Such a complicated and thorny topic.
It really seems to me that it'd be almost impossible to balance sports with this in mind.
Men who transition after puberty have markedly different bone densities and muscle structures, and that doesn't go away over night with any amount of therapy.
I'm not happy they took her records away, i'm honestly a little indifferent but like I said, this is a very thorny topic with a lot of emotional baggage to be dealt with carefully.
Here we go again.
Good, competitors aren't standing for this bullshit. A large part of the powerlifting community is boycotting events if leagues don't address this issue and make a specific league for transgendered people.
clearly this means the true social justice goal should be to make humanity unisex.
But seriously, my take is that the judges should’ve sorted this out earlier before there were world records at stake. And the LGBT movements really should come together to figure out how to handle athlete rights given this being a clear case of physical build being important.
“It was revealed that this female lifter was actually a male in the process of becoming a Transgender female,”
This is an important fact to consider.
but even post transition, the strength built under a previously more male physique isn't just going to go away, or be feminized suddenly.
I have a friend on Twitter who got angry about this happening in another sport but I don't really see another solution whilst keeping it fair. I'm going to refer to trans people by their preferred pronouns of course, but there are going to be biological benefits we shouldn't ignore.
It does seem like most people transition later in life, ie past the age of puberty so competing in there pre-transition group makes sense. Since how you look shouldn't really effect sports anyway and whether you feel more like a woman or a man in mind shouldn't have any bearing on your athletic performance. For those who do transition before puberty it seems too overwhelmingly complicated to make any blanket rule that a separate group would be easier.
Why not just have transgender folk compete in their own tournaments? We already separate men, women, disabled folk. The more inclusive you try to be in some scenarios the more problems you can create, as shown.
So that would be 1 for male-to-female and 1 for female-to-male right? And then theres post and pre puberty transition differences.
Not a big pool of people to compete with. Especially localy.
could it be that the problem is actually the segregation of categories for brackets by gender, instead of, yknow, attributes actually relevant for a competition that is about raw strength?
but god forbid we change the system, who cares about minorcases like these, right? after all, minorities are not statistically significant!
What would you suggest? Muscle mass doesn't correlate directly to strength. And going on things like qualifying lifts opens the door to sandbagging.
If you just compare muscle mass against muscle mass, you still have people who have similar muscle masses but vastly more strength.
Look at someone like Jon Jones, he's 93kg, but comparing him to any other 93kg athlete, he's stronger. He has what's called a very high nerve to muscle ratio activation. Basically what that means is that he utilizes more of the muscle fibre available to him than almost anyone else in his weight class.
stupid as fuck.
should've just made them eat soy before the comp
how can they not measure the same qualifications by which they supposedly have disqualified this person?
surely if they can watch performance and decide to qualify or disqualify a person, as done here, something of the sort can be used to construct other, more nuanced brackets?
The IOC did some pretty deep scientific investigation into this and ruled that if your testosterone level had been below 10 nmol/l for a year prior, then you had no unfair advantage compared to cisgender women. Whilst there's some evidence that bone density takes longer to change (but does change). This is a good article about a study the IOC looked at, which suggested that trans women performed as you'd expect for a cis woman of a similar calibre. There's several other papers, such as this one which specifically mentions a reduction in bone density, and whilst more research would always be better, there certainly isn't a good scientific basis for separating trans people in sporting events right now. That research does focus more around track and field events, so if someone wanted to do a proper study to see if the time-frames differed for thing such as weightlifting, then there could be a proper conversation about it, but right now it's based on misinformation and prejudice.
It's also worth noting that Michael Phelps had genetic advantages which meant he produced a lot less lactic acid than everyone else, which was treated as a great gift rather than an unfair advantage, although that applies more to the Semenya case than this one.
You think the disabled communities have a large pool of people to choose from? Yet they get on with it.
Any advantage, no matter how minor, that trans people get is going to be viewed as completely unacceptable because even though people might not be willing to say it out loud, that just view trans female athletes as just men.
This doesn't quite apply in this case, but even if a trans female athlete had 0 advantages due to her being on hormones for long enough, the public and other female athletes would find that to be unacceptable.
The simple fact of the matter is that people are livid at trans people for existing.
The woman in the article, however, was clearly not on hormones for long enough to compete in a fair manner
Also, trans leagues are completely unreasonable suggestions, it's literally just saying "let's shove these unacceptable people somewhere else".
According to the article, she'd been taking them for at least 11 months before she was approved to start competing because she met existing rules, and the records in question happened. Assuming she didn't require a lot of tweaking of dosages, then it's not unreasonable to suggest she was reasonably in line with those olympic regulations. Obviously that's speculation but she met their rules and now there's backlash from others who feel undermined by her success without actual evidence that she had unfair advantages.
how the fuck are there so many "winner" ratings here, thats pretty gross
I know Facepunch isn't a shining beacon of queer acceptance but Jesus why would you celebrate this
Because fully understanding trans issues takes effort and being a transphobe doesn't.
Lmao oh grow the fuck up, facepunch is very non-transphobic
Most people rated winner because they feel like it's unfair to the other women that the trans person alledgely has an advantage. Not because facepunch or the majority of this thread hates trans and want to see that girl be fucked over. You shouldnt wave away a debate as the other side just being haters.
Whether or not that's true, I personally dont know as I havent finish researching to form a real opinion.
maybe judge people less on their rating and more on what theyre saying and thinking like in the posts above you.
Suddenly facepunch cares about sports whenever a transgender person gets involved in sports.
The solution is to desegregate sports completely and have it all based on rankings which put you in a league of peers who are relatively your level at the sport. That is the only way to move forward in a post-gender world. Get over this weird fucking obsession, obviously its unfair but there are better solutions then forcing them to play in the "mens league".
Gendered sports are problematic. There are women would could easily play in the NBA and would be paid much more if they did so, but since they are women they are forced to play in the WNBA. Shit is problematic and what league you play in should be 100% on your skill.
Are you five?
Secondly there's a pretty large contingency of fappunch that don't give no fucks about your junk or what you'd need to your junk to be for the rest of your life to be *happy.
*Many transgendered people have depression and limbic pathway issues and quel surprise not only after reassignment that depression does not go away, but you can live in place like Edmonton where the entire social and logistical infrastructure has gone out of their way to be supportive and have a solid environment out the yaya and still be down as fuck.
And you know what's gross? What's gross is two people that weigh the same but one has 40% denser bones and and an equal amount of red muscle mass and can casually give their competitors concussion, brain swelling that lasted for three months and permanent eye and hearing damage based on literally cracking their skulls open in three places.
So maybe adjust your fifth grade virtue signaling to a more nuanced and ironically open minded position because there is no rote single set solution consisting of sitting your ass in social media.
A lot of people may not agree, but those titles were not fairly won against cis women. But before you smash that box rating hear me out.
This woman had been through male puberty and most of their life (one article says shes 44 this year?) under the influence of natural testosterone, a heavier body and most likely greater workload to boot. If there actually has been 25 years of producing natural male hormones going on, 11 months on hormone blockers isn't going to undo all of that. Various tissues and nerve connections were built under the influence of activities and testosterone that don't disappear overnight, especially with continued heavy resistance work that triggers your body to repair constantly.
To supplement the above, they began seriously lifting back in 2016, self-admittedly, before transitioning and use of hormone blockers and estrogen. If events line up that means they had a whole year of training and recovery with influences of testosterone and additional growth hormones triggered by heavy compound lifts. Given that they had such a *head* start and continued lifting in a manner that benefits bone densities and muscle mass & strength through the beginning of their transition and straight to competition, she probably didn't see a significant reduction in strength and endurance from their pre-hrt body to who they are now.
Its unfair to exclude her, but its also unfair to the women who started with a biologically female body.
post gender world
Uh huh, and I hear we've got particle compensators for our teleporters as well.
i dont understand how it is possible to rate it winner even if you think the ciswomen in question had an unfair match.
there are no winners here - not the ciswomen, who had to fight against someone with a clear natural advantage, nor this transwoman - who was essentially publicly shamed by having such a debacle happen in the first place. all of this as a result of a flawed archaic system that segregates based on gender, which they have tried to salvage by allowing people's gender identity to factor in, instead of outright scrapping it because it is becoming amply clear some people have more advantages than others. none of this would have happened in the first place if the system wasnt built this way.
would a similar situation have happened if, say, somebody had a similar advantage but was assigned the same gender at birth? i think not - because the current system can only find an ad-hoc justification for transpeople in this situation, who it can decide to shove in the other gender bracket with the flimsy justification "oh they were actually biologically the other gender". could even this hypothetical, as well as this very real situation in the OP, not have been avoided in a non-gender-segregated system?
i repeat again - if they have no way to quantify the qualifications by which such a person cannot be considered a valid contestant in the women's bracket, by what absurd chain of logic can they arrive at fair and solid justification to retroactively take it away from people? is this not a clear proof the system is flawed and an alternative must be found? or are those only a problem when it suddenly becomes a majority, because the status quo is sacred?
Is this seriously getting rated baby (and not even challenged in a reply) by people being babies about something that makes sense from an actual scientific standpoint?
Grow the fuck up, not everything is ~transphobia~.
Bad that the person is hated on for being trans, not bad that they were disqualified for competing so early into transition. It's unfair.
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