Mariella Frostrup: Men face 'double standard' over celebrity lust - Sensationalist Headlines

don't get married if you don't want to risk the heavy financial penalties that come with divorce. If the risk spices your marriage up then so be it.

Your mistake is painting those who care about Men's Rights as agreeing with the things this man says inherently. Should I start pulling up batshit insane tumblr posts as a retort?

Why stop at tumblr posts, get something more equivalent like pro-feminism reporters and leaders of feminist advocacy groups. I'm sure you'll have a gold mine there. I'm pretty sure the red pill movie showcased a few.

Your archived post is what Dave Chapelle(A comedian) made a skit on and your first article mentions people who are convicted of rape where the evidence is not quite presented. Which is why the article was even made, you can paint anyone as a rapist if you only provide small clips of proof and the courts are more willing to side with the women. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

Paging @_Axel to share his wonderful experience with the leader of NOW, IIRC. (tl;dr "men can't be raped")

I've read a lot of feminist talk about male issues before, and while some of it is genuinely good, considerate stuff and even when it's not I can believe that they're hearts are genuinely in the right place, there's a reason that people hold a lot of resentment. For one, so much of it is just unbelievably condescending. They love to talk about how "confused" men are about gender roles, essentially making them out to be children who just can't understand what's happening now that the women's gender roles are changing and how they're just so "frustrated" that they don't know what to do anymore in the face of independent women! Many of them frequently just don't seem to treat men who want to talk about men's issues as being intellectual equals. Furthermore, almost all of the feminist perspective I see on male issues claims (implicitly or explicitly) that they are completely internalized. The only problem is with how men see themselves, and maybe how other men see each other. There seems to be very little willingness to admit that males face any kind of actual prejudice, and that that prejudice doesn't only come from other men. They will (rightly) tell you that everyone participates in female prejudice, and that everyone should be conscientious of it in themselves as well as others, but they rarely seem to extend the same to male prejudice. This can especially be seen in the kinds of male issues that actually get talked about. Largely, it's just "men can't talk about their FEELINGS BOOHOOHOO" and "men shouldn't be ashamed to be virgins" (although ironically some of them seem to like to mock anti-feminists as being just a bunch of losers who can't get a date) and maybe occasionally talking about prejudice against men in family law. Again, most of what gets focused on is things that can be pinned on men as purely internalized and that can just be fixed by proxy of addressing women's issues, rather than any kind of systemic injustice towards men that needs to be seriously addressed, like the fact that sex is an even bigger discriminatory factor than race in the justice system (and not by a small margin either), or that as a man you're dramatically more likely to end up homeless. This isn't meant to attack feminists. I think they're heart is in the right place, I don't think there's any malice here. But it largely feels like they don't actually take male prejudice very seriously and only think of them as a problem that "the men just need to go talk out amongst themselves."

Doesn't help that all of the issues that men face are chalked up as 'Toxic masculinity' by the self-proclaimed feminists like Jim.

And here's the thing, I don't even mind feminism existing as a movement primarily for addressing female injustice from the female perspective. The problem is that there seems to be this sentiment among feminists that feminism is the absolute final answer to the gender discussion and it can solve everything, and as such there is no room for anything else because we already have the solution.

This is a pretty accurate and well-thought out perspective. The feminist movement does need to give some ground if they want to heal this growing divide that we've seen recently.

This hits the nail on the head. It's perplexing to me that a key point of feminism is that the words we say matter (see: policeman, "men at work", etc.). And I agree! But to then turn around and say "Feminism really means equality for everyone and the name doesn't at all have an impact" is completely contradictory. If I were to spearhead a movement called "White Uprising" but went around talking about how it's really supposed to help everyone and you should just ignore the name, I would be called a white supremacist.

Your merge is owned by Joules™. I think the point where feminism falls flat on its face for being for both genders is due to it not being for both genders. It's a different movement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism

I would argue that while it seems most feminists have their rights in the right places although target the wrong causes of the issues that face men, there are those that do harbour malicious intent against men. To give one example, a feminist who argues that men should be put into a camp with wardens!

Thank you. This is always a frustrating topic for me because it so easily devolves into a lot of insults and accusations when I think everyone could actually find a lot of common ground if they wouldn't just immediately assume the worst of each other.

And she's a writer for Guardian. Julie Bindel | The Guardian So The Guardian supports writers who want men wiped off the face of the earth, aint that some shit.

I think it's important to see feminists and mens rights in the same way we see other political groups like the right vs left. They are important for creating a political balance and ensuring no one groups takes their ideas too far. While I don't like feminism and I do see it or similar groups as being important for creating balance.

Feminism is not inherently opposed to men's rights, or the other way around. They are chiefly concerned with the same thing: human rights. It's not as if men's rights gaining ground harms feminism. Or at least, it doesn't have to.

They both have different ideas of what the problems are and how they should be fixed, so they are somewhat opposed.

I disagree. I think they cover problem areas the other doesn't cover. I'm not going to say that feminism is the answer for everything -- it's certainly not -- but the women it's helped cannot be ignored. Women have faced systemic discrimination for an incredibly long time. Feminism is the only reason women are able to vote. Men's Rights isn't about "men are the ones with the REAL PROBLEMS". If that's how you interpret it, I think you might be part of the toxic group of "MRAs" that people like to use to dismiss the entire idea. Men's Rights is about "men also have problems". Because we do. And feminism isn't addressing them. And it's okay to criticize feminism for that (mainly because people claim that feminism is addressing these issues). But men having issues does not mean that women don't need advocacy as well.

I think it's safe to say at this point that the issues that women face have gotten all the attention in the world given to it in the past 3-4 years. It's everywhere, all over social media, all over billboards in the cities, schools, universities. You can't even take a shit anymore without walking past 10 woman empowerment ads in most public establishments.

I'm most certainly not someone that is trying to push the idea that "men are the ones with the real problems", in-fact I think it's counter productive to say that's true for any one group of people. I'll admit you made a chuckle at the accusation that I might be apart of this "toxic element" within "mens rights", which is certainly not true. I agree that feminism isn't addressing these issues or is simply ignoring them, I didn't need that because men having issues does not mean women don't need advocacy. I think it's important to have groups for both.

Why do you think these issues are being discussed? Don't get me wrong, I think the focus on feminism is grossly disproportionate. People's interpretation of the state of being a woman is, in my experience, extremely off-base. For example, if you browse /r/twoxchromosomes (or see it on /r/all periodically in my case), you'll often see posts along the vein of "Being a woman is dangerous" or "I didn't realize how dangerous {X} is for women". And while they may be sharing stories of bad things happening to women, they tend to forget that these bad things can still happen to men. It's a dangerous mindset to look at something bad happening to someone and assume it's because of their gender as opposed to the fact that they're vulnerable -- like most people, including men. That said, it's not as if "we fixed the issues, so time to pull the plug!" I think we need to seriously tone down our discussion on solely female-related issues, as it gives the impression that only women have issues... but if women have issues, don't they deserve to be addressed?

Absolutely agree that they should be discussed but the discussion of female issues has grown to a proportion where no other issues get any time to talk on stage.

My experience is rather limited, and perhaps the very nature of my college program is responsible for it, but that hasn't been my experience. I'm in an acting program, and it may just be because of the liberal mentality of people who wish to be entertainers, but we're pretty sexually open, men and women both, in my class. Crude jokes, flirting, etc are the norm.

To be fair, Reddit allows /r/the_donald to continue to exist. Reddit Inc. doesn't decide what gets put onto /r/all. I've also seen a number (much fewer, but still) of /r/mensrights posts on the frontpage as well. It's not a conspiracy to keep men down, it's the sad reality that people seem to care more about women suffering than men suffering.

Why do you think they care more? Because it's always talked about.

Couldn't agree more, personally I think it's more down to evolution than anything. We've evolved to this point only because of that.

Yes, we agree on this point. My point is that you're not going to win favorable attention by trying to shut feminism up. It will not work. You're going to win favorable attention by having good things to say. And luck. I know you're going to say "but that's not working", and I have to disagree. It's anecdotal, but I've seen people on Facepunch discussing this issue in a positive way much more than I've seen it in the past. When you have reasonable, level-headed conversations in public, you can slowly start to gain attention for your issues. But it's slow. And it's hard. And it sucks. But it's better than trying to attack something that most people see as being incredibly important.

There is also another thing to consider, some people consider mens rights topics to be toxic and might not even allow discussion of them on their subreddits or tolerate people who posted in /r/mensrights. For example if you post in /r/mensrights you are likely to be banned in others. It doesn't matter about the content of your post, just guilt by association.

Why would I want to shut feminism up? I think the feminists are trying to shut down mens rights associations if anything. There should be more of a push away from feminism and mens rights association into egalitarianism. Feminism is for female rights and empowerment. On paper one might argue that the word feminism stands for equal rights for both sexes but in reality that's simply untrue. At least the mens rights association is not bullshitting about their name.

So you can accept that you're generalizing the entirety of the group that could fall under the label "MRA", under the same logic that many use to discount feminists, sourcing the craziest ones they can find? It's easy to be against somethings most extreme or ridiculous example. I don't see how that's a valid argument though.