Acid attack victim testifies, via recording, at his own murder trial - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=matt000024;52869723] Yeah, I think the murder charge is kind of a dumb move. A crime like this should have the weight of a murder charge anyway, but upgrading to murder means the case will likely be harder to win (unsure if you guys have double jeopardy or not tbh) and will set a bad precedent for treatment of euthanasia in legal terms.[/QUOTE] Doctors agreed that his life sucked so much he was better off dead it's not like he jumped off a bridge.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52869908]So what you're saying is you're not a chemist, or even an amateur chemist. [/QUOTE] Do you realize what amateur means? :v:

[QUOTE=Quark:;52869696]I understand where you're coming from, as a chemist, but perhaps dangerous, highly corrosive chemicals like [I]sulphuric acid[/I] shouldn't be so easy to obtain. When you obtain chemicals like this, you should honestly be on a list of people who purchase them, as well as endure a minor background check and/or a mental health check. It's sulphuric acid, man. If you're going to use it for scientific reasons, at least be willing to make it safer for everyone involved.[/QUOTE] It's also used in "maintenance" lead-acid batteries, so people with cheap lead-acid batteries would be screwed. I can understand limiting the amount a person can buy at a time, and logging the purchases to a central database. So if a person has purchased a significant amount without having any need for it, then they get a friendly visit from the police asking them what the fuck they're doing.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52869908]So what you're saying is you're not a chemist, or even an amateur chemist. Normal people should not have access to these chemicals, there is no reason why anyone should experiment outside a lab or education facility.[/QUOTE] home chemistry is a fine hobby that many people enjoy. not everyone who is interested in chemistry has access to a lab, or even wants to go to a lab to practice their hobby.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52869901]You need to deal with the problems that are leading people to gangs, and actually put violent offenders behind bars with great offenses. [B]Also make other methods of gang warfare more accessible, because the reason they are using acid is purely thanks to the fact that other methods are unavailable.[/B][/QUOTE] we're fine without thanks 'methods of gang warfare' don't need to be more accessible if you're dealing with the problems that lead people to gangs and violence, which the numbers say we do very well comparatively.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52869763]You're allowed to take small amounts home with you from most labs as long as it's reasonable. Obviously not controlled substances such as cyanide or barbituric acid though, but there's pretty much acetone, chloroform, acids, bases and shelves full or chemicals at your disposal. As an amateur chemist, you should know this. [B]Also not murder because there was no intent to kill.[/B][/QUOTE] This is incorrect [URL]http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#murder[/URL] The intent to cause serious harm to another AKA Grevious Bodily Harm (GBH), that leads to the death of the victim. As per UK law, Is grounds for a murder charge. The defense she has here, in my limited understanding of the law, is not that she did'nt intend to kill him. It's that the victim survived the incident and 'could' have lived but instead chose to end his own life at a later date, which means that [I]technically[/I] she did not kill him. Edit: I should point out however, that she denied intending to throw acid at him, instead saying she believed it was water ... which lets just say is a flimsy defense on her part given the evidence against her.

[QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;52870053]This is incorrect [url]http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#murder[/url] The intent to cause serious harm to another AKA Grevious Bodily Harm (GBH), that leads to the death of the victim. As per UK law, Is grounds for a murder charge. The defense she has here, in my limited understanding of the law, is not that she did'nt intend to kill him. It's that the victim survived the incident and 'could' have lived but instead chose to end his own life at a later date, which means that [I]technically[/I] she did not kill him.[/QUOTE] What is the crime for driving someone to suicide? Is that murder?

damnit its people like this that are making it hard to get ahold of good acid for non-people-maiming uses. [editline]8th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Fr3ddi3;52870053]This is incorrect [url]http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#murder[/url] The intent to cause serious harm to another AKA Grevious Bodily Harm (GBH), that leads to the death of the victim. As per UK law, Is grounds for a murder charge. The defense she has here, in my limited understanding of the law, is not that she did'nt intend to kill him. It's that the victim survived the incident and 'could' have lived but instead chose to end his own life at a later date, which means that [I]technically[/I] she did not kill him.[/QUOTE] that testimony though is hard to refute her intent to kill him.

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;52870065]What is the crime for driving someone to suicide? Is that murder?[/QUOTE] This is where my knowledge of the law runs out, I can tell you what I think from a moral point of view, but not from the actual written law. To my knowledge, there is nothing in UK law with which to charge someone who's drivien someone else to suicide, a few years back there was a campaign to have such people brought up on homocide charges. But I don't know where that led.

