Finnish gender clinics will no longer treat non-binary patients - Sensationalist Headlines

If people want to identify as these different genders now then fine, I don't really like it myself since it's just confusing as to what means what anymore, I prefer the days of Straight, Homosexual, Bi-Sexual and A-Sexual, it was pretty easy to understand that, but I can't keep up with it now.

Thing is you have listed sexual orientations which are not the same thing as genders. Gender variance has always really been about; granted it is much more in the limelight nowadays and I am sure there is many more trans people who are open about it due to today's society being (generally) more accepting. I'll agree that transgender has been somewhat poltically hijacked in some areas (which as a trans person myself I really hate) but the vast majority of the time it's just people wanting to be accepted for who they are. I don't see who liking or not liking it plays into it.

is it really that hard to just ask people what they identify as, or if you would rather not, treat them neutrally until they reveal that information to you?

I don't give a shit, a Human is a Human, unless I'm interested in that person I don't care what they identify as.

Then what's the problem?

I don't exactly know what my problem is with this whole thing, it's mainly just Human beings are difficult to understand in general and I don't really like trying to figure them out.

Isn't "Man things" just something based on antiquated, sexist stereotypes of what men are expected to like or dislike anyway?

Okay, so take that difficulty in figuring people out and apply that concept to someone who is non-binary. Can you imagine how hard it would be for them to understand their own gender? Sometimes applying a label and associating with a group can help you figure things out through shared experiences and that's why some people identify as non-binary. You don't need to fully understand the situation, only enough to care about how others might perceive it.

FP's rating system is great for identifying the thinnest-skinned people. If you bombard a whole thread with snowflake and baby ratings it pretty much just outs you as incapable of sharing a world with people who are different from you.

It's almost as if we have ratings for posts such as "I disagree" and "I agree". 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

I don't understand the "you're just pretending to get attention or whatever" argument. Why would anybody want to do any of this? Why give yourself a life filled with constant issues and assholes giving you shit?

Because some people have managed to conflate "these people are different and don't fit the societal norms I am familiar with" with "these people want to stand out and seek extra attention through being different" and act like they're fully informed/know better than scientists or the people experiencing this stuff so that they can then feel superior

I don't know about how shit works in America, but in ICD-10, diagnosis F64.8 and F64.9 would fit the definition of what people call "non-binary". So, it literally is a thing. I didn't know we had outpatient clinics specifically for trans people, that's neat. Considering the people that took the jobs knew where they'd be working, I doubt this is about anything massively hostile and they're just being careful. This organization only just put out their statement on Friday, so there hasn't exactly been a lot of time to get a response from the attendings (two people at two different clinics). I also find it funny that some of the money that comes from the government monopoly on gambling, goes to an organization like this, that's kind of neat.

I don't know the process that other people go through, so I can only say what I've done and what I think other trans people do. A person is born and raised to be a boy/man. They're thinking "well... this doesn't feel right." They consider living as a woman, and the effects of hormone therapy, and decide "yeah, you know what? This works." This is (to put it lightly) accepted. People hear "trans-woman" and can understand this transitional process of "living as a man doesn't feel right, but living as a woman does!" Imagine... Neither really feels right? I'd hear the word "handsome" growing up, I cringe. A lot of traits that were put upon me because I was born with a penis, I didn't like (aka, "you have to X because you're a man"). I eventually gained more feminine characteristics, and people called me "the gayest straight guy" and it made me feel "happy/proud" to not be seen as "typical straight dude." Eventually that evolved in a feminine gender expression, on occasion. And I asked myself: am I a trans woman? I thought about changing my name, making myself speak in a higher voice, living full time as a woman, and it all sounded... Unnecessary. But I hate being "a man." But the idea of being a woman doesn't sound "right" either. But I feel more relatable to lesbians than straight men. Could I have just affirmed that I was a different kind of man? I used to. And someone in my scenario likely could. I wouldn't say it's impossible for someone like me to say "no, I'm definitely 100% cis man," but I haven't heard of them, yet. So, basically, I want to be less like a man, to the point of I'd like to start estrogen treatment, but I feel no need to change my name and go the whole nine-yards. And at that point, I wouldn't say "I'm a cis guy," anymore. So I just figure "guess I'm genderqueer/nonbinary" and carry on.

this thread makes me realize everyone on the internet is fuckin stupid round up the nerds and give em wedgies some more already

I hate women and minorities

bring back bullying nerds so they dont shit up these threads and up the quality of e-content

I can understand where the clinics are coming from in regards to short staffed and short resourced, but absolutely do non-binary people exist. Do remember that gender is an identity that can be shapped and molded by societal/cultural factors. Hell, its been shown throughout various cultures and history that the idea beyond the western two binary genders has been present. Through different cultures that were effectively isolated from each other well before the times of international sailing and trade. So there's plenty of history behind it including more recent times. I can't speak personally about this, but given all the shit my partner has to deal with to get proper medical support has been, the numerous therapists, etc and been feeling that way they are for years. One would be certain that they are non-binary. Of course that's just the US medical system, but still.

What people need to realize about things like these is that being trans in general is a mental disorder, it's not to be equated with the two sexes but I don't doubt that people who identify as non-binary really don't feel like they belong to the female or male gender. It's not as simple as a male brain in a female body or vice versa, people who say that have no idea what they are talking about as science and neuroanatomy/physiology strongly contradicts this. Going through transformation doesn't clearly reduce the number of suicides, according to some studies it increases it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/ Another interesting fact is that around 80% of children who consider themselves trans grow up to be comfortable with their assigned gender. Many of them become gay people. This points to a multifaceted problem as there are 20% who don't. Furthermore, people who identify as trans have been shown to suffer from other psychological disorders in a disproportionate amount compared to the general public, indicating that there might be other reasons that people identify as trans. It's clear that we don't fully understand this phenomenon yet but there are a few things everyone can agree on. The first is that in a group of people who consider themselves trans there isn't one overlapping reason. Majority of people get comfortable with their assigned sex after different psychological treatments but some don't. The second thing is that normalizing a mental disorder is not a good way of treating it. If a person is schizophrenic you don't tell them that their hallucinations are real. I have the utmost respect for people having to deal with these strong feelings, they shouldn't be ashamed and they should get the help they need. That being said, everything is getting out of hand when so many people have such strong opinions about something that they don't understand. Even trans-people themselves, because let's face it, being trans doesn't make you understand the etiology and pathophysiology of what's going on in your head. The reason I bring this up is that the current trend of normalizing trans people is really scary since it's starting to block out science and popular media shames anyone who takes trans for what it is. Real psychologists and experts on the human brain get sacked or blurred out because they have nuanced approaches or don't agree with giving awards to people for changing. This is indirectly killing people.

lol you literally cited the same two studies (that you didn't read) that everyone else does you people are really predictable

How about countering my arguments instead.

im not going to baby you by explaining a study that directly anticipates your argument and provides a rebuttal on its own

You are not going to get into a discussion you know you will lose. The study is a cohort study with a group of 324 people. They have followed these people and seen that there is a higher risk for mortality and suicide. In other words, they've seen that these people killed themselves. It's not like an RCT about a drug that you need to replicate several times.

lol imagine drawing causality like that from this alright i'll baby you here you go Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.[39], [40] This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.

So you didn't read my first post thoroughly. I'm not arguing that reassignment is increasing suicide. I'm arguing that there is data to support both sides and that it's a multifaceted problem.. It's self evident that you can't draw causality from studies like these but you can see that people who have undergone reassignment had a higher mortality rate and suicide rate. To automatically dispel everything as being because to other reasons is equally as stupid as saying reassignment increases suicide.

?

"according to some studies it increases it". According to this study the mortality rate and suicide rate has gone up after reassignment indicating that mortality rate and suicide rate is higher after reassignment. From the conclusion: "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.I don't really see what's hard to understand. Just because it's flawed like any other study doesn't mean it should be discarded." There are methodological flaws in all studies on things like this since you can't make a perfect study. Doesn't mean that everything in there should be discarded. If you really are interested you should look at the whole body of science surrounding the issue and then you will come to the conclusion that it's not clear cut.

Let's go with the study's example of schizophrenia. If untreated schizophrenia has a yearly suicide rate of 20% (the specific numbers don't matter,) and medicated schizophrenia has a yearly suicide rate of 5%, then "Persons with schizophrenia, after being prescribed antipsychotics, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that antipsychotics, although alleviating symptoms of psychosis, may not suffice as treatment for schizophrenia, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after antipsychotic-based treatment for this patient group. would still be true. it doesn't give you evidence to claim that whatever intervention is involved has increased the suicide/mortality risk. If you want causality like that you have to actually design the study to try to find it, which this study doesn't really do, it's not within its scope.

Okay so all this issue proves is that suicidal transpeople are less suicidal (but still suicidal) after HRT. I wish there was a "no shit" rating. You're misinterpreting the study. The study concludes that transpeople have a higher suicide rate than the general population, but you presume HRT to be the cause. This is where you're bad at reading. The sentence doesn't mean the rates increase after reassignment, it means that even after reassignment suicide rates are higher than the cisgender population. All this study is concluding is that HRT is not enough, and better psychiatric care is required after HRT to alleviate mental problems. Which is not unexpected at all with all of the shit transpeople get in the world.

Ok let me, like you say baby you because you don't seem to understand why this study support me. Let's start with the basics. When you read a study there are are two areas that are important to read to know what the study has actually concluded. 1. The method where the method of how the researchers conducted the study is presented and 2. the results. There are also two other areas that are often filled with bias because the researchers own opinions shine through and science is nitpicked to justify the research. 1. background and 2. discussion. In this study in the result, they have shown that the suicide rates after reassignment surgery has risen by about 20 times compared to a control of non trans people aged the same. They confirm this in the beginning of the discussion and then proceed to give their opinion that this means psychiatric and somatic care has to better during follow up. That doesn't somehow mean that the 20X increased risk compared to regular people has been thrown in the bin. I guess you could make the argument that a "healthy" control group is not valid for comparison. Well then look at the suicide rates of black people during slavery and you will see that it's lower. Or better yet, go online and look at the many studies looking at pre-reassignment suicide rates and you will see that there is generally a pattern. I guess it doesn't matter what you say because ignorant people generally want to remain ignorant but let's say you don't, actually go and look at the many studies on this subject with and open mind. I'm out.