I'm chalking TF2's success up to the addition of this new hat.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/956347664412389810/45D9A44AFB13DA7A61B6CAB9A8390C55DFAB1444/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/940585265774444224/DCB9E0C516E766B659E049BD7793B7B9B0713E75/
Boomer Engie still out though. Rip.
Have you heard about the Mining & Smithing rework? about how Spacewar is used to play pirated games?
Spy is actually the most useless class in the game at the highest levels of play, not Heavy. And Heavy wouldn't be in such a bad spot right now if not for the years of nerfs he's received (of which only the most recent was finally reverted last year). I'm at a loss as to why the TF2 team seems to hate Heavy so much, considering that he's arguably the mascot of the entire game.
Before I begin, I am so sorry for this wall of text. I seriously cannot condense my thoughts any further without losing important details.
You are correct. It's perfectly legitimate for the game to revolve around the Medic, but in TF2, unlike in Chess, you have a variable distribution of classes, of varying effectiveness because of your teammates' skill levels, depending on your teammates' will - not only that, the adversary's distribution of classes is initially unknown or even dubious (!) if there are Spies. With this much uncertainty in the game loop, you shouldn't have one class that is so integral to the well-functioning of your team to the point where losing him is an absolute disaster and having him is... situationally good or indifferent, that's a different topic altogether. It makes the game a bit frustrating.
It's too much responsibility and too much power for one player of a total of 12, 18 or 24 players (I have no metrics for 4v4, sorry). No other class is as important or as powerful as the Medic, and that's ok, but the problem is that no class gets even CLOSE to the Medic (actually, the Demoman used to, but then he got nerfed); this makes the Medic a near-singular point of all failure, a Medic pick is >50% of the entire push. It's unfair to compare him to a Queen in the strategy layer, as that piece is controlled by one player who also controls all of his other pieces; the Medic's more comparable to a goalkeeper, but the goalkeeper is actually guarding a bomb that detonates in the team's proverbial face every time he fails to defend himself and/or the goal, then he disappears, and then he respawns a couple of seconds later.
The Crossbow makes things worse as I've described. I forgot to mention that it's much easier to use the Crossbow while defending than while attacking - that's why it can lead to stalemates.
Your analogy made your point perfectly, and I partially agree, but I believe I didn't make my stance clear, so I hope I've managed to clarify it. I'm not going into the Ubersaw or the Kritzkrieg because they add another degree of complexity and this post is getting huge already.Also TF2 and Chess arent shit nor did I even remotely imply it, dude pls.
I disagree about the implementation of class limits being much help, because the problems that I've described aren't amplified in annoyance or gravity when many players are on the match. I might have misunderstood your point, can you clarify please?
I don't remember exactly what my beef with the Gunboats is either, I put it there on a whim. I guess it's because I think that being able to make insane speedshots and jump all over the place for so little penalty is not very fair. For comparison, making a fast rollout from Badlands' mid respawn to the adversary's balcony is almost impossible with the Shotgun, but fair game with the Gunboats, even at 200 HP! It makes having the Shotgun too much of a liability, since having a good position is half of the battle, but you kind of need a secondary firearm once you run out of rockets in your chamber; it's a very frustrating decision to make.
Thank you for clarifying the difference between "solved" and "balanced", I am not well versed in this vocabulary.
I love TF2, it's my favourite game and I main Medic (though I've played a lot more of Soldier lately) - the observations that I've described about him come from a bit of experience and plenty of discussions with other experienced players. I also agree that it's very well balanced compared to other games, but it'd be a massive disservice to TF2 to not recognize its issues; my earlier post is also a gross oversimplification of what I think about its current state, it was more of a quick set of reasons why the game isn't perfectly balanced, not that it's completely unbalanced*. I would like to discuss more about the game's strategy layer, but I don't know many public forums that allow for that and I doubt that this thread is very appropriate for that matter, so I had to condense my thoughts as much as possible.
Addendum: Overwatch is OK, but its problems are completely different and further down the game's core, as far as I can tell. I don't have much experience in that game.
* (except my mini-rant about the Crossbow, that shit is legit broken and I meant every word, it is the root of all evil, nerf yesterday please)
No game lasts forever (except maybe World of Warcraft for some reason). Just gotta remember the good times you had and friends you made while you played it.
Just dropping by to point out that image is actually the nude engineer model with pants modeled on to him. I know this because of reasons.
