Marine drill instructor sentenced to 10 years in prison for targeting Muslim recruits - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Mmrnmhrm;52885210]Is there any evidence that things need to be this way to toughen up the recruits or is it just ""common sense""?[/QUOTE] You can train good soldiers without abusing the shit out of them. Can't speak for the rest of the world but the soldiers I've met from Norway, Finland, Denmark and Swedes are generally really good at their job. Take note that out of these countries above Sweden is the only one without conscription. IMO you need to put a clear line between tough love and abuse, because the latter doesn't work in the long run.

[QUOTE=LoLWaT?;52885464]I wonder how this treatment stacks up to what one would find in the "closely-knit" SOF communities by comparison. If physical abuse and mind games are par for basic/boot, what extremes do those people put up with from their superiors? [sp]I hope it's not rape but I feel like it could be rape[/sp][/QUOTE] The military isn't ABOVE the law. No physical harm is allowed. Mentally - there is a line between teaching a lesson and just pure abuse.

[QUOTE=Viper123_SWE;52884997]As someone who's from a foreign military (Swedish Armed Forces, Homeguard) I will never understand the boot camp behaviour some militaries enforce. To me breaking down recruits in order to toughen them don't yield the optimal results wanted. Sure, you'll be tough mentally. But at what cost? You will always be in a Fight or Flight-mode, the system encourages you to be an aggressive drone, a warmachine. Citizens of the country you protect don't need hyperlethal terminators, they need people with the right knowledge and motivation to protect them. Citizens of other countries regularly abused by terrorists and/or dictators don't need redneck racist assholes, they need people that can shield and protect them, people that value democracy. The only time I heard an officer yell angrily during bootcamp was when one of the guys had left his weapon unattended. What happened afterwards? We had a talk, the entire unit just sat down and talked about the importance of always watching our pals. To me the real strength is found when you realize that you're riding this train all the way to the station. Not because you survived forced bullying. I got my strength during my medic training. After tending to a wounded for two and a half hours while under enemy fire I realized that I could actually do this. I wanted to do this. Officers and DIs should be mentors, not boogeymen. They should be like your parents and teach you everything you need to know plus a little more. When you reach the end and take the soldier's oath you should feel proud, not exhausted because you went through hell.[/QUOTE] does that type of instructing show in how the troops operate?

