South Korea students gain weight 'to dodge military service'
215 replies, posted
ah now i realise why you've been crying the entire time:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/france-national-service-emmanuel-macron-young-people-military-charity-police-a8420616.html
I'll find at least 10 sources to back all my points up just for you but for the record, I haven't said "this is the way it should be" or "all young people should join the army"
I have only said it has benefits and works for young people. Maybe in Israel and Singapore the mandatory service takes the piss but I have no frame of reference for the way it is there.
how can you say "it has benefits and works for young people" without specifying where it does like you're doing, and when faced with evidence to the contrary say "well OVER THERE it clearly doesnt"?
you can't blurt out a universal like that without specifying where it works for young people, to what young people it has benefits, and in what country it is definitely worth having over voluntary service. especially when cases like my own could conceivably happen because they are a result of a universal feature of forced enlistment and of conditions present in all mandatory service in which the state has the power to punish people for disobeying. or are cases like this acceptable collateral to you?
This wouldn't make military training compulsory. Try reading the articles you post next time.
It has benefits and works for some* young people, and negative effects for others.
What frame of reference do you have then? As far as I know the UK has no military service.
then shut the fuck up if you have no idea what you're talking about.
is this really the way it is now, people just responding like babies.
I already said I appreciate your own personal view but it is biased since you both had a bad experience, maybe the conditions weren't 5* or the food was bad, I don't really know since now reading through the thread you have just singled out another person and insulted them for no reason.
Viper_SWE is a nice guy too, it was completely uncalled for.
Also, there's a small error in the article.
The longest war in American history is the Vietnam War, which has lasted for 17 years and 4 months, not the war in Afghanistan, which has lasted for 16 years and 11 months.
so do you just dodge my questions, then?
where exactly, if not universally, is military service good for all young people - and if it isnt good for all young people, are you willing to have those who will suffer from mandatory service as collateral?
if not, what exactly stops cases like mine and those of others here from happening in just about any country, given as they are a result of the inherent structure of mandatory service, not any specific comfy or uncomfy service conditions?
is there military service in which there is a failsafe against arbitrary discipline being enforced on people and in which those "disciplined" (like dogs) have any way to resist that doesnt consist in the military making their life even worse and eroding their dignity further?
what about those who will not gain any useful skills in their time "serving their country" due to being stuck in a redundant job created from the sudden influx in manpower in the military structure? what are they to do? and what about those who do get a non-redundant job, but one without any skills translatable to civilian life being imparted upon them? what do they gain?
dude just one question at a time... I can't be arsed because I am just responded like a moron because one Frenchman got upset.
the idea that you want people to give up months to years of their lives to serve the state because it will "make them a better person" runs contrary to human dignity and is plain disgusting. your dismissal of former conscripts' negative experiences as some kind of childish tantrum is just as repugnant.
no, you said compulsory service is pretty good and is somehow necessarily impactful on "work experience", which is absolute bullshit
I have to dismiss it because you both had extremely bad experiences over the course of 2 years.
That is not what I supported, they took the piss with both of you.
For me a worthwhile work experience is probably 3-4 months, maybe if there was a good setup/program then longer.
Those say nothing in particular, they just point out that youth unemployment is high and don't claim that a lack of job experience is the culprit. In fact, most testimonies just say that there is a lack of jobs in general.
This is an opinion piece. No fact is mentioned here, the author just says that it is the solution without backing up that claim with statistics or sources.
This doesn't support your argument at all. This article simply asks a question to which it gives no definitive answer. It doesn't bring up any fact or data supporting conscription. In fact, it mentions that it could be anticonstitutional in SA.
Same thing, this is a chief executive stating his opinion, without backing it up with any study.
When I say "sources", it doesn't just mean finding people who have the same opinion. It means factual reports.
so why do you say shit like this:
i appreciate for you personally it wasn't of use.
maybe you didn't engage with the process, thats not my problem.
because that's what conscription is. if you support it then you support forcing people into shitholes for years on end with no recourse. you can't just cop out with a shitty no true scotsman argument.
we're getting somewhere
this is a lot more specific than the initial post in which you spoke only of compulsory military service
what you describe is more like civil service, and in fact is not unique to military service programs. even then, why have it mandatory? if its so good for work experience, why wouldnt people suddenly enlist en masse - especially if desperate?
I can promise you most Singaporeans DON'T WANT TO DO FUCKING NATIONAL SERVICE.
Its a waste of time, we get trained to 'rush to wait, wait to rush' and its barely even useful for working outside unless you go into logistics.
