Drama over female-only League of Legends PAX seminars - Sensationalist Headlines

This is true for other esports, but they don't have the same problem. Multiple doubles teams (mainly CLGs smash doubles team) practice often and do footage reviews as you would in CS, and these days they have a dedicated coach. Yet their players are also allowed to play with others at a tournament if the other is not present. Why is there no pushback from the CS community on this?

You need to be really careful applying forced equality measures, lest you cause segregation, bitterness, more segregation. This Riot employees' fervent attitude of "it's okay to to discriminate for the sake of equality, get fucked" shows complete lack of the kind of nuance and care you need when making these decisions. I'd say gender discrimination (or any discrimination) is 50% systemic problem, 50% attitude problem which feed each other. When fixing it you can't neglect either. You have to care how people feel on both sides, and understand what factors cause people to be treated inequally. Tl;dr: Don't be hostile and band-aid solutions cause more problems than they fix Side note: Isn't banning genders from events illegal?

This seems like a pretty clear case of virtue signalling to me given Riot just got done dealing with accusations of sexism against themselves and suddenly they feel fit to lecture other people on the matter.

This. There are some female pro gamers who could give male pro gamers a run for their money. Women aren't under-represented in competitive gaming because they can't compete, they're underrepresented because in general women don't really give a shit about competitive gaming.

Because playing smash doubles requires so much less teamwork and coordination than CS. If you aren't attending a tournament in CS you're practicing for the one you are going to attend. It's not like smash where tournament attendance is decided by players, it's decided by qualifiers and invites. Pretty much all tournaments have rules prohibiting players that played in qualifiers and lost from ringing for other teams as well, for hopefully very obvious reasons.

I understand all of that, but disagree that Smash dobules requires less teamwork when winning ultimately relies sometimes on pixel perfect positioning and reliance on split second help from your team mate. Different sure, but not less and no less practice goes into FGC games at all. CS isn't special in that regard. But I still dont understand why you can't play in two different events, if the other was a female only team invitational? FGC and Smash have beyond the summit, yet people aren't not allowed to enter doubles due to it not being "your teammate".

Reading the exerpts in the op honestly sounded like a satire post about sjw shit. Its sad to know there are people who actually think this way.

First we have someone saying public masterbation isn't immoral, then we have someone saying how net neutrality is the gay agenda, and now we have whatever the fuck this is. I gotta say this site is on a roll with the nuclear takes.

The reason most events ban players who have been eliminated for playing from a different roster later in the event is firstly conflicts of interest, but also because otherwise you'd have situations where when an incredible player playing for a weaker team that gets knocked out of qualifiers early (this happened a lot to mouz with NiKo even though he was the best player in the world) then "renting" that player out to other orgs. You also have to remember on this point that it's standard for CS contracts to contain buyouts in the six figure range, and that these amounts are often paid. What org is going to let their hugely expensive star player fly across the world to play for another team with no financial incentive for themselves? There's also potential sponsor issues, you pay your players to play whilst wearing your sponsors logos, for them to be seen playing with another sponsors logos could be damaging to your relationship with your sponsors. It's not like smash where you can just turn up at a tourney and post the entry fee either, top competitions require you to either qualify or be invited. Nobody would stop you going to a local BYOC with some mates, hell the french players do that all the time. I'm not going to have someone on my team who could be required by their org to attend an event that clashes with the qualifier we want to play, or event we want to attend meaning we're gonna be playing with a ringer a lot which is a MASSIVE problem in CS. Hell playing regular leagues would be out of the question as well, since that match scheduling with a person on two teams would be insane.

