• 'Traditional masculinity' deemed harmful
    104 replies, posted
That's not even really true, but through secondary sources, that's the kind of image that mainstream feminism has been given.
who is actually saying this
i think you've spent too much time on /r/TheRedPill/
It's kind of like the militant vegan thing, you hear about it alluded to more often than you actually encounter it (if at all from my experience when it comes to vegans)
If it it can happen to litterally anything then do those things have anything to do with it to begin wit?, doesn't that just become more of a statement of human nature being paranoid?
Yes I am pretty sure that's what he actually wants to get at, instead of boiling down on meaningless platitudes that are applicable to quite literally everything
This is, of course, true. Any group has its outliers and its overzealous weirdos. This is where you lose me a bit, because it's not an absolute rule at all and you're stating it as an absolute. The issue I have is when the backlash to something becomes more damaging than the thing itself. The best example is probably the militant anti-SJW crowd. SJWs are an incredibly irritating group that spout off some real garbage a lot of the time, but in reality they're a tiny, volatile spearhead of various movements that really have the right idea. They're also shockingly few in number. Anti-SJWs have, I think, made a serious and negative impact on society, and unlike SJWs themselves, they're not at all difficult to find. Anti-SJWs can be traced backwards and forwards into the alt-right movement, a strong resistance towards womens' and LGBT rights, and votes and support for the Trump administration. They've also done a great job of irreversibly poisoning a great number of crucially important dialogues that we need to be having. This thread is an example in itself, many of the issues that arise when discussing the roles of masculinity and femininity are artifacts of this anti-SJW counterculture. While dangerous and radical subcultures do exist, they're not always worth fighting. We'd all have been better off leaving the SJWs be and ignoring them completely.
In fact I think one of the reasons we are seeing such a surge in the right lately is because of the anti-sjw mentality. Everywhere I look, I see people who get incredibly pissed off at political correctness and initiatives to try and improve diversity and understandings of other people, even from women and minorities, though especially from white guys. In fact one of the most touted things about Trump is that he's not right-wing, he's "Anti-Left", and that's an incredibly dangerous thing. Do you know what ideology and government system is principally based on the idea of being against left wing and liberal (and I mean in this case democratic ideals) ideologies? The fascists of Italy and Germany. They were incredibly loved by the conservative elements of their governments and populace entirely because they put forth policies that dissuaded the left and pushed them underground, while the leftwing elements of those nations bickered with one another seeing each other as the real enemy when the fascists were growing right underneath them. It's no wonder in a nation that has increasingly become distrustful of it's political class, combined with years of exposure of extremist leftwing race, gender and identity politics (despite in reality these extremists being very few and far between), that people would come to support not the right wing, but an anti-left outsider who promises to change everything and prevent the libtards from screwing up the American way of life. It's scary shit man.
I phrased that badly. SJWs are not dangerous, they never were, and the ones that do exist haven't been crushed by the anti-SJW culture. If anything they're a bit emboldened now. The backlash to SJWs is very dangerous on its own terms and should never have happened. It's fucked up a lot of important stuff.
What the fuck is this shit doing out of Polidicks, mods?
Aggressively oversimplifying social dynamics is going to get us absolutely nowhere
Were they really? I'd argue the prevalent sexism and racism existed much earlier, and were much stronger and more widely accepted by society than the social justice movements that oppose them. You make the mistake of assuming that, just because one arbitrary group is labeled "SJWs" and the other, arbitrary group has "anti" in their name, that social justice itself cannot be a counter-movement
The current problems of toxic masculinity I see are among the men especially in countries like India, Islam-dominated countries such as Iran, Arabia, Egypt, etc. With the amount of woman-hating ideologies, old as shit punishments towards women, women being less worth than men it's no surprise. These people (who also partially live in countries of Europe) have such a backwards behavior towards women. They sexually harass them all the time. In Egypt pretty much every woman suffered sexual harassment so far. They show dominance through violence and feel hurt in their "honor" if they get rejected by a girl which ultimately leads towards them becoming even more violent. I just need to look at the newspapers about domestic violence, rapes, etc. and it's often these people with their old "values" that they have been raised with. Not to completely ignore that some men in countries like USA or European countries have issues as well, with their masculinity but whenever the topic about old and traditional masculinity values comes up, it always reminds me how the people in India, Iran, Arabia, etc. treat women and how they treat them in countries like Germany, Sweden, France, etc.
I am sure the women that face misogyny in western countries love to have their criticisms dismissed because other people have it worse
I think you need to read it again. I have written it twice in my text that the men I talk about also live in western countries and bring their toxic masculinity values with them that women in western countries have to deal with. I'm in no way saying that western women's "criticisms should be dismissed" just because other women in countries like India have it worse. We have a refugee crisis going on with a lot of men from the countries I talk about coming to western countries, taking their backwards views and opinions of women with them and treating them in misogynistic ways and the women face these problems in their own countries because of it.
