France to fine men up to€750 for wolf-whistling, making sexual comments to women - Sensationalist Headlines

Especially since there are tons of documented cases of women being assaulted in public for not responding or responding negatively to catcalling.

I used to have the attitude that "wolf whistling is nothing, people are petty to complain about it" until I spoke to a friend who had it happen to her pretty regularly. She told me that it made her feel uncomfortable and that if she has had a bad day, it can sometimes be the straw that breaks the camel's back. My point is that, as a guy, I didn't think much of it, because you don't when you're not the one at the receiving end of it. I believe this law can have some positive impact if it is used as a way to deter people from doing it instead of severely fining people.

Making a loudly proclaimed sexual assessment of a stranger in public is definitely harassment, It's only something a shithead does. I'm fine with people being handed smacks for doing it.

I don't see why people are making a big deal out of this, People who do cat-calling are already assholes, and they have to actually be caught in the act. This hurts literally nobody except assholes

How do you think it feels to have total random strangers remind you nearly every single day that being sexually assaulted in a very real possibility for you?

imagine if a woman took a bloke to court for wolf whistling at her, but he actually wolf whistled at someone behind her. how embarrassing would that be. "don't flatter yourself love"

You're a nut if you think a significant portion of the people who whistle at people in public are doing it to threaten rape. The public isn't your safe space where everyone should be forced to cater to your insecurities. People should be allowed to express interest to people and no it's not harrassment to do so, people are already all retreating to social media, you don't need more excuses to never speak to a soul in public because it may be misinterpreted. Harrassment is defined by persistence, unless someone is literally chasing you around after you've rebuffed them, freedom of speech comes first. It's likely a law like this would end up being selectively and incorrectly applied by officers more often than it's applied correctly, consider the circumstances neccasarry to actually enforce this. There will be many more situations where a bored officer either makes up a story, misinterprets a situation, or any number of situations depending on implemtation than the actual instance of an officer being near someone harassing someone and being able to fine them. It's the definition of a feel good law that would just cause more problems, and therefore doesnt meet the classic standard of it being better to let guilty go free rather than chance an innocent being hit. I don't think enough people realize that creating a law that can be abused and misinterpreted is a much bigger deal than feelings. Abuses of power and misapplications of law are a fact of reality and will happen in greater proportion with more laws. On top of the other chilling effects and abridgement of freedoms, you need to weigh this against more people being made a lot more uncomfortable than anything whistling could have done.

I'm genuinely curious if any of you that live in europe have ever seen or have had people do this towards you because I've legit never seen it and always thought of it as a yank thing.

Insert a friend or loved one into the situation, your sister maybe- Where some random horny moron blurts out something like; "HURR NICE TIDDIES GURL MHRPRHR..!!!" And have a real hard think about how that phrase resonated in her head. And how you feel about the guy in question. You can also flip the genders if you like, same deal. If you're not a weirdo you'll probably come to the conclusion that nobody in their right mind would want to stop and have a sex-conversation on the open street corner. Those conversations occur in bars, that is the context where its socially acceptable.

Mate I don't know if you've ever been in a large French city but I sure as fuck would not feel safe in them as a lone woman. There's a pretty significant issue with chauvinism in this country partly because the notion that catcalling women and pushing them to give you attention was allowed to go on for many, many years and any complaints from women were shut down with typical "boys will be boys, you should appreciate the attention, just ignore it if you don't like it" shit answers. Every single woman I've met when I was at uni has had at least one story of being accosted this way when just minding their own business. A guy back then who was in his late 30s who decided to go back to uni legitimately asked a 17-something year old teenager if she wanted to "try it out with an older man" while she was talking with a completely separate set of people about her boyfriend. I even had to lie about knowing a girl once because two dudes from Marseilles were trying to pay me for her name and phone number. It's not about making "the public" a "safe space", it's about making going outside not a deprecating chore where you constantly have to stop and deal with thirsty motherfuckers. It's mentally exhausting, it's morally extenuating, and for some people it's a massive and constant threat to their self-esteem. You can live in your fantasy world where this sort of shit does not matter but I've seen enough to know it does.

What we need is minority report with a lust meter. If you look at women in a lustful way, the meter starts filling up fast, and then they come and take you away.