Oops. Apologies. I did consider that reason, but when I saw the FP questionnaire results, the amount of women here was so small it was barely perceptible, so I thought that reason was unlikely. I stand corrected.

none of this shit is even related the topic riot recently were called out for sexist behaviour within their offices and are now trying to win brownie points with the feminist crowd to try and prove to them that they aren't sexist and evil, except it ended up backfiring since all they did was just demonize 90% of their player base by having devs insult them fantastic job riot

Do you have any links to recent good CS tournaments? I have become so entrenched I haven't looked at anything but FGC since the TF2 highlander days, so I know nothing about these scenes at all. Feel free to take this offsite on Steam or discord (Icemaz on both)

Sure, I sent you a quick friend request on steam if you want to chat there to avoid offtopic.

Valve just released Free CSGO which can get you fully up to speed with tournaments. It has all the majors which you can watch within a game (GOTV) and is generally great idea. Other than that - Dreamhack Tournament just ended yesterday and FaceIt London Major is about to commence. The scene is getting real exciting as teams come up with new and more clever strats and more people tuning in to watch. FYI: This is a guy we were talking about (Having bad reaction times, but being good lurker - GeT_RiGhT) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C94Y_y8v4w I mean it's from his CS 1.6 days but it's still my favorite video.

Rather than focusing on the issue of whatever the hell the argument in this thread turned into. The practices put forth by Riot discourage equality quite blatantly. "The issue here arose when people noticed that the seminars were only open to women and “non-binary folk.”" This is something that just sits wrong with me personally, as it does express the decision that 'this group of people' requires special attention in comparison to the other group of people. Quoting Riots official release: "Right next door in Room 613 we’re hosting a variety of sessions to support women and non-binary folks who are interested in getting into games professionally." the inclusion of the non binary population sort of nullifies the entire argument about natural traits above. However, I personally feel as though this undermines the entire idea behind inclusion. Nonbinary individuals are those who do not identify with a particular gender, yet are given the same benefit, despite their actual sex. Its such a logical discrepancy as the entire seminar is open to include to individuals of gender, but to exclude individuals based on sex. Regardless of where you stand on the issue, this is still discriminatory behavior which is defined as follows "the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex." The initial idea behind the plan appears to be demonstrated by the following in the article Many people have said that they wouldn’t have a problem with the schedule if this was the only aspect of the day limited to females only. But after the resume review session, there are also presentations covering the following topics: Art + Champions/Skins Design How to be a Producer Narrative Writing Production Careers Game Design Advanced Cosplay This is stepping beyond the scope of giving tips to female gamers, but literally segregating lectures to a preferred population of people within Riot's context. This is what I consider ethically wrong as it constructs a perceived narrative that women and men cannot co-exist without conflict. Therefore, we need to give them their own seminars in order to protect them from masculinity or something? Klein in this case is completely missing the point here The most commonly thrown around arguments are that this is being sexist against men, just like racism, and that you can’t fix a problem by doing the opposite of what that problem is. Cool. That’s all bullshit. Systemic sexism and racism exist at the intersection of bigotry and power dynamics. Racism isn’t just being called the n-word, it’s that + no one caring when you protest + not being given a loan a white person would have gotten + being shot by the police for no reason. Well, unfortunately this isn't a case of racism, its a case of discrimination. Klein is literally just throwing around buzzwords at this point to make him seem as though he is educated on the matter. I myself don't consider myself educated to debate the semantics of the entire situation. I just find this behavior morally reprehensible. However, this is an attempt to deflect the problem at hand to the classic 'but the alt-right!' bullshit splattered by tabloid media. When one group has too much and one has too little, some must be taken from the group that has too much. That sucks, and if you’re used to being catered to your entire life and always being made to feel like the most special boy in the room, the above will be your reaction. If you’ve never had to think about this for a minute in your life, congratulations, you’re privileged as fuck and have been benefiting from a system that makes the lives of other people hell. I sincerely hope these manbabies crying in that thread will grow up some day. This argument is what really sits wrong with me. This is an economic argument that is applied to inclusion. The idea of taking from the rich and giving to the poor is a humbling tale, however, this is not money, it is an event people spent money on therefore people should be allowed to attend all the seminars made available. I personally would be pretty upset if I paid for an all access ticket for an event, only to be told I can attend 75% of the show due to inclusive principles (which in actuality, encourage segregation, and discriminatory practices--VERY BAD!) During events such as the civil rights movement, what did the white population have to give up at the time? Segregation, this that and the other, I was not alive at the time so i couldn't speak upon it properly. But this is literally the polar opposite of what inclusion implies. Instead of bringing individuals together, they are intentionally kept separate, and told to stop whining about it. Too bad i'm a gay, white male. Some of these seminars actually sounded pretty cool. Regardless, this is a total bad PR move on Riot's part, and it shows that it really didn't work with all of this backlash.

