Crypto Mining Hinders Space Science as GPU Prices Skyrocket and Supply Dwindles - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Amber902;53148202]Slap cryptocurrencies with a 30% transaction tax to make mining unprofitable. Best way to kill cryptocurrency[/QUOTE] How would you enforce this

i saying it all the time, we need currency running on&for science and ban those which aren't ;)

[QUOTE=LegoGuy;53148017]I'm just pissing in a sea of piss, but this is why I fully support ASICs, if people are going to funnel massive processing power in a blockchain, do it in a way that doesn't make it worse for everyone else. I can't wait until bitmain releases their rumored etherium miner and the market gets flooded with used GPUs.[/QUOTE] Again, people will be somewhat less prone to buying ASICs because the resell value will almost always be lower than a GPU, especially since the poor dude buying the GPU to begin with is still likely going to buy those used GPUs, and probably end up paying what should have been market price for it to begin with (if not close to it), and on top of all of that, it's been used, possibly over-clocked, volt-modded, or likewise "enhanced" in such a manner that shortens the expected life-span of the card. Though take this opinion with a grain of salt, as I don't recall being shown any of these "specifically-used-for-mining" GPU blow-outs that people keep talking about when the price of today's popular internet funbux takes a dive. [QUOTE=reedbo;53148123]Nothing is stopping you from folding at home at your own cost. Blockchain has brought new players into the game who aren't just doing this for the research alone, now they have a way to offset costs and potentially profit. Basically what you're telling me is now that there is a way to make money from distributed computing people aren't going to do it for free anymore?[/QUOTE] Why bother setting up to get compensated for your compute power (which is supposed to be the reason behind paying people for mining the block chain in the first place, isn't it?) if the compensation is dick? Once again they've taken something that could've been used by your average shmuck to get a couple of extra bucks, now all squandered in mining farms after driving the cost of GPUs for gaming and research up over 200% their original cost.

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;53148613]Again, people will be somewhat less prone to buying ASICs because the resell value will almost always be lower than a GPU, especially since the poor dude buying the GPU to begin with is still likely going to buy those used GPUs, and probably end up paying what should have been market price for it to begin with (if not close to it), and on top of all of that, it's been used, possibly over-clocked, volt-modded, or likewise "enhanced" in such a manner that shortens the expected life-span of the card. Though take this opinion with a grain of salt, as I don't recall being shown any of these "specifically-used-for-mining" GPU blow-outs that people keep talking about when the price of today's popular internet funbux takes a dive.[/QUOTE] Not really, you can make lots of money re-selling ASICs. When the next hype comes around (and it will) people are willing to pay more than twice the price than if you bought it from the manufactures directly. This is because the manufactures require you to pre-order, sometimes over 2 months in advance. When the next hype train rolls around, wanna get on the train "now". and since you have it "now", people will pay a premium for it. Also, while the GPUs may have been overclocked, for maximum profit, you generally want to do it at the lowest voltage possible for that sweet sweet power-consumption to revenue ratio, which means you don't really have to worry about GPUs being "overused" in that sense. You're probably right about the price, though. I'll remain optimistic.

[QUOTE=SunsetTable;53147958]F@H was designed for folding at your home, via your desktop. Meaning; from your personal computer. I just finished checking the math and, for the month of March, I will be taking part in cure coin just to prove a point because right now I am losing 5 bucks [B]a day[/B] because server renters have inflated the PPD meaning that my somewhat beefy computer is making 0.75(and by may of 2018, .37) coins a day.[/QUOTE] Do note that your first 10 or so work units will only net you base points. I've been doing this for about the last 30 days and my ppd has been a pretty consistent average of 3.3. I also bought a kill-a-watt to track kWh cost. I just ran some numbers and unless you're using a costant 1000 watts of power 24/7 at a cost of $0.21 per kWh without getting anything in return (essentially getting 0 curecoin for your work), it's not going to even reach $5. I went through Seasonic's wattage calculator to calculate a system that would cost, in electricity, $5 a day at $0.18 per kWh (1.5x above the U.S. average of $0.12 per kWh). I got a system with an 8700k overclocked to 4.8GHz@1.4V and 3 1080TIs overclocked to 1600MHz core and 1300MHz memory which is just a tad higher than what I'm clocked at. These numbers are far beyond "moderately beefy". Unless you're in Hawaii, I don't see how a moderately beefy computer could cost you $5 [i]in electricity alone[/i].

The amount of people hating on crypto just for affecting the price of their precious gpus is ridiculous. It is a brand new emerging technology which will no doubt eventually come to affect our everyday lives in one way or another. Just because it currently isn't much more than 'monopoly money', doesn't mean it will never have a use case. The video card companies need to meet the demand, they are more than capable of doing so but obviously the easier option is to let supply dwindle to charge more money. To be fair though, mining is barely profitable these days so I dont see why its so huge.

[QUOTE=orcywoo6;53148828] The video card companies need to meet the demand, they are more than capable of doing so but obviously the easier option is to let supply dwindle to charge more money. To be fair though, mining is barely profitable these days so I dont see why its so huge.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.gamersnexus.net/industry/3211-what-do-manufacturers-think-of-mining-and-gpu-prices[/url] [quote]As for mining, most AIB partners feel the same as they did six months ago: Miners are not long-term customers, provide no long-term value to the brand, and do not contribute to brand sales of other gamer-targeