Former Valve employee seeks $3.1M in trans. discrimination suit - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Buck.;50389543]You mean you would rather be what you want to be than what you were biologically born.[/QUOTE] Did you not read what I posted earlier? This is not me "wanting" to be trans, I hate that. I would rather be who I am more comfortable being, and that is a woman. You cannot assign who I am just to what physical traits I have. You don't get to decide that, nor does society, or anyone else. I choose who I am, and you choose who you are. When you said you came from a place of indifference and ignorance, it's really showing. I'd rather not try and discuss this with you because you clearly disregard anything that I or others say, and instead resort to the same cruel line of thought that everyone else uses when their precious worldview is shattered and they find out that others are different.

[QUOTE=Buck.;50389495]Again, wasn't intentionally trying to be mean but at the same time I'm not trying to shelter anybody either, my opinions come largely from a place of indifference and ignorance. All I know now that the way trans people think cannot be explained rationally. I just don't see how anyone can hate their body so much that they would rather have to deal with most of the world shitting on them and in some cases losing their friends and family. Surely that will just make you feel worse. I'd say trying to cure the thing in your head that's making you hate yourself would be the better thing to do but even suggesting that is considered inappropriate or immoral now. We help anorexics by tackling their self confidence and body image issues, not by telling them "Oh yes, just stop eating and turn go full skeleton. You're so brave, I'm proud of you!" I've meant it more along the lines of "completing the transition", whether or not you're born with it is not the point, people will only change their opinion of you once you decide to transition. You're must be fully aware that once you make your transition you're trading self loathing for discrimination and marginalization.[/QUOTE] Transitioning IS the cure. It's the most widely accepted method with dealing with Gender Dysphoria and has shown to vastly improve the quality of life with those who complete it. Please actually go read up on this subject, I made a post in the transgender/crossdressing thread on the positive effects of transitioning. You talk about "Enabling", but the thing is enabling anorexia and "enabling" transgender transitioning are 2 completely different things. Anorexia is entirely self destructive while being transgender isn't outside of the social factors (Which aren't transgender people's faults). And "enabling" transgender people has shown to have positive effects; so why shouldn't we do that? Because you "feel" it's wrong? The science is there. You even admit you're arguing from ignorance so please don't argue with transgender people over what they suffer because it "doesn't make sense." The best comparison really is a mental illness in that the feelings and thoughts are things you have no control over and can't do anything about. The main difference is that mental illnesses are disturbing, destructive and enabling them only makes them worse. Being trans isn't destructive, only disturbing if you can't get over your perceived gender norms, and enabling it has benefits to those who go through the transition. Behavioral therapy has been shown to have no effect whatsoever on trying to "cure" transgender people as it does with mentally ill people. There are no behavior changing medications for transgender people. Hormones and surgery are what has been proven to help them the most.

[QUOTE=Buck.;50389543]You mean you would rather be what you want to be than what you were biologically born.[/QUOTE] You're fighting a losing battle trying to explain away a legitimate medical condition as glorified cross-dressing dude.

[QUOTE=srobins;50389673]You're fighting a losing battle trying to explain away a legitimate medical condition as glorified cross-dressing dude.[/QUOTE] What do you mean by this?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;50389699]What do you mean by this?[/QUOTE] Pretty sure they're saying being transgender is a real medical condition that shouldn't marginalized, which is what Buck. is doing.

[QUOTE=Lysander32;50389745]Pretty sure they're saying being transgender is a real medical condition that shouldn't marginalized, which is what Buck. is doing.[/QUOTE] Was having trouble discerning what they meant

I'm sorry, I said right away I was uneducated about this, I just assumed that it could only get worse when you transition. Didn't think that the reason people would put themselves through all that is because it's better than doing nothing. I was thinking it was more of an annoyance like thinking you're too short or something rather than a constant weight on your chest. Again I'm just a stupid guy on the Internet but for what it's worth I apologise.

[QUOTE=Buck.;50389865] Again I'm just a stupid guy on the Internet but for what it's worth I apologise.[/QUOTE] Guess what? I forgive you, and I'm sure a lot of other people will too. The fact that you are understanding where we're coming from and aren't just writing it off is really appreciated, and I'm sorry myself for getting hostile, no need to sling shit on my part. Just understand that in the future, when you see people being sensitive about these issues, there's a lot more to it than sheer appearance alone.

[QUOTE=Buck.;50389865]I'm sorry, I said right away I was uneducated about this, I just assumed that it could only get worse when you transition. Didn't think that the reason people would put themselves through all that is because it's better than doing nothing. I was thinking it was more of an annoyance like thinking you're too short or something rather than a constant weight on your chest. Again I'm just a stupid guy on the Internet but for what it's worth I apologise.[/QUOTE] It's good you came from just ignorance of the issue as opposed to malice and you're willing to take time to understand. I had trouble understanding it at first and didn't quite know how it worked too, it's kind of a natural response to try and come up with solutions in ways that are familiar to you when faced with something new (like you suggested that enabling being transgender is wrong, you might have drawn that from thinking it's a behavioral disorder as that's familiar; Being transgender is a completely alien concept, so you might have tried to find a way to make it familiar.) It's a natural response, but it's good to consult people who experience such things such as gender dysphoria and expert responses (such as those studies I linked in the CD/TG thread) if you're confused by something. Expert analysis isn't automatically right but if there's a good amount of evidence coming to the same results through these studies then their answers are likely to have a lot of merit.