You have previously peddled far-right misinformation without a second thought, then run off when confronted and proven wrong. Pardon me if I don't put too much stock in your opinion. No, gender issues in the west have not all been brought over by refugees.
Sometimes I just give up voicing my opinion because people don't want to hear opinions they don't like. You can't be neutral about anything anymore.You are either leftist, left-extremist, right-winged or right-winged extremist. I voice my opinions, sometimes realize that they are wrong but overall it's just a drop in the ocean so I don't care too much. I have never said that "gender issues in the west have not all been brought by refugees". Don't put words into my mouth. My point is that due to the mass migration of people the women deal with additional problems affecting them directly.
You didn't say a single thing about sexism that's native to western countries, and blamed it solely on foreigners. You may think you're being impartial, but the narrative you constructed shifts all the blame to them. No, I am not wrong in telling you that this is what you said, because that's simply what your words meant. When I said you were being dismissive of issues faced by western women, you immediately looked for another way to blame foreigners. Only now did you mention that those problems are "additional" (however I'd still question how widespread you think they are).The truth is that you wouldn't have considered native sexism if I hadn't directly confronted you about it. Because, as I said, your mindset is dismissive of it. As for "opinions people don't like" - give me a fucking break, "The majority of refugees that come into these countries are men who say that they are minors but in reality between 20 and 35." is not an opinion, it is straight up far-right misinformation, I don't care what position you personally subscribe to, that is a description of the bullshit you've peddled
Alright, I see my mistakes here. I have read my posts this time and realize that I should use my brain sometimes. There isn't more I can do than changing my behaviour and stance towards a demographic and read my sources for once. Sometimes a mirror helps. I will spend more time on research and conduct opinions and especially information about important statements to better suit my argumentations and spout less shit around. I will take this lesson to improve my argumentation because I have made lots of mistakes.
traditional masculinity today just demands you to be a selfish asshat to everybody below you
I would look into the academic fields to see how not “quashed” they really are. there very much is a voice in the academic sphere which isn’t based on evidence that has only been getting louder. Look at Jomathan Haidts book about this subject for more details.
Maybe it is time you stop listening to the information that comes from that "mainstream sphere" because is wrong. Except that feminism isn't an ideology, is just a fight for rights like the Queer groups. There's not such a thing as "tribal warfare". That and the concept of "SJWs" doesn't actually exist, they were created by the alt-right and pushed across every single available media to fight back to what it is believed to be "a lose of common conservative values". Tabloids especially likes to cherrypick the most extreme and wacky of cases and twist it on a way it can used as a weapon ( this strategy is being employed on Queer people as well, often against trans ). Think of the "Cultural Marxism" lie, is pretty much the same bullshit. I truly recommend to all those who thinks on the existence of "radical and 'normal' feminism" to actually explore and research ourselves. Sure, there may be some people who pushes with more enthusiasm than others, but is a real far cry from what Internet thinks, especially on Reddit and 4Chan. It is easy as just listen women This is not even related to this thema, get out of here with such blatant racism.
Who are you trying to fool with "SJWs don't exist" I mean I'm all for not using the term "SJWs" because it's basically been completely destroyed at this point and is misused more often than not but to claim the "concept" doesn't exist requires such extreme cognitive dissonance when almost everyone who frequents the internet has seen at least one example
So when there’s reproduction issues in studies in fields like gender studies, sex, psychology and other related fields that seem to be driven by ideology and not evidence, that’s not actually happening? Why are so many professors from so many political backgrounds coming together on that point? Is that “fake news”?
I hate how locked in masculinity is locked to ome tract, its not even historically true either. And its doing massive damage to young boys do are increasingly unable to find friends let alone have a best friend .
oh wow so what essentially has been a part of the human species since the beginning of us has been deemed harmful this is just fucking dumb
Lots of traits that worked out for humans thousands of years ago are no longer useful or even actively harmful in our modern society.
i get the slight idea you didn't actually read anything besides the headline
men aren't committing suicide because they feel like they aren't allowed to cry, they're committing suicide because this trash society has them trapped and incapable of truly being men. there's no more adventure, just a deathmarch through a life you hate trying to find minor blips of anaesthesizing entertainment and maybe a fleeting moment of true happiness to distract you from the pointlessness of existence in this consumerist meat grinder of a society.
I mean you can prefer the old world. But i much prefer our new one where we gave up on having real wars and the power to create and share beautiful things is in everybody's hands, not just an elite few. Not to mention the much greater range of self-expression you're allowed now.
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