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;52885479]does that type of instructing show in how the troops operate?[/QUOTE] Yes it does. Numbly screaming and abusing troops was common in saf before. Results where it didn't work as conscripts started to work together but hated the superiors and acted more independent and refused some orders.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52884934]You know, [URL="http://www.kpbs.org/news/2013/feb/15/camp-pendleton-marine-gets-life-sentence-killing-f/"]when your friend dies [/URL] at the hands of someone who never should have made it through boot camp in the first place but skated through on a hazing card it's hard to be sympathetic. When your [URL="http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sdut-osprey-crash-at-sea-command-investigation-2015jun30-story.html"]old bunk mate dies due to negligence[/URL], not unlike falling asleep on your post in bootcamp, its hard to be sympathetic.[/QUOTE] Does weeding out the people unsuited for the job require the horrendous stuff that JeSuisIkea described? Given that other countries, and other services within the US for that matter, seem to produce competent soldiery without that level of abuse, the answer seems to be no. For that matter, are you at all familiar with civilian federal officer training? It's night and day in attitude compared to this idea of abusive basic training. CIA, DoD, and FBI field personnel are routinely put in situations where their decisions can cost the lives of their fellow Americans, so their training is necessarily strict and designed to screen out the people who aren't suited to it. But that means physical and mental conditioning through adverse training conditions, not outright abuse. Going for a long run on less than an hour of sleep, yes. Being forced to skip multiple sequential meals during hard exercise, no (except as part of survival training- in which case it's carefully monitored). Cracking ribs in simunition force-on-force, yes. Beating the shit out of a fellow recruit as group retribution, no. Sitting in a hut inhaling CS fumes until you can't see, yes. Doing fuck-fuck games with bleach until someone has long-term lung damage, no. Psychological and physical interrogation training, yes. Forcing the Muslim kid to spin in the dryer until he renounces his faith, fucking seriously? These organizations still filter out people who aren't suited for the job and will get others killed, they just do it exclusively through field-relevant tests and conditioning. Training can still be difficult without involving frat-house hazing. This isn't just a civilian-organization thing; I had the opportunity to work alongside a contingent of Royal Marines and their training culture was entirely unlike their American counterparts as well. There's a fine line between conditioning recruits and outright abuse, and the former seems to be consistently overused as a justification for the latter.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52884934]You know, [URL="http://www.kpbs.org/news/2013/feb/15/camp-pendleton-marine-gets-life-sentence-killing-f/"]when your friend dies [/URL] at the hands of someone who never should have made it through boot camp in the first place but skated through on a hazing card it's hard to be sympathetic. When your [URL="http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sdut-osprey-crash-at-sea-command-investigation-2015jun30-story.html"]old bunk mate dies due to negligence[/URL], not unlike falling asleep on your post in bootcamp, its hard to be sympathetic.[/QUOTE] Don't American troops "volunteer" for a paycheck that essentially serves as "wellfare with glory"? If you'd been drafted like your grandparents and parents, you'd have my sympathy. But as far as I see it, you signed up to kill brown people and have some dis-passionate DI clean up the mess that your parents made on you. All while living on "not wellfare". So I really can't sympathise with this "fuck all the new kids" view-point you got going on there. People don't go in tumblers, they go into bullets to serve the rich guy. You know that, the DI knows that and the recruit knew that. It's why putting him in with the laundry was not only fucking stupid, but petty as fuck. Someone called it out as a frat club and I'm inclined to agree. If you really HAVE to let the DI run rampant and blatantly mistreat someone, let them mistreat the redneck PVT Pyle of the group, who's already only there to kill and fuck shit up. They're the unreliable ones. THEY pose the real danger to you in a war zone. Putting people in with the laundry only serves to alienate them from the group and if that doesn't make it harder to trust them, I don't know what does. So why are you in favour of increasing distrust and animosity within a unit? That's really a weird world-view.

If events you endure in Boot Camp cause you to become any less of a soldier, you're doing it wrong. Using bleach and breaking bones deliberately are obvious no-nos. Dividing everyone and making them fight everyone will only break down the team building, causing hate rather than bondness. The Marines are supposed to be tough, not fearful bullies.

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;52885479]does that type of instructing show in how the troops operate?[/QUOTE] Like Freaka said, yes it works very well and shows with the soldier. For starters during international exercises we're always praised for our professionalism. Secondly, the SAF got rid of the classic bootcamp mentality the same time it got rid of collective punishment. Today the SAF is more of a company in the sense that we're all colleagues (equals) with officers and instructors acting as bosses (as in, respectful yet commanding). What I think is important to note, which also applies to the US Armed Forces, is that there's no conscription. You shouldn't be punished for volunteering for military service.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;52886171]Don't American troops "volunteer" for a paycheck that essentially serves as "wellfare with glory"? If you'd been drafted like your grandparents and parents, you'd have my sympathy. But as far as I see it, you signed up to kill brown people and have some dis-passionate DI clean up the mess that your parents made on you. All while living on "not wellfare". So I really can't sympathise with this "fuck all the new kids" view-point you got going on there. People don't go in tumblers, they go into bullets to serve the rich guy. You know that, the DI knows that and the recruit knew that. It's why putting him in with the laundry was not only fucking stupid, but petty as fuck. Someone called it out as a frat club and I'm inclined to agree. If you really HAVE to let the DI run rampant and blatantly mistreat someone, let them mistreat the redneck [B]PVT Pyle[/B] of the group, who's already only there to kill and fuck shit up. They're the unreliable ones. THEY pose the real danger to you in a war zone. Putting people in with the laundry only serves to alienate them from the group and if that doesn't make it harder to trust them, I don't know what does. So why are you in favour of increasing distrust and animosity within a unit? That's really a weird world-view.[/QUOTE] Uhh I think you need to re-watch Full Metal Jacket buddy because Pvt Pyle was the one getting shit on who eventually breaks and kills his DI and then himself. I don't recall him being a redneck either.

[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;52886640]Uhh I think you need to re-watch Full Metal Jacket buddy because Pvt Pyle was the one getting shit on who eventually breaks and kills his DI and then himself. I don't recall him being a redneck either.[/QUOTE] All i remember are those psycho eyes.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52884934]You know, [URL="http://www.kpbs.org/news/2013/feb/15/camp-pendleton-marine-gets-life-sentence-killing-f/"]when your friend dies [/URL] at the hands of someone who never should have made it through boot camp in the first place but skated through on a hazing card it's hard to be sympathetic. When your [URL="http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/sdut-osprey-crash-at-sea-command-investigation-2015jun30-story.html"]old bunk mate dies due to negligence[/URL], not unlike falling asleep on your post in bootcamp, its hard to be sympathetic.[/QUOTE] This is just a transparent appeal to emotion, and does nothing to actually address the point. You are attempting to justify literal torture.

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;52887109]This is just a transparent appeal to emotion, and does nothing to actually address the point. You are attempting to justify literal torture.[/QUOTE] If anyone bothered to read my original posting on the front page in full I explain my reasoning. The Marine Corps is an institution whose primary mission is to kill other people. The people who are trained to carry out that task face significantly more hardships past boot camp, with boot serving as the catalyst to harden young men and women for the harsh realities of war. You want to know what a real haze fest is, go to SERE school. There you'll enjoy wandering either the forests of Maine or the desert of California with minimal food or clothing, face literal torcher including things like being sprayed with a firehouse while naked during the winter and having your fingers broken, and being beaten on a daily basis. We all have different experiences in the military, and we all take it from different aspects. My aspect is a direct reaction to my experiences, something your average paper pusher or maintenance guy doesn't experience.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52887461]If anyone bothered to read my original posting on the front page in full I explain my reasoning. The Marine Corps is an institution whose primary mission is to kill other people. The people who are trained to carry out that task face significantly more hardships past boot camp, with boot serving as the catalyst to harden young men and women for the harsh realities of war. You want to know what a real haze fest is, go to SERE school. There you'll enjoy wandering either the forests of Maine or the desert of California with minimal food or clothing, face literal torcher including things like being sprayed with a firehouse while naked during the winter and having your fingers broken, and being beaten on a daily basis. We all have different experiences in the military, and we all take it from different aspects. My aspect is a direct reaction to my experiences, something your average paper pusher or maintenance guy doesn't experience.[/QUOTE] Marine Corps. Drill Instructor Creed: [I]"These recruits are entrusted to my care. I will train them to the best of my ability. I will develop them into smartly disciplined, physically fit, basically trained Marines, thoroughly indoctrinated in love of the Corps and country. I will demand of them and demonstrate by my own example, the highest standards of personal conduct, morality, and professional skill." [/I] As a Marine myself, I understand that there is a method to the madness of recruit training. That madness is to instill discipline and the values of the Corps. What these drill instructors did [I]needlessly[/I] endangered the life/well-being of one of their recruits and violates the principles of the Marine Corps. It served no purpose in a training environment and violates the Drill Instructor's Creed. I agree that some people make it through recruit training when they should not have (there were more than a few in my training platoon), that in no way justifies these kind of "training tactics" (or the stories everyone hears of recruits getting bleach poured on them or whatever else); no matter how much someone wants to believe and boast they're a tougher Marine because their drill instructors were more abusive than someone else's.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;52886171]Don't American troops "volunteer" for a paycheck that essentially serves as "wellfare with glory"? If you'd been drafted like your grandparents and parents, you'd have my sympathy. But as far as I see it, you signed up to kill brown people and have some dis-passionate DI clean up the mess that your parents made on you. All while living on "not wellfare". So I really can't sympathise with this "fuck all the new kids" view-point you got going on there. People don't go in tumblers, they go into bullets to serve the rich guy. You know that, the DI knows that and the recruit knew that. It's why putting him in with the laundry was not only fucking stupid, but petty as fuck. Someone called it out as a frat club and I'm inclined to agree. If you really HAVE to let the DI run rampant and blatantly mistreat someone, let them mistreat the redneck PVT Pyle of the group, who's already only there to kill and fuck shit up. They're the unreliable ones. THEY pose the real danger to you in a war zone. Putting people in with the laundry only serves to alienate them from the group and if that doesn't make it harder to trust them, I don't know what does. So why are you in favour of increasing distrust and animosity within a unit? That's really a weird world-view.[/QUOTE] You know, you can be entitled to your opinion about the military but you still sound like a fucking idiot when you make baseless, sweeping generalizations for what reasons people decided to join and discredit everyone who served honorably. Sounds to me you’re a little too high up on your horse to realize that.

[QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;52887587]Marine Corps. Drill Instructor Creed: [I]"These recruits are entrusted to my care. I will train them to the best of my ability. I will develop them into smartly disciplined, physically fit, basically trained Marines, thoroughly indoctrinated in love of the Corps and country. I will demand of them and demonstrate by my own example, the highest standards of personal conduct, morality, and professional skill." [/I] As a Marine myself, I understand that there is a method to the madness of recruit training. That madness is to instill discipline and the values of the Corps. What these drill instructors did [I]needlessly[/I] endangered the life/well-being of one of their recruits and violates the principles of the Marine Corps. It served no purpose in a training environment and violates the Drill Instructor's Creed. I agree that some people make it through recruit training when they should not have (there were more than a few in my training platoon), that in no way justifies these kind of "training tactics" (or the stories everyone hears of recruits getting bleach poured on them or whatever else); no matter how much someone wants to believe and boast they're a tougher Marine because their drill instructors were more abusive than someone else's.[/QUOTE] Everyone here apparently believes I'm for throwing kids in dryers and choking them until they pass out. That is not what I'm advocating nor do I support that. In the thread linked on the front page I detailed what I'm referring to in regards to hazing. If anyone bothered to read all the posts following the one linked people would understand that. Everything posted in this thread so far has been based on my assumption that people actually read the thread that was linked on the front page, rather than just the hen pecked post itself, and applied the context of that threads OP in relation to my opinion on the matter. That's what I get for assuming.

I like how the organization meant to create upstanding Americans encourages and enables racism and general cruelity, sadism, and violence. Land of the suicidal and Home of the sociopathic.

[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;52887620]You know, you can be entitled to your opinion about the military but you still sound like a fucking idiot when you make baseless, sweeping generalizations for what reasons people decided to join and discredit everyone who served honorably. Sounds to me you’re a little too high up on your horse to realize that.[/QUOTE] America hasn't seen honorable conflict since WW2. The rest of it has just been about foreign control, influence and resources. Veterans have always been shat upon by the government and gotten lip-service on every conceivable front. I have a lot of sympathy and respect for veterans of conflicts between then and the gulf war. The rest should have known better. They had the internet and modern media to inform themselves on the backroom dealings of corporate america and politicians. It's all about money and there's nothing less honorable than violence in the name of greed.

WW2 was about foreign control, influence and resources. Most wars are about such things. Still, wasn't it common knowledge that the US marines were a sort of cult? Honestly, I imagine most groups are somewhere closer to professional in the line between military and crazy, but that's the way the US operates. US marines, while formidable, aren't as good as some foreign counterparts. The US normally gets more deaths per-head in a conflict than some of it's allies, so maybe there's something wrong there.

[QUOTE=The Jack;52888885]WW2 was about foreign control, influence and resources. Most wars are about such things. Still, wasn't it common knowledge that the US marines were a sort of cult? Honestly, I imagine most groups are somewhere closer to professional in the line between military and crazy, but that's the way the US operates. US marines, while formidable, aren't as good as some foreign counterparts. The US normally gets more deaths per-head in a conflict than some of it's allies, so maybe there's something wrong there.[/QUOTE] I'm not gonna generalize but from my perspective US soldiers have less individualism. Granted, I could be wrong but IDK it just feels like US soldiers are just drilled to follow orders at the cost of losing their ability to act on their own.

[QUOTE=Viper123_SWE;52888988]I'm not gonna generalize but from my perspective US soldiers have less individualism. Granted, I could be wrong but IDK it just [B]feels like US soldiers are just drilled to follow orders at the cost of losing their ability to act on their own.[/B][/QUOTE] Welcome to the basis of the military. You follow orders from superiors and do not ask questions.

[QUOTE=Quark:;52889251]Welcome to the basis of the military. You follow orders from superiors and do not ask questions.[/QUOTE] The risk with the training US Marines are put through as opposed to the British Army for example, is if you neutralise the command structure they cannot operate, as opposed to in the British Army where you are not only taught to follow the chain of command but also act according to your own judgement at times.

[QUOTE=Redcoat893;52889305][b]The risk with the training US Marines are put through as opposed to the British Army for example, is if you neutralise the command structure they cannot operate[/b], as opposed to in the British Army where you are not only taught to follow the chain of command but also act according to your own judgement at times.[/QUOTE] What? Marines don't just shut down because they don't have someone above them. If a Staff Sergeant goes down, the Sergeant takes charge, if he goes down the Corporal, etc. That's the purpose of rank structure and small unit leadership. [QUOTE=Quark:;52889251]Welcome to the basis of the military. You follow orders from superiors and do not ask questions.[/QUOTE] Unless it's an unlawful order... [QUOTE=Fapplejack;52887722]I like how the organization meant to create upstanding Americans encourages and enables racism and general cruelity, sadism, and violence. Land of the suicidal and Home of the sociopathic.[/QUOTE] Except it isn't like that. At all. The problem is the inescapable human element where people can't put aside their petty prejudices coming from ignorant backgrounds. Kind of why the Drill Instructors in this situation are being reprimanded as they are and why we have equal opportunity representatives, chaplains, uniform victim advocates and other services to ensure that people are not taken advantage of and treated poorly. The fact of the matter is that the culture of Marines (or military in general, but I speak from my personal Marine Corps. experiences) is only something that can be really understood from within. It has its strengths and weaknesses; values and traditions, but this idea that some of you seem to have that it indoctrinates people into mindless hive-minded drones that sacrifice all individuality and cannot function without command guidance is not only false, but an ignorant generalization.

[QUOTE=Redcoat893;52889305]...as opposed to in the British Army where you are not only taught to follow the chain of command but also act according to your own judgement at times.[/QUOTE] Uh, welcome to he world of modern military doctrine? Was this taken out your ass or from Call of Duty? Marine Corps specifically, small unit leadership is the most emphasized element in leading other Marines. It’s the NCO’s and below that win battles, not some staff and O’s in a tent behind a map. There’s a reason they say Marine “Sergeants are the backbone of the Corps”. The rank structure is specifically doctrinated that just about any Marine in a squad should be able to take charge of a situation at any given circumstance. That’s why there’s Lance Corporals, Corporals and Sergeants that lead squads and even platoons. That’s called initiative. My experience specifically, they hammered initiative into our heads so we weren’t autonomous machines more capable of saying ‘yes sir’ than actually being a leader.

[QUOTE=Quark:;52889251]Welcome to the basis of the military. You follow orders from superiors and do not ask questions.[/QUOTE] "The American military forces are lemmings and proud!" Yeah. I got that impression. Only real exception i see, is when one shithead decides to go kill some locals for fun. This is how you train brainless killers, not soldiers. I guess that's a philosophical difference between USA/RUssia and the rest of the world. People aren't tools, they're people. People in the army are trained as soldiers, not killing machines toggled on and off with a "Yes sir/ No sir". This is literally one of the most significant contributing factors in why Veterans "break". Independent thought and action is an important part of being a valid asset in conflict and a fully rounded human being. A trait that absolutely every modern recruits demonstrate beautifully that they lack the moment they sign up to exchange blood for gold and literally get none of the spoils. [editline]15th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Jim_Riley;52889539]That’s called initiative. My experience specifically, they hammered initiative into our heads so we weren’t autonomous machines more capable of saying ‘yes sir’ than actually being a leader.[/QUOTE] This is how you get a working, competent force. This is also how you get competent in any professional field and life in general. Being trained to listen, believe and act blindly breaks people. Their world-view gets fucked and before you know it, they execute a highway patrol with a shotgun to the face for just being pulled over.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;52890675]"The American military forces are lemmings and proud!" Yeah. I got that impression. Only real exception i see, is when one shithead decides to go kill some locals for fun. This is how you train brainless killers, not soldiers. I guess that's a philosophical difference between USA/RUssia and the rest of the world. People aren't tools, they're people. People in the army are trained as soldiers, not killing machines toggled on and off with a "Yes sir/ No sir". This is literally one of the most significant contributing factors in why Veterans "break". Independent thought and action is an important part of being a valid asset in conflict and a fully rounded human being. A trait that absolutely every modern recruits demonstrate beautifully that they lack the moment they sign up to exchange blood for gold and literally get none of the spoils. [editline]15th November 2017[/editline] This is how you get a working, competent force. This is also how you get competent in any professional field and life in general. Being trained to listen, believe and act blindly breaks people. Their world-view gets fucked and before you know it, they execute a highway patrol with a shotgun to the face for just being pulled over.[/QUOTE] Simply put: you're speaking out of your uninformed asshole.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;52890675]"The American military forces are lemmings and proud!" Yeah. I got that impression. Only real exception i see, is when one shithead decides to go kill some locals for fun. This is how you train brainless killers, not soldiers. I guess that's a philosophical difference between USA/RUssia and the rest of the world. People aren't tools, they're people. People in the army are trained as soldiers, not killing machines toggled on and off with a "Yes sir/ No sir". This is literally one of the most significant contributing factors in why Veterans "break". Independent thought and action is an important part of being a valid asset in conflict and a fully rounded human being. A trait that absolutely every modern recruits demonstrate beautifully that they lack the moment they sign up to exchange blood for gold and literally get none of the spoils. .[/QUOTE] You talk about human beings but you literally blanket every military member as some sort of blood thirsty, mindless killing machine, completely oblivious to the fact that every member in this day and age volunteered for their own reasons with their own expectations. Some people needed it, others just wanted to experience it, some people actually wanted be a part of it because it’s important to them. How are they any less of a decent human being? How many actually served completely honorably and actually moved on with their lives? A majority of them did because the majority are perfectly fine. Honestly, why should I give two shits about what you have to say about the military when you spew verbal diarrhea and paint everyone else that isn’t you with a broad brush? It’s ignorance. I don’t expect much because it’s blantantly obvious that your anti-military rhetoric is some how acceptable enough for you to make irrational assumptions and statements. It’s so zealous that it’s actually scary. Sorry you think that way though.

[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;52889539]Uh, welcome to he world of modern military doctrine? Was this taken out your ass or from Call of Duty? Marine Corps specifically, small unit leadership is the most emphasized element in leading other Marines. It’s the NCO’s and below that win battles, not some staff and O’s in a tent behind a map. There’s a reason they say Marine “Sergeants are the backbone of the Corps”. The rank structure is specifically doctrinated that just about any Marine in a squad should be able to take charge of a situation at any given circumstance. That’s why there’s Lance Corporals, Corporals and Sergeants that lead squads and even platoons. That’s called initiative. My experience specifically, they hammered initiative into our heads so we weren’t autonomous machines more capable of saying ‘yes sir’ than actually being a leader.[/QUOTE] That's more a thing with you jarheads than the Army, from what I've seen. We're all about composite risk management and zero-defects leadership and if-private-turdforbrains-fucks-up-his-whole-chain-of-command-up-to-the-company-level-is-to-blame type punishments. Not exactly conducive to building individual initiative.