Of the top of my head: When I was working construction work at my former school as a summer job, one of my colleagues whistled at a girl to get her attention and proceeded to grab his dick. Worth mentioning that I knew the girl and that she was barely 18 at the time. Another incident was two mates of mine coming home one night and having a drag queen yelling "Oh booooys" And these sorts of things are pretty common in a gypsy neighborhood here. Tho I have heard the women basically calling catcallers small dicks/trashfuckers/etc.

catcalling i get, but fining whistlers is a bit much, assuming we're talking about wolf whistling just by itself. though i don't know much about France or it's culture so there's probably something i'm missing.

It usually preceded by intense ogling and then a whistle as she passes, you know when you're being looked at.

How about approaching them in a space where they have the ability to leave, talking to them, being friendly and then respectfully accepting their rejection if it happens? There are a million ways to "express interest" which aren't wolf whistling. People aren't going to get prosecuted for flirting with people, they're going to get prosecuted for making people feel unsafe because they feel entitled to yell at others what they think of their bodies.

not what I said. Jesus Christ. Catcalling is not "expressing interest". It's one thing for someone to say "you have pretty eyes" in starbucks or something vs getting "NICE ASS" yelled at you out of the window of a car, or having a dude sitting on a bus bench go "hey sexy. hey. HEY! YO, WHY YOU IGNORING ME" as you duck your head and try to walk away as quickly as possible as he gets louder. It's not 'abridging a freedom' to not allow for targeted harassment of individuals.

So much salt in this thread, probably from dudes who think it's alright to cat-call or whistle at a woman. Please tell me how the enforcement of this law is any different than any other sexual harassment law.

I feel this may be a good read for some people about the appropriateness of catcalling. https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/5fDmzLv72PoiLbmDehGrhXMWO3s=/0x0:2600x6371/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:2600x6371):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/674480/should-you-catcall-her.0.png Naturally, yeah it certainly doesn't cover everything, but really the big takeaway is: don't do it unless you know (explicitly) that it will be appreciated.

i'd be fine with literal smacks, i don't think a fine that only happens if done in the presence of a police officer will be especially dissuading unless cops are frequent in appearance. in my view, there will always be shithead guys who catcall and sexually harass so long as women are perceived as easy prey and less capable of defending themselves.

The OP doesnt say "following someone around screaming nice ass WHY ARE YOU IGNORING ME" it says wolf whistling. Literally just whistling in someone's general direction to casually express interest. It's not something i suggest as a way to meet people, but it would violate freedom of speech to disallow it. It is already very fucking illegal to stalk someone, attack someone or chase you down the street screaming about your genitals. And yes, it is what you said. You need psychological help if people whistling at you on the street "remind[s] you nearly every single day that being sexually assaulted is a very real possibility for you".

replying to a few takes I'm seeing, I walk around Chicago and it's high construction season in my area (forever). It's gross and alarming how often I see construction workers catcall or otherwise make loud commentary to each other right in front of girls. Being the target of this shit is fucking gross and demeaning, even just being a witness sucks. Had a dude lean out the side of his goddamn garbage truck to do the classic 'wolf whistle' at a girl the moment she walked out of a door in front of me about a month ago, then when I looked at him to see what just happened he yelled across the street to me "you see that ass, son?!" while grinning like an idiot, just fuckin wild dude it's pretty clear in the common shit like construction workers they're not 'threatening rape', or that it's somehow gonna get them laid, they're at work and can't go anywhere. It's just being a creepy fuck for the sake of it. It's probably the most sexually uncomfortable you can possibly make a random stranger without directly flashing your junk at them I don't see why it's not enforceable already, like if a cop catches some workers yelling shit or gets flagged down when a harasser is following a girl when she won't acknowledge his shit (which also happens a lot). Putting a tag directly on catcalling as illegal is weird, and at its core I appreciate its intent as a way to make it publicly known to Stop Fucking Doing That, but it's still treading on some toes figuring out at what level cops interact with this, because it can be playful banter they shake their head at and say 'stop that', or it can be some dude who's been standing around for an hour air-humping at chicks who walk by

I wrote that to include things which weren't directly relevant to cat calling but were to general flirting. If you approached a woman, spoke to her, gave a genuine compliment or had a proper conversation and didn't ignore it if she tried to get you to go away, you're not going to get prosecuted under this. You really misunderstand how hard thing like this are to prosecute. It seems you'd need a police officer to basically see you do it and judge it to be harassment and if that happens then chances are you were the one in the wrong. And yes, it is what you said. You need psychological help if people whistling at you on the street "remind[s] you nearly every single day that being sexually assaulted is a very real possibility for you". As a man it's really, really easy to forget how pervasive and constant sexual harassment and assault is for women. You ask any woman and chances are she's been harassed and either has been assaulted or has a friend who has. I spent one night in a situation where I was aware that there was a potential for that to happen to me and it was fucking awful. They live with that every single day.