And we are behind the ladies in terms of working experiences.
http://www.centreforcities.org/reader/delivering-change-cities-youth-unemployment-challenge/introduction/1-barriers-youth-employment/
https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/youth-unemployment-students-showing-serious-concern-over-how-they-will-gain-necessary-skills-for-job-a6918756.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/youth-unemployment-not-age-lack-of-skills
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/youth-unemployment-competition/9656587/What-young-people-need-more-than-anything-is-work-experience.html
look what do you want me to do, there are literally so many articles to find about "youth unemployment is high due to a lack of job experience"
why don't you argue the issue at hand instead of saying "bullshit" to all I'm saying.
three. three fucking years.
whats the point of """"preparing"""" for the realities in life by undergoing the exact same realities, what fucking tools did i exactly gain to cope with environments that shitty when it is possible that, having not faced it, i would never have willingly put myself in a situation like that to begin with - in which i have to consistently see people i cant stand for three years and which i simply cannot disobey.
a year or two long depression over with is no tool for life. there is nothing to applaud with me being too much of a coward to dodge military service by harming myself physically or being thorough enough to fake a mental illness. my experience owes very little to my service conditions, which were infact above average (9-5 job, air conditioned lab and plenty of free time) and owe a whole fucking lot to the inherent character of military service - being forced to do certain things and act a certain way in a job on pain of punishment.
in many states in which everybody is conscripted jobs even more mundane and redundant exist, in which, quite as easily, people work because theyre forced to and the skills gained (if there are skills gained - some office workers gain no skills at all!) have no use outside, a thing they try to use against you to tempt you to sign another year or two of voluntary service.
do you know the main difference between slavery and a job? you can quit a job if you find the degradation felt by you (which is subjective) not worth the money.
look, im sry I didn't realise how it is over there. I read a little bit about it and they do take the piss and go overboard.
This guy wrote multiple paragraphs detailing how military service can be a very negative experience because it is mandatory and yet you persist in saying that you think mandatory service can be a good thing?
Have you actually read his post? Because from what I can tell, you're under the impression that it says that conditions are bad specifically in Israel when that's not his point at all.
can that be avoided though? how do you discipline those who do not want to continue obeying orders, and how do you make certain those giving the orders and running the whole thing aren't fucking up their work? can it be other than a prison, however comfy the cells?
all the trouble with this arises out of these sort of things being compulsory, because when a thing is compulsory by law the only way to enforce it is by punishment. civil service and military service can definitely be very enlightening experiences that build character and allow one to find meaning in life, but when this is mandatory very often such endeavors (military service more often than civil service) become a farce, a theater of officiality in which everyone knows its a joke but nobody is laughing.
whether a thing can be a satisfactory experience doesn't mean it will be, and in light of this, i ask again, why have it as mandatory?
I don't understand the point you're making now.
First you compare your experience like treating you like a slave and raping, then saying they take away your dignity. Now you say the conditions are better than your current job.
Then you say it can be beneficial which is what I've been saying the entire time.
Can you underline your final view, is it only due to the fact that it's mandatory which bothered you the most or the duration or what?
The entire argument against my thinking "I don't think national service is pointless" is really abstract and tantrums galore, suggesting the entire thing is like a horror movie and slavery.
work conditions are not the be all / end all of satisfaction with work.
another aspect is human relations, and relationships of power between people at work - it is this aspect which you cannot control no matter how comfy you make the office and how easy you make the job. it is this aspect, that when present in bad form at a job, you can weigh whether you want to continue working there or not. at compulsory service, no such choice is available - instead of threatening to fire you when you fuck up, they threaten to not let you go home and suffer their presence longer. this is a universal character of all compulsory service, as it is illegal to not properly serve.
that service can be beneficial does not do a damn thing to erode the above fact, and in fact if its benefits are so universal then there is not much to be lost by leaving such work mandatory and instead investing in properly marketing service as beneficial.
national service is not pointless, compulsory service for the state is both contradictory to the argument that sustains it and inhumane. whether a cage is found comfy or not does not change its character as a cage, and all compulsory service is such a cage.
what exactly is inhumane about providing youth a valuable work experience.
You're just making huge wordy paragraphs and not making a simple answer.
What are you against when it comes to mandatory national service? In one sentence please!
the impossibility to say no when you cant stand the work and cant stand how the people, both commanders and colleagues, treat you. the impossibility to quit. the impossibility to dissent or sometimes even slightly deviate without being subjected to, essentially, imprisonment (for what is staying in a place against your will when you want to go home except imprisonment?)
And you talk about a cage, what about school? You're in a cage there from the age of 5. Except in school you're spoonfed and have no opportunity to critically think and solve problems.
schools are for children (incapable of giving consent and not fully liable as legal entities), military is for adults (fully liable agents with free will)
ok, so your argument is now clear.
not sure how this is different to school life (apart from the imprisonment part).
Now to address the issue.. you are complaining about "lack of freedom" within the service. This is all you had to say. Lack of freedom.
A few months without freedom is not going to harm kids. Unless there is genuine torture and inhumane practices occurring, it is not impossible for the service to be as bad as you say it is all the time.
As I said previously, it's the bias that I have no authority to argue over because you have had to endure 3 years worth of horror. That's not what I support at all.
What if I don't want to be "provided valuable work experience"?
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