I can't say much on the original topic of this thread because the trans discrimination, if it happened, doesn't seem to be immediately connected to the termination of her contract itself (though it's obviously still an issue that needs to be remedied by ridding the company of the supervisor in question). But it's nice to see someone getting educated on transgender issues without them getting unreasonably angry. Don't see that very often, unfortunately. Grate job. :toot:

[QUOTE=Lysander32;50390019]It's good you came from just ignorance of the issue as opposed to malice and you're willing to take time to understand. I had trouble understanding it at first and didn't quite know how it worked too, [B]it's kind of a natural response to try and come up with solutions in ways that are familiar to you when faced with something new[/B] (like you suggested that enabling being transgender is wrong, you might have drawn that from thinking it's a behavioral disorder as that's familiar; Being transgender is a completely alien concept, so you might have tried to find a way to make it familiar.) It's a natural response, but it's good to consult people who experience such things such as gender dysphoria and expert responses (such as those studies I linked in the CD/TG thread) if you're confused by something. Expert analysis isn't automatically right but if there's a good amount of evidence coming to the same results through these studies then their answers are likely to have a lot of merit.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's basically this. I threw out some ideas, they didn't stand up to facts, I've learned some things, case closed. I was the same about gay people before I actually met some and drank Vodka with them. I guess it's hard to empathise when you don't understand it in the first place, and it's difficult to understand if it's not something you struggled with yourself.

[QUOTE=TheDrunkenOne;50385111]They should make the supervisor pay those 3M tbh, not the company itself. Fuckin make him bankrupt[/QUOTE] Sorry, I don't see the point in ruining someone's entire life and taking everything away just because they dared cross the Trans Machine (ie hurt someones feelings possibly)

Predicting bullshit case that valve wins easily

[QUOTE=Buck.;50389495]Again, wasn't intentionally trying to be mean but at the same time I'm not trying to shelter anybody either, my opinions come largely from a place of indifference and ignorance. All I know now that the way trans people think cannot be explained rationally. I just don't see how anyone can hate their body so much that they would rather have to deal with most of the world shitting on them and in some cases losing their friends and family. Surely that will just make you feel worse.[/QUOTE] If I had not started my transition I likely would've succeeded in killing myself now. It, to put it mildly, is a life or death decision. [quote] I'd say trying to cure the thing in your head that's making you hate yourself would be the better thing to do but even suggesting that is considered inappropriate or immoral now. We help anorexics by tackling their self confidence and body image issues, not by telling them "Oh yes, just stop eating and turn go full skeleton. You're so brave, I'm proud of you!"[/quote] The only way that could possibly work is you somehow managed to strip us of our identity and alter the actual physical structure of our brains (several studies show marked differences in brain structure between transgender people and people with a gender identity congruent with their body, in other words mtf (male to female) brains show several characteristics of a "female" brain and vice versa for FtMs. [quote] I've meant it more along the lines of "completing the transition", whether or not you're born with it is not the point, people will only change their opinion of you once you decide to transition. You're must be fully aware that once you make your transition you're trading self loathing for discrimination and marginalization.[/quote] Its more often then not a life or death decision. A very good portion of pretransition transgender people are VERY suicidal and emotionally unstable. I myself had been hospitalized 5 or 6 times due to severe psychiatric emergency (AKA I tried to kill myself). I am not the minority of trans people in this regard. To put it simply, in order to actually have a meaningful and long life transition is a necessity. Discrimination and marginalization are things that can be fixed anyways. [editline]25th May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Bazsil;50390183]Sorry, I don't see the point in ruining someone's entire life and taking everything away just because they dared cross the Trans Machine (ie hurt someones feelings possibly)[/QUOTE] You have some serious misconceptions in regards to the transgender community, and if I recall this isn't the first thread like this you've participated in.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;50390342]You have some serious misconceptions in regards to the transgender community, and if I recall this isn't the first thread like this you've participated in.[/QUOTE] So someone should be whisked into $3.1mil debt because they called someone "it"? Positively ludicrous.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50390465]So someone should be whisked into $3.1mil debt because they called someone "it"? Positively ludicrous.[/QUOTE] I think it's because this is just one person, not some kind of transgender conspiracy.

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50390465]So someone should be whisked into $3.1mil debt because they called someone "it"? Positively ludicrous.[/QUOTE] The article is about a single person. He made a statement encompassing the entire transgender community

He's not talking about the case, he's talking about the animosity to the accused from trans people in the thread [editline]25th May 2016[/editline] Oh well [editline]25th May 2016[/editline] How long do these things take? Itching for results

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50390569]How long do these things take? Itching for results[/QUOTE] It was only filed last month. It could take anywhere from another year to another decade depending on what they try to dredge up and how many continuances they can score.