I didn't say chase. The dude didn't move, he just got louder. Dude. No. I really don't have any desire to go to the "you are clearly literally not qualified to know what you're talking about" argument because I think it's normally a huge cop-out, but Jesus. Try talking to some women that you know about this.

Yeah, every woman I know is in constant fear just walking down the street and flinches every time someone whistles. This is definetly normal behavior you see everywhere here in the city.. are you kidding me? You'd get some seriously concerned looks and a lot of if you started going around telling women here that they're living in terror on the streets. If the majority of people you know are really like this i dont know what to tell you. It is *your circle*, people in a group can drum eachother up into hysteria when they don't need to be, that seems likely here. I don't know your circumstances but they don't near make you qualified assert that women in cities are largely constantly concerned about being raped on the street. Spreading this kind of hysteria is actively damaging and it's unhealthy to live in fear to the extent you're claiming people you know do, maybe help them deal with that instead of posting on internet forums asking for unenforceable laws.

How about you actually properly reply to the post instead of latching onto hyperbole. You can't deny that there are people who fear for being assaulted in public. Catcalling certainly doesn't help their feeling of security. It may be "expressing interest", but it's not appropriate in most cases.

You might disagree with me but thats not what he said, literally "any female people that you know that live in a city". Thats not "some people". It's also not hyperbole to argue that more innocent than guilty people can and will be incorrectly targetted by poorly devised laws.

That's what I meant with 'latching onto hyperbole'. You ignore the points in favor of attacking a hyperbolic statement someone is making. It doesn't really do anything other than to start some dumb word tennis with 0 actual discussion. If you believe someone is being hyperbolic, call it out but also address the actual point. As for more innocent people being targeted, yeah I would agree if the law is simply being applied based on bad evidence/word-of-mouth. But we don't know too much about the law to conclude that. If it's only being applied when a police officer witnesses it, that would be largely fine but probably ineffective. I'd agree that the law is unenforceable and we're better off educating people about unacceptable behavior - but the problem of catcalling/wolf-whistling is real.

I already addressed the points in previous posts. Im only going to reply to new elements im not going to copy and paste the same thing every time, did you read the post i responded to in the quote? He ignored most of what i wrote just to say 'no i know better', if you wanted to practice what you're talking about you should have quoted a more relevant post. Catcalling of a level that constitutes harassment is already against the law, but random whistling at women isn't harassment and therefore isn't something that should should be up to the police to enforce. Are there people who feel really uncomfortable who dont deserve to? Yes, but what is the solution there? As i already commented, the first step there is to make sure you're not just being a nut. Randomly receiving whistles on the street should not be something that makes you feel unsafe. If people are screaming about fucking you in the ass, maybe you have a real complaint, but is the solution police enforcement? Still no, too subjective and even if it's "just if a police officer witnesses it" more police would probably abuse the law to get fines for a quota than people go about screaming obscenities at women in their presence, in other words, the law would be abused more than it would be used to help anyone. This is a point i've already made by the way, but you don't seem to have responded to it.

@Mattk50 you're also absolutely fixated on the whistling part and willfully and blissfully ignoring the fact that there is a lot more covered by this law than a single act. Believe it or not but up until this point calling people out on the street by making explicit and unwanted sexual advances was, up until this point, not illegal despite your claims. Now if it is caught happening then it is subject to a dissuasive fine. You're writing these absolutely fucking massive paragraphs about whistling while seemingly failing to understand the most basic fucking level aspect of the law that it applies to a plethora of other things that people do to get the attention of women for even a couple seconds.

Maybe if you weren't so busy being outraged at the fact that women aren't incapable idiots who can't protect themsleves from being spoken to in public actual you'd have noticed that, while the law includes the other actions i keep referencing, it also includes whistling, which is the point of the argument since this shit will be abused and barely help anyone. Read what I write and get the baguette out of your ass, you might learn something about how disrespectful "we have to protect the women" arguments are to those actual people who would prefer they not live in a shitty authoritarian hellhole.