Writer of "Sesame Street" Mark Saltzman confirms Bert and Ernie are a couple
66 replies, posted
Not saying it's not important either by any means. There just haven't been a lot of healthy asexual relationships shown either.
I dont like the thought that an idea being culturally important makes it a good idea.
It's that kind of thinking that created the generic "diverse group of kids" that was so prevalent in kids shows in the 90s.
Addressing these issues is important, but there's no point if you dont do it well.
Slapping the label of gay on these like 50 year old characters that were obviously not written to be gay doesn't really do the issue justice.
In fact, it almost feels like it devalues idea of homosexual relationships if any pair of same-sex people that aren't explicitly shown to be straight are made gay.
Being the dumb little five year old that I was I thought they were brothers when my parents joked about it because the idea of boys sharing everything by themselves in a house they own was weird but well I was five. Even now and then I do joke about the gay lover angle but yeah I can see where the idea stems from.
If the creators don't want Bert and Ernie to be gay, that's fine. If people and the writers want to joke and theorize about two male puppets for a preschool show being gay or not that's fine. Let Seasme Street or who ever has the reigns determine it. Not everything needs to have an agenda or bend to the whims of a joke or people wanting a statement. If the creators dont see it that way why should it be different other than the free interpretations of the audience?
Tbh I think messages like this needs to be more prominant. I mean I know shipping is a HUGE thing, but when it becomes political or demanded does things go sour. Not every same sex pairing needs to be gay, they can be the best of friends, brothers, etc etc.
Then again I thought that Adventure Time being theorized taking place after a nuclear apocalypse was the dumbest thing surrounding a story about a boy and his dog in a candy coated Oz so what do I know?
Everyone already knew this, what people really want to know is who's top and who is bottom
It being important is why it's a good idea. And there's really nothing to do other than just say they're a couple, like Ms. Piggy and Kermit.
I've seen so queer people cheering and celebrating how these icons are now representative of their kind of lifestyle. It's clearly enough justice, and it clearly not devaluing the idea of homosexual relationships. Why do you say "if any pair of same-sex couple etc" as if we've a surplus of gay couples? Like there's an actual issue in media that there are so many gay couples? We're nowhere near the point to say "well, if just any couple is gay then it devalues it." God, I wish we were.
Which it doesn't, btw, it normalizes it. And that's the goal. No one's trying to win Emmys for "Best Gay Couple in a Show" or anything like that, and there shouldn't have to be a "value" to prove. We're trying to normalize the idea of a same-sex couple. We don't need to normalize that a same-sex pairing is platonic, because that's already typical and expected.
Why is the bar so high for queer representation, when hetero representation has been doing however it wants for ages and no one's been saying "kind of devalues heterosexual relationships, don't you think?"
Actually, young boys have been isolating themselves for a good decade now. A majority don't have a best friend or friends by middle school so its a double edged sword.
We both need gay representation as well as heterosexual closeness between boys so they learn its okay to be close to other boys.
Clearly that's not the case when everybody thought Bert and Ernie were gay in the first place. And even when it got revealed that they weren't, people started clamoring to get their relationship changed. Even if they had to start attacking a 74-year old man on Twitter.
Are you genuinely implying that there's a social stigma of same-sex room mates, and that the idea is atypical and, in our world today, need to be explained and defended (Aka, what is for homosexuality, and what it is, and what it needs)? And why are you bringing up those tweets as if an outlier's behavior provides some kind of point?
Are you genuinely implying that conditions are good for young men and that spree killers and incels are not a larger social issue?
There is no right or wrong answer.
It would also make the memes even funnier
I genuinely have no idea how you reached from point A to here, nor how having Bert and Ernie being platonic roommates could possibly help avoid young men turning into spree killers and incels
Because you're providing a black and white option while clearly not understanding the implications of you're own arguement.
Instead of accusing me of oversimplifying my argument, please explain how the cons of making them gay outweight the pros. Because the arguments I've seen against making them gay are "they don't need to be" (until we hit "it'll help prevent incels" which, again, makes no sense to me).
Because they've been best friends since their fucking inception.
How the fuck does making them gay now not give the impression to boys that if you stay friends for to long tgey may actually be gay sound terrible.
You want actual representation, create new muppets, give them the proper respectful stories they deserve and stop lazily adding on markers to already existing characters for feel good points for the fucking adults. That's the most insulting part about all this. This entire arguement isn't for the the kids who need this, its for bunch of adults wanting to feel good themselves instead of creating the changes themselves.
Why are you guys taking the word of a writer and not the creator?
I mean, it's a lovely interview, but this is Word of Saint Paul VS Word of God
Just because you write them and invasion then as them as queer, doesn't mean they actually are
Not really worked up, just annoyed that we give scraps to minorities instead of proper respresentation.
it's pretty fucking weird that they are completely and utterly fine with ppl seeing their characters as straight but the moment a writer says they're gay they put out a public statement saying "uhh, no, they have no sexual orientation actually, they're puppets" like it's some kind of sex thing
did they ever put out a statement saying "miss piggy and kermit were never in a relationship actually, they can't be straight! they're just puppets"
I want you guys to keep in mind you're arguing about puppets.
Puppets. On a preschooler's show.
Stop. No one cares.
Clearly everyone does? This shit is all over the news and you're replying to it as well.
Besides representation is a pretty big deal, especially if shown early on.
Essentially stop trying to establish what doesn't exist outside of a joke. Let Sesame Street determine what to do with the show and it's characters. And like Swilly said, if you WANT some same-sex representation, like GOOD ones and not a veil disguise of one for one reason or another from earning brownie points or due to studio meddling making weak threads *ahem* These lame ass jokes, Legend of Korra, Transformers, and Kill la Kill*cough* , you make a new set of characters for that so no one has to jump through burning rings of fire writing for established characters.
Okay what
I thought Legend Of Korra had really nice representation, yes I know that it kinda at the last moment and kinda left unambitious, but the creators did and intentionally, wanted to make Korra bisexual
You have to understand that it's a children network and Korra's budget got slice, so they kinda fumble across in the finish line, but I don't understand why that's part of "the brownie points" or "studio meddling"
I don't know what you are talking about for Transformers
And I'm pretty damn sure that Kill la Kill doesn't have any seriously LGBT reps
Hence I mentioned "studio meddling." I know the creators had good intentions, but given the circumstances in legend of korra imho they should have dropped it knowing there would be nothing to work with without looking forced or a spur of the moment thing. What they could have done is left that to other media like they did with the original Avatar like The Search learning about Zuko's mother.
Second one is fairly new with one of the main characters was admitted to falling in love with someone confirmed to be of the same gender seemingly out of nowhere but to give the old character some relevancy. Despite being giant robots from outer space the artist or whoever thought that making them lock lips would be a good idea. Given her popularity back in the day as the "Sexy robot" troupeit was nothing short of weird and a slight bit of pandering.[Spoilers] It even looks like that famous RLWWII image with the soldier coming home after Japan surrendered.
Granted I think this one is a worse example as the series is nearing the finale and only NOW did it become a thing. Plus the editor and writer is his own boss so no studio meddling either which made it super weird given the lack of depth the pairing has currently.
Similar outing for the third series being Kill la kill was on its last episode where everything was coming together until "I want to go on a date with you" happened. Again not only was a spur if the moment thing with no context (granted its Mako
we are talking about), we were given the knowledge that Gammagori was going to be shoving off on the USS Mako but I guess not because "Mako is randum lolz". It's even still shown in the end credits that he was about to give Mako the flowers because it would only make sense given their history on the show. And yeah the OVA doesn't count either.
It's not like I have anything against this but it always feels kinda cheap to me when creators say that certain characters are gay or whatever long after movie/show/whatever was released and there was no indication of this in the actual show.
Are there even romantic relationships on Sesame Street?
That is dumb as hell, but then again, what to expect from John Scalzi
What a horrendously worded tweet, now the people that follow him will think Oz wants them to be straight .
Batman: The Animated Series had Harley and Ivy going hooking up in the subtext since 1993, and that was a show meant for kids as well. And that's an important part there as well: There was subtext. As in, an ongoing series of events and actions which reinforced the relationship. I knew about Legend of Korra for a while before actually sitting down to watch it, and because I use the Internet also knew that she hooked up with Asami at the end, so I was actively looking for signs that the two were warming up to each other. There are none. They are simply associates all the way up to the last ten or so seconds of the last episode. Bolin had more chemistry going with Korra than Asami did. It could even be argued that Kuvira did as well, alongside almost any other character which was simply present, because that is all Asami contributed to this supposedly building romance.
You can chalk all you want up to executive meddling, and I'm sure that didn't help any. But to say that the idea had to essentially be snuck in at the last second with no leadup or characterization because it's a kids show is not gonna fly with me. Because circling back around: Harley and Ivy, 1993
Does 'being gay is normal and acceptable' have to come with a side of 'if you're close with another man it must be because you're gay'? Can you think of no way to demonstrate that being gay is normal and acceptable without also reinforcing the incredibly toxic idea that straight men don't have close relationships with other men?
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