Whether she was called "it" or not, $3.1 million seems like too much money to be claiming for something as trivial as this, it isn't like the entire office was giving her shit, just one supervisor. And we don't even know if these accusations are true.

[QUOTE=PelPix123;50389163]One thing I've learned about Valve is that Valve is not full of people who want to please anybody, it's full of people who develop video games because they enjoy developing video games. It's purely motivated by their own self-interest in developing video games. This is not necessarily a bad thing, that's just what Valve is in a straightforward sense: A collection of individuals that want to make video games. Not sell video games, not market video games, not even necessarily have other people enjoy video games--[I]make[/I] video games. Valve is a place where people can selfishly enable their destructive addiction to innovation.[/QUOTE] 5% making video games, 95% making virtual hats

Man, are the people that thick to think that the 3.1 million will not go down to 31k at most?

[QUOTE=PelPix123;50389163]One thing I've learned about Valve is that Valve is not full of people who want to please anybody, it's full of people who develop video games because they enjoy developing video games. It's purely motivated by their own self-interest in developing video games. This is not necessarily a bad thing, that's just what Valve is in a straightforward sense: A collection of individuals that want to make video games. Not sell video games, not market video games, not even necessarily have other people enjoy video games--[I]make[/I] video games. Valve is a place where people can selfishly enable their destructive addiction to innovation.[/QUOTE] Valve strikes me is thet ype of company that wants to push games in many directions (not just graphics, or some other gimmick), and now that they have Steam as a solid revenue source, they can do so. Shit, I remember reading that Half-Life 1 was originally meant to be a "quickie" game to get their name in the market so that they could start making really innovative stuff.

[QUOTE=PelPix123;50389614]selfishly feeding my addiction to collaboratively making video games for my own enjoyment is my greatest dream and ultimate life goal. I'm not placing value judgments on "selfish" or "addiction" You're misunderstanding me completely. The fact that Valve is a place where you can selfishly indulge in making video games without marketing pressure or management is what makes it [B]great[/B]. This post was a [I]compliment.[/I][/QUOTE] Now you've just replied to the last throwaway line of my post. My point was that Valve's not that at all based on what we know. It's not some "everyone do what they wanna do, go nuts!" paradise for people with passion. Top-down pressure is replaced by peer pressure, manager layers are replaced by cliques. We've got the new employee booklet's detail on how their democratic processes work and we've got impressions of ex-employees like Kim Swift and Jeri Ellsworth on how that theory - in their cases - worked in practice, with emphasis on the negative obviously.

[QUOTE=J!NX;50385105]Tbh I would easily expect Valve to be the least offensive company to work with ever they'd probably be about as offensive as a freshly bathed and dried basket of kittens[/QUOTE] Valve is actually probably quite offensive due to the flat, no management nature of it. Which means cliques can form easily and there's no HR and corporate to keep people from making excesses.

[QUOTE=wraithcat;50391697]Valve is actually probably quite offensive due to the flat, no management nature of it. Which means cliques can form easily and there's no HR and corporate to keep people from making excesses.[/QUOTE] do you honestly believe people just run around at valve and do whatever the hell they want with no supervision

Yeah that's pretty stupid since the story in the OP is about someone getting fired and accusing their [b][i]supervisor[/b][/i] [editline]25th May 2016[/editline] Like, I watched the same video where they claimed they let their employees do what they want but it's not meant to be taken that literally like I see people do [editline]25th May 2016[/editline] I think they meant they let workers choose which project they work on instead of assigning them to something they might not have a passion for.

[QUOTE=Kylel999;50391398]5% making video games, 95% making virtual hats[/QUOTE] For the last time, Valve doesn't make cosmetics, they have the community do all that shit via an automatic importer. It's more akin to shoveling them into the game than making them.

It's more like 5% making video games and 95% working to improve steam and the industry as a whole from what I've seen them do. They have their hands in hardware companies and other such things, they were helping oculus from the beginning and are working with HTC/Google on the Vive [editline]25th May 2016[/editline] IIRC some economist handles the way they make their money, which is why the cosmetics and such are around, and a lot of it seems to go to good places.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the law has a high standard for harassment claims in general. Standard disclaimer: IANAL. First, in this case, the plaintiff would have to show that they were working in a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment]hostile work environment[/url]. This means that being called 'it' by a supervisor once is completely inappropriate and may be subject to disciplinary action, but does not necessarily constitute harassment unless it is part of a pattern of intimidating, hostile, or offensive behavior at the workplace. Secondly, the work environment must be considered intimidating, hostile, or offensive to a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person][i]reasonable person[/i][/url]. A reasonable person is not an average person or a typical person: it is a specific legal construct detailing how the issue should be analyzed. As Wikipedia mentions, the reasonable person will consider the following in making their judgment: "the foreseeable risk of harm his actions create versus the utility of his actions; the extent of the risk so created; the likelihood such risk will actually cause harm to others; any alternatives of lesser risk, and the costs of those alternatives." All of these issues will need to be evaluated in determining whether the plaintiff was subject to a hostile work environment.