People wanting to ban sulphuric acid don't realize how much shit uses sulphuric acid. Drain cleaner being a notable example. Its also a major industrial chemical meaning that pretty much every industrial factory is going to have a metric assload of it. Banning public use is just going to inconvenience normal people

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52869912]You understand a lot of common house hold products have those in them right? Some that have pretty high concentrations such as drain decloggers. Even then those which contain diluted amounts are easy to concentrate.[/QUOTE] I'm saying back yard "chemists" have no right to strong hazardous chemicals like concentrated sulfuric acid like in the article. House products are fine, for obvious reasons. Nobody needs highest concentrate acids though or bleach. Chemistry as a home hobby is plain retarded, because not everyone is smart enough to use their common sense and create some toxic gas that'll blow through the neighbourhood or just straight up kill themself.

[QUOTE]To break the "chain of causation" an intervening act must be such that it becomes the sole cause of the victim's death so as to relieve the defendant of liability. (Consider R v Kennedy (2007) 3 W.L.R. 612 below in Cases where death results from the unlawful supply of drugs.) [B]An act of the victim will break the chain if not within the range of response which might be anticipated from a victim in his situation[/B]: R v Roberts (1972) 56 Cr App R 95 and R v Williams & Davis 1992 CLR 198. Note: Reeves v Metropolitan Police Commissioner (HOL) 2000 1 AC 560 where it was accepted that if the police were aware that the prisoner was a known suicide risk then a special duty of care existed and that Novus actus interveniens did not apply where he then went on to commit suicide.[/QUOTE] This bit is pretty interesting even though it's not the defence put forward.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870255]I'm saying back yard "chemists" have no right to strong hazardous chemicals like concentrated sulfuric acid like in the article. House products are fine, for obvious reasons. Nobody needs highest concentrate acids though or bleach.[/QUOTE] Drain cleaner [I]is[/I] concentrated sulfuric acid dude.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52870272]Drain cleaner [I]is[/I] concentrated sulfuric acid dude.[/QUOTE] Sodium hydroxide is usually used from what I see in shops. It doesn't have such a dramatic affect on skin compared to sulfuric

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870293]Sodium hydroxide is usually used from what I see in shops. It doesn't have such a dramatic affect on skin compared to sulfuric[/QUOTE] Both are used as drain cleaner. And I can tell you from personal experience that concentrated alkali solutions are every bit as destructive as concentrated acids. Not as fast acting but they can cause very horrific burns as well.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52870314]Both are used as drain cleaner. And I can tell you from personal experience that concentrated alkali solutions are every bit as destructive as concentrated acids. Not as fast acting but they can cause very horrific burns as well.[/QUOTE] Sulfuric is worse because of how well it dehydrates organic materials. That's why it can cause permanent blindness very easily. If you've ever spilt it you'll see it almost instantly chars things it comes into contact with. Sodium hydroxide does not do this anywhere near as well but it will of course still give a nasty burn if you leave it on your skin. Yes strong acids cause burns too but they still work in different ways, sulfuric just tends to be nastier when spilt on organic materials.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870255]Chemistry as a home hobby is plain retarded, because not everyone is smart enough to use their common sense and create some toxic gas that'll blow through the neighbourhood or just straight up kill themself.[/QUOTE] By your logic people should not be doing electronics, carpentry, DIY, etc because they are all equally as dangerous as chemistry. [QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870293]Sodium hydroxide is usually used from what I see in shops. It doesn't have such a dramatic affect on skin compared to sulfuric[/QUOTE] As someone who has has both on my skin at high concentrations I'd have to disagree.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;52869901][B]Also make other methods of gang warfare more accessible[/B], because the reason they are using acid is purely thanks to the fact that other methods are unavailable.[/QUOTE] :what: ARe you out of your mind? The LAST thing we need to do is make it easier for gangbangers to murder and pillage.

[QUOTE=Chryseus;52870348]By your logic people should not be doing electronics, carpentry, DIY, etc because they are all equally as dangerous as chemistry. As someone who has has both on my skin at high concentrations I'd have to disagree.[/QUOTE] I use 98% daily and I spill it regularly, it burns the shit out of everything organic in about 5 seconds...

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870255]I'm saying back yard "chemists" have no right to strong hazardous chemicals like concentrated sulfuric acid like in the article. House products are fine, for obvious reasons. Nobody needs highest concentrate acids though or bleach. Chemistry as a home hobby is plain retarded, because not everyone is smart enough to use their common sense and create some toxic gas that'll blow through the neighbourhood or just straight up kill themself.[/QUOTE] Why must you be so condescending? One can fully understand what they're doing with specific reactions despite not working at a chemistry laboratory.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870379]I use 98% daily and I spill it regularly, it burns the shit out of everything organic in about 5 seconds...[/QUOTE] how the hell do you manage to spill it so much? shouldnt you like, treat it more seriously if it can give you severe burns?

