;44914743] why are people suggesting it has to be one or the other?[/QUOTE] because one of those conclusions makes them uncomfortable and they're willing to throw progress out the window in order to assuage their discomfort.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914738]Oh fuck off. You seriously think that the likes of R9K are the opinion of the majority of men? If so, you need to get out more, and stop talking to stupid people who actually believe that shit.[/QUOTE] First off, no need to be rude like this. Second, no. But while they're not representative of the opinion of the majority of men, they're basically an [B]evolution of the same phenomenons[/B] present throughout society. Misogyny is institutional. It's a disdain for women and for womanhood that's backed up by social power. R9K, MRAs, The Red Pill, whatever you wanna name it... it wouldn't exist without it.

[QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914676]Hello class welcome to completely missing the point and reading half of a person's post 101. I'm your professor, Last or First.[/QUOTE] "Why not do both?" "Because it's a hopeless endeavor." What exactly did I miss? [QUOTE=l337k1ll4;44914713]You're mistaken in believing that this kid's opinion on women is a widespread issue, when in reality it's an incredibly tiny minority. There are stupid people in the world, welcome. You couldn't have changed Elliot's mind if you tried because he was a fucking idiot. The problem here isn't that he was a fucking idiot, it's that he shot people.[/QUOTE] People with views his extreme are a minority, yes. But there are still a large number of people who hold similar yet less extreme views on women. Do you think he would have as easily fallen into his extreme viewpoint if there weren't communities online who agreed with most of what he said? Sure, the communities are nowhere near a majority, but they aren't insignificant. These communities themselves are extreme versions of what society at large thinks of women. Sure, Elliot would probably still eventually end up with the same or a similar view if no one backed him up, but it would take longer, or it would be less extreme, or he might question himself more.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914768]First off, no need to be rude like this. Second, no. But while they're not representative of the opinion of the majority of men, they're basically an [B]evolution of the same phenomenons[/B] present throughout society. Misogyny is institutional. It's a disdain for women and for womanhood that's backed up by social power. R9K, MRAs, The Red Pill, whatever you wanna name it... it wouldn't exist without it.[/QUOTE] I don't get what you think is the real problem then. The problem in this situation is that he believed that he was a god among men and that someone of his stature is entitled to women and that if someone else got the women instead of him it was their fault. This is an exaggeration of a harmless defense mechanism equally prevalent in all genders.