Some people at Riot typed up responses that are more measured then that Daniel Klein dude. I’m a woman in my mid 30s who has ONLY worked in male dominated industries in 3 different countries. I have been paid less, sexually harassed AND assaulted, been called a ‘bitch’ and more. Once in Japan, the [department] head stuck his head between my legs (while I had a skirt on) and lifted me on his shoulders so everyone could see how ‘light’ I was. He was drunk, everyone shouted ‘put her down’ and laughed [nervously] ‘uh that wasn’t sekkuhara right?’ I was only 23 but so embarrassed and scared to get fired from a dream job. Plus, compared to Japanese women I felt I never got it as ‘bad’ despite getting comments on my appearance on a daily basis. I was young and didn’t have a voice in Japanese society. These days I’m so over that shit. BUT I’m not angry because I don’t believe anger helps. Most of my friends are guys, so I spend time being someone willing to discuss the difficult shit. Any question is okay re: ‘sjw things’ as long as it’s asked in good faith. Why? Well… We’re all at different stages in life. I’ve said racist/sexist/ableist/etc things when I was younger because I was ignorant. I’m SO grateful people helped me. Not that we all deserve the time and energy, but I DID study to be a diplomat so I want to return the favor to others. Okay so on the PAX women’s only space: I understand the gesture, but personally don’t agree with it. I think it could have been called ‘Encouraging Women in Gaming!’ and just by having the word ‘women’ in it, the vast majority of men would opt out. Its cynical, but true. Many men don’t want to associate themselves with a woman’s ‘thing’ so they’d self-select and opt out. It’d almost by default be a female/non-binary space. I wish it were different, but look at viewership of women’s sports or the fact we need ‘dude wipes’ and ‘man candles’. Baby wipes are great, ya’ll. You don’t need to pay more for ‘man’ wipes! You won’t turn into a baby! Riot Stellari Internet culture creates a lot of false dichotomies, one of them being seen here; that the choice is “hire women that are not qualified” or “interview like you do now, change nothing.” These are both hogwash approaches that don’t look at what’s happening rationally. We don’t get many women (nor non white/non Asian) candidates. This is true and measurable. Looking at why and why it matters is job one. (Also – I’m purposely ignoring the moral side – the point holds up without it). There are several reasons, some macro and some micro; lack of acceptance in societal norms (which limits community/mentor ship opps) and unintentional bias in hiring processes are two we can address as Riot. So, if we ignore the (I feel valid) moral issue, why does this matter? Because we’re then, missing talented or qualified candidates, which is making our design bench more weak or limited. I want awesome designers in my team- and we frequently source from non traditional backgrounds in terms of education and experience to find them. So then, taking extra time to find qualified candidates who aren’t in the process now is valuable. We’re not going to be hiring unqualified people just because they’re women. We’re not stealing a seat at the interview table from you. In MY experience, there are a large number of people who think design is something it’s not; the ability to know or be good at a specific game. Having “good ideas.” Critiquing things. And my job every year at GDC is breaking a lot of people’s hearts when we discuss this. It’s much more likely for you to be mad about this if you’re both 1) unqualified yourself but 2) think you are and are eager to prove it instead of learn. One important aspect of it is to be good at being wrong and changing your mind. See this as an opportunity to practice. Ryan “Morello” Scott, Design Lead

Chess, too?