Ok bye.
the fact TF2 doesn't have strong balance is the biggest draw to the game IMO. Overwatch devs have such a hardon for "balance" that the game is SO FUCKING UNFUN now. It's a cat and mouse game, all round long. Oh you chose hero X to counter my hero? I'll go hero Y to counter that! YAY FUN!
Early overwatch was a ton of fun because you weren't playing rock paper scissors all the time. There were imbalances which made it fun. Balance shouldn't be perfect, but should deal with the oddball OP class/heroes/etc instead. (and dont pull a paladins where every hero can 3 shot you across the map)
I get and agree with what you're saying, but you're misunderstanding something. "Balance" does not mean the same thing as "hard counters", which is what you're describing. Blizzard's terrible way of balancing and amateurish game, level, and hero ability designing is what makes the game a "pick x hero to fight y hero" game, not the fact that they are trying to balance it.
Overwatch has never been well-balanced. At least in TF2, every character feels usable in casual play.
When I've touched OW, it felt like I was handicapping the team if I chose a low tier because they were so much worse. Meanwhile, the weapons considered trash in TF2, like the Sun-on-a-Stick, can still be used in loadouts successfully without throwing the match.
Dude, you beef up medic like they're nigh-indestructible. After I finished maining Engi, I went Medic.
We are not indestructible.
I'd take Medic over any of the supports OW has to offer, mostly because he doesn't offer any bullshit that makes him infuriating to play against other than uber chaining.
Mei is perhaps the most visibly annoying, but she's always been pretty low tier as long as I recall.
To continue with your soccer metaphor... isn't the same thing? I know from experience that the keeper is unimportant for 90% of the game, since they only have to act whenever the enemy gets too close. But if suddenly, for some reason, your team lost your keeper, you'd feel their lack much more than 10% of the time, because the mere presence of the goalkeeper changes the game.
I think the main difference between these two situations is that, in TF2, the 'goalkeeper' is also an integral part of the offense, and they're equally excellent in both situation.
Yeah, the crossbow is a cool but ultimately lazy weapon. On the other hand, I think the Kritzkrieg and the Gunboats are the single two greatest weapons in the game. I don't see frustration with the gunboats, or the kritzkrieg. I see choice, I see important and meaningful choices, and meaningful choices are what MAKE competitive videogames. If a player feels frustrated with using the Gunboats, then I think they should really strongly reconsider their choices. Was the advantage gained from using the gunboats offset by the disadvantage of not having a backup weapon? If it was, then you just have to accept that you made the right choice - you can't literally win all the time, at least not based uniquely on which loadout you have equipped.
Also, I never said TF2 is perfectly balanced. It has a lot of issues. The point is that despite this issues, the feel of the game is amazing.
I've played TF2 for 2000 hours and if somebody offered me to play a little bit of it I would jump at the opportunity to have some fun with pals in it.
On the other hand, after 300 hours of Overwatch, I've definitely sworn off the game completely. I've had multiple people ask me if I wanted to play a round or two or Overwatch and I've had to tell that no, I would not do that, ever. It's been months since I played Overwatch.
Like, it's never surprising to me knowing that TF2 does so well after more than 10 years even with minimal input from developers. It's a game that was built to feel fun and fair, and it really only got better with time.
Dude, you beef up medic like they're nigh-indestructible. After I finished maining Engi, I went Medic.
We are not indestructible.
Yes, I did exaggerate a little. The Medic's self-heal isn't the end-all fuck-all of the Medic, but was the Scout healing speed boost really necessary? It's insane how much ground you can cover for your team just by running ahead with an Ubered Scout.
Actually, point by point you seem to mess up classes because I just saw the Engie thing. You do realize they're so fucking powerful most modern made maps by official and by community design their maps around the radius of the Sentry and its sightlines, yeah? Engineer is incredibly powerful with both an aggressive mini sentry and defensive buildings.
The Engineer's Sentries aren't THAT powerful, modern made maps make sure that every potential Sentry sightline is always accompanied by a viable flanking position. The Mini-Sentry only has 100 HP (one close-range RL rocket/one DH rocket, one pipe, one meatshot = dead), it's mostly effective when the enemy doesn't focus it immediately as it is plopped down, it requires deliberate positioning when the enemy's more focused on other more important targets. Using the Wrangler on a mini is very interesting and beefs it up quite a bit, but then you can't use the Shotgun or take your time to build other things like the Dispenser, which is an absolute godsend of a building.