Lock up that psycho bitch for life. She "claimed" that she "thought it was a glass of water" she threw on him as well :why:

[QUOTE=Quiet;52869856]Car batteries use pretty concentrated sulfuric acid.[/QUOTE] I somehow accidently bought a lead-sulphuric acid battery at a supermarket in France. It was absolutely mad, they gave you an empty battery and a bottle of acid with a hose to fill it, I'm pretty sure I used a self-checkout till and wasn't even ID'd.

[QUOTE=Quiet;52870396]Why must you be so condescending? One can fully understand what they're doing with specific reactions despite not working at a chemistry laboratory.[/QUOTE] A lot of safety is just procedure too, you can learn that on your own easily. Also reading up about the reagents and the reactions you're trying to perform. You don't need a degree to do this. Also I'm sure a lot of home chemists are people who have done chemistry in labs and schools before, and do it at home because either they aren't enrolled/employed in those jobs or don't attend any academic institution anymore.

If some fuckups kill themselves because they didnt know what they were doing when they played with chemicals, it should not ruin it as a hobby for everyone with common sense.

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;52869686]What alternative is there. Acid attacks are on the rise and the [I]general[/I] public have no need for dangerous highly corrosive chemicals. (not counting household bleach etc because I assume that's not what's being used in attacks) This is a logical step to take imo[/QUOTE] You can't ban acid, it's used in all sorts of shit including car batteries. [editline]8th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870293]Sodium hydroxide is usually used from what I see in shops. It doesn't have such a dramatic affect on skin compared to sulfuric[/QUOTE] Actually since it's an alkali it'll be worse since your body is acidic. [editline]8th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52870255]I'm saying back yard "chemists" have no right to strong hazardous chemicals like concentrated sulfuric acid like in the article. House products are fine, for obvious reasons. Nobody needs highest concentrate acids though or bleach. Chemistry as a home hobby is plain retarded, because not everyone is smart enough to use their common sense and create some toxic gas that'll blow through the neighbourhood or just straight up kill themself.[/QUOTE] What next? Ban kitchen knives? Ban electricity? Ban fire? you can't fucking ban everything that's dangerous.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52869763]You're allowed to take small amounts home with you from most labs as long as it's reasonable. Obviously not controlled substances such as cyanide or barbituric acid though, but there's pretty much acetone, chloroform, acids, bases and shelves full or chemicals at your disposal. As an amateur chemist, you should know this. Also not murder because there was no intent to kill.[/QUOTE] she can deny intent but that doesn't mean the jury has to believe her, it's permissible to infer the intent to kill from the action depending on what it is / how likely it would be to result in death. any statements she makes about her intent are to be evaluated against the other evidence on the record for the jury's finding. given that there is the utterance of "if i can't have you no one else will," she's got a high barrier to raise a defense that she [I]didn't[/I] intend to cause or otherwise foresee death as a consequence of her actions. aka whether or not there was an intent to kill is not yet decided and will not be decided until the close of trial. i wouldn't take her word for it given the circumstances.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52870730]Actually since it's an alkali it'll be worse since your body is acidic.[/QUOTE]No. Human body tissue is pH neutral, the reason why bases are "worse*" than acids is because they deprotonate tissues, fats, and proteins. *Both cause amazingly horrific damage within a short time span when concentrated, exposure to strong or concentrated acids and bases results in similar scales of injury.

[QUOTE=ExplodingGuy;52870831]No. Human body tissue is pH neutral, the reason why bases are "worse*" than acids is because they deprotonate tissues, fats, and proteins. *Both cause amazingly horrific damage within a short time span when concentrated, exposure to strong or concentrated acids and bases results in similar scales of injury.[/QUOTE] Can confirm, back in 2010 in AP Chem we worked with a lot of acids, bases and even liquid nitrogen. Base burns always hurt worse than acid burns in my opinion, and particularly strong ones like a highly concentrated solution of sodium hydroxide will basically turn your skin into soap when it touches you. We were always very careful of course but accidents do happen, so burns occurred sometimes, and both are awful, I have no sympathy for a person that would deliberately inflict this on someone. Also, I can never forget the smell of hydrochloric acid, it has this very specific scent that even 7 years later I still remember. Smells weird.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52869763]You're allowed to take small amounts home with you from most labs as long as it's reasonable. Obviously not controlled substances such as cyanide or barbituric acid though, but there's pretty much acetone, chloroform, acids, bases and shelves full or chemicals at your disposal. As an amateur chemist, you should know this. Also not murder because there was no intent to kill.[/QUOTE] You have to think about it like if she injured him and he died at the hospital later. Which she did, injure him, and he died at the hospital, later. What if they didn't manage to save him after the attack, and he died? They didn't manage to save him after the attack, and he did die.