Their office is already segregated and already discriminates against women. If they get enough women in (esp in management) to create some kind of power balance then the management women can get people who deserve to get fired out of there and they'll be able to stand up for each other instead of women relying on just their secret whisper network where they share men's reputations so they don't get trapped in riot games' equivalent to Louie C.K's office. Right now dudes think they can do anything: One former male employee said that Riot’s “bro culture” is more pronounced behind closed doors, and hurts men too: One of Riot’s male senior leaders regularly grabbed his genitals, the source said I doubt they'll manage a meaningful change because from the descriptions of the hiring process and culture they're focused on hiring specifically toxic gamer men (which keeps out other hires) and they consider hiring raging shitlords to be part their DNA.

You are the living embodiment of a "True Gamer", and the reason about why many female players prefers to play as anonymous or only other women. How can one get to such levels of toxicity, are you deliberately trolling? What's going on on FP that we are seeing lately so many bad takes?

It's funny how the first person to reply to backlash against sexism in an incident that was a direct response for internal sexism cause by overt male dominance in the field and virtue signalling, is virtue signalling by a man. Like honestly could they not get a female representative to speak about it? Really shows the company didn't learn a thing.

https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/224019/d5f24656-13d2-4198-9082-62221b428def/omegalul.png from the riot internal slack chat ^ there are over 25 rioters that agree with DZK's harassment of the playerbase, the same person goes on to calling everyone in the league subreddit a toxic group of men. the problem isnt even the whole pax issue anymore, it's how Daniel (and a few other rioters) openly harassing and verbally assaulting players and people who just want answers. "fuck off and sea lion elsewhere" lol ok this same white knight curiously said NOTHING before the whole female harassment got leaked, so it shows how much he really feels. Better yet? His "girlfriend" is a woman (who publicly said on twitter she hopes every rioter and league player dies a horrific death because they're dysfunctional men) who's married to another guy and she also has a girlfriend. Needless to say it's not a dynamic that has been working if you view her (recently deleted) tweets. On top of this, testimonials and subreddit threads with over 10k upvotes that have been up for hours get deleted after reaching r/all and the subreddit moderators give no sane answer. If DZK and Co don't get fired, people should honestly throw a fit. This is a disaster and noone should be OK with it.

yes

Jesus christ kid calm down

Help, I slipped and fell into 2008 and a 12 year old is assaulting me with his shitty opinions

They've broken human rights laws in their state so yeah no shit all those people need a reality check and stop being prejudiced fucksticks. Hopefully someone who at pax brings a grievance. Also, the reddit mods you mentioned are banning everyone who even post on some other subreddits because they're allowing discussion of the issue with the fake reason of "brigading", which is kind of hard when nobody has linked anything in the original subreddit and it's all deleted anyways.

i mean female LoL players get shit tons of harassment and having a female-only space is nice in theory but the implementation here and the motivations driving that implementation seem very shaky

You talk a big game for someone who's probably never actually interacted with a real life woman (other than your mum) sans the nice old cashier lady at the grocery who says you're a handsome boy when you and your mum go in for a weekly shop.

Ah yes the famous "lol get a life" argument. Maybe you should go through all pages and discussions here before you jump into cherry-picked reply and voice your ideas? Also come on, I understand its a norm in America but don't bring this incel type of shit into discussion, we don't do that here.

I'm not reading 5 pages of people telling you that you're a sexist idiot when the entire first page did plenty to inform me about your stances. "Hurr durr women are weaker than men and suck at video games" isn't a valid argument. Also come on? I'm calling it like I see it mate, you're red pilling hard and you're being called out on it. Maybe evaluate your own perception before you jump at me for telling you that water's wet.

Whatever, I am not even gonna bother arguing with an idiot who makes conclusion from one sentence. End of story.