The mini is, however, really good at racking up Assists and cheeky frags very very quickly, so using the Frontier Justice with it can lead to pretty insane results.
The Engineer always needs his team to protect his Sentry to some degree, that's why they work in the first place and that's a good thing!
Most of the Engineer's usefulness stems from consistent Dispenser/Teleporter placement and levelling, and that's where the difficulties arise because those buildings are defenseless on their own, slow to build and slow to level. The Engineer has a very hard time competing in more fast-paced matches compared to just about every other class.
Level 2 sentries are actually really fucking useful if you just want something barely poking out over a hill like in Upward, without the massive missle box you still have the two twin guns doing fuck-off level damage. The missles just add that final burst of killing damage for the heavy and peeking Scouts/Soldier/Demos.
I agree, Level Twos can be used creatively, though I doubt many people do this. The Level 3 has more HP, not just missiles. A Wrangled Level 3 takes a lot of effort to destroy because of the 66% in damage reduction. Presence/Positioning is usually half of the battle in TF2 and a Level 3 will always last longer than a Level 2 (except in your very, very specific case where a level 3's missile launcher hitbox can poke out).
Arguably, the biggest danger against Engineer are Soldiers just out of range and Demomen with Loch'n'Load but the Loch'n'Load is easily a desperation pick now and Soldiers are a distant have to open themselves up to both the Wrangler and any sniper. Spies are also just as dangerous, especially if you have a good one.
I personally prefer to use the Direct Hit if I REALLY need to help directly (no pun intended) in taking down a Sentry, since you can damage it consistently and quicker than the Engineer's repair rate it at any realistic range. The Spy's Sapper is an essential tool and it's always preferable to combine both sapping and shooting at the Sentry in order to get rid of it. The Loch'nLoad might be a bit excessive.
The Wrangler isn't that powerful at long range, the bullets start to spread and the missiles become easy to dodge. I agree about the Sniper's potential danger.
You're seemingly confusing Asymmetrical balance with point by point balance which is really stupid because TF2 has always been an asymmetrically balanced game.
I don't follow. Why is that stupid? Changing something in TF2 still implies changing an element that, being part of a greater whole, influences the rest of the game. It's completely fair to look critically at the elements, which is what I did, even if it was in an overly simplified manner. Nowhere did I imply that the game needs to be symmetrically balanced - that implication would completely defeat my argument since, as you said (and I never disagreed with) the game is asymmetrically balanced. Maybe I'm not understanding what you meant with "point by point balance" and/or how it defeats asymmetrical balancing. I've already conceded that the game revolving around the Medic is not necessarily a bad thing in an earlier post, if that was the problem...
and it really only got better with time.
Besides this one bit (which I only partially agree with), I agree with you. The game's biggest issues come from the updates - it has become so bloated and chock-full of shit that running it on anything that's not a 2016 mid-range PC will net you wildly different framerates in different maps and combat scenarios. I remember back in 2009 I got consistent 100+ FPS on a Core 2 Duo and a HD4850. Now in 2018 on a FX-6350 and a HD6850 (granted it is barely-midrange hardware from 2012, plus Piledriver has serious issues with single-threaded programs) I sometimes get <60 FPS in a chaotic Upward battle with a good fps config. It's very strange and very frustrating since this is a game from 2007, but that's what I get for not saving money to buy a new computer I guess.
Yes, modern maps are designed for the sentry because its so powerful that you need flanks. Engineer is one of the most powerful classes in the game next to Soldier and Medic.
I do have to wonder why there's such a massive player surge over an update that I've heard everyone I know describe as "extremely disappointing."
I spent many hours with TF2. Played it for probably about 4 years straight every day since 2009. Met many many friends through it, some of which I still talk with regularly to this day. It will easily be one of the games that has defined a chunk of my life, and that I will remember fondly for the rest of my life.
The game in its current state though, I just can't get back into. The game was already starting to feel like a bit of a mess whenever fatigue set in for me and I dropped out, and it's only gotten messier since. Not to mention the focus on quickplay over community servers seems to have killed, well, the sense of community the game once had to me. It's less about a mix of playing the game straight or coming across some crazy fun custom content, and more about just playing the game straight.
It's still a fine game, and if you still enjoy it I'm seriously glad you are because again, I had so many good times with it and I hope you continue to. It's just personally not for me anymore. I've had my time with it, and I will always remember that time.
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-qwRh6SL/2/4b5a0d46/O/i-qwRh6SL.jpg
2007 is calling, it has your solution.
I had a good chuckle as I read the replies that dared imply that Overwatch had even a fibre of good balancing in it. Blizzard has taken the approach of making every new hero so annoying, but the 'top tiers' are simply more annoying than the rest. People complained about the Dead Ringer in TF2 being a 'get-out-of-jail-free card' (never understood that), but in Overwatch there's a get-out-of-jail-free character: Tracer. Or Widowmaker if your chaser has limited mobility options. For every problem TF2 has, Overwatch has twenty - Sniper can't wipe a team, Widowmaker can, especially when she activates literal wall hacks. Doesn't help that Blizzard also tends to 'balance' whatever new thing the OW sub-reddit is whining about, resulting in absolutely no consistency in the game & its balancing. Kick up enough fuss on the sub-reddit and I'm sure you could get a character completely removed.
Keep in mind that the wait between Meet your Match and Jungle Inferno was 470 days, while the wait since jungle inferno has been about 435 days. Now that's a real fucking long wait, but this talk about "tf2 isn't being worked on anymore" is pretty exaggerated. If you weren't ringing that bell before jungle inferno there's no basis for ringing it now.
It's clear that the tf2 team is a lot smaller than the game deserves, though.
Yeah we all know why that is
I remember using that last panel as a spray in TF2 way back, always placed it in front of spawn.
after 11 years in development, hopefully it was worth the wait.
In this thread: Anti-Overwatch circlejerk, when it's a much, much different game that should be more compared to MOBA like League of Legends & Defense of the Ancient than Team Fortress 2, even
thought Team Fortress 2 was one of the inspiration for this game.
Early Overwatch was as much of a Rock Paper Scissors game as Overwatch today, I do not get why people keep saying the opposite: Playing Winston against a Reaper is always death sentence, the
whole game philosophy was always based around being able to switch around when your "counter" is picked even from the very beginning.
And yeah, a meta in Overwatch is fought by playing the exact same meta but let's not act like 6v6 isn't the same.
Having 100k active players after an update shouldn't be spectacular for a free-to-play game. The question is what percentage of the active player base is regularly putting money into the machine. Valve games are really only dependent on a central server for their loot systems, but both TF2 and CS:S/CS:GO can theoretically continue without support until the end of days with community servers
For instance CS:GO's average players hasn't really increased significantly (20%) despite going free. While games like PUBG, Monster Hunter, and GTAV still have fairly high player counts despite a minimum cost for entry. If 50k people logged into TF2 just for the chance at free cosmetics I wouldn't be surprised.
Maybe its just me, but looking at the TF2 website they seem to be going into Left 4 Dead 2 mode with the game now.
I looked through this thread and not once did somebody point out most of the players were bot accounts made to receive giftapaults.
To say that TF2-6s is the same as OW-6s is really dumb considering the only overlap is the KOTH gamemode also OW somehow took the stopwatch/payload mechanic and made it worse
In TF2 at any point a single player can pop off and basically carry at arguably any level in comp or casual.
For me personally there is WAY too many stuns, shields, gimmicky situations/characters in OW and I really don't like the characters that don't require aim, It feels edgy to complain about autoaim heros but the experience of "Shoot shields for 5 minutes, get stunned 2/3 times or grav orb'd, then 4 more ults get used while a wiston is in his buble zapping my dick and my teams dicks" isn't very fun to me
but I understand why they put heros that aren't aim relient in the game. I've always been a big advocate for comp tf2 and I'll always have hope for the game and hope those who don't know about it give it a try one day.
What's this about acid particles and broken shaders?
This is probably the biggest difference between comp TF2 and comp OW, you're so reliant on your team mates in OW it's really insane. It's almost impossible to start carrying off raw aiming and movement (movement tech in OW is very limited) unless the enemy is really, really uncoordinated and doesn't use stuns.
Also the map design in OW is really weird
I don't like having people focusing me so please don't remind them to!!
Happy to see TF2 continue to do well.
I haven't played in years since I forcefully quite a few thousand hours in, within the first few years.
But TF2 is genuinely the best team based shooter I have ever played. How shit like Overwatch gets all the hype while TF2 is right there I will never understand.
I agree. Some new weapons and hats in the first class updates was awesome though, but ultimately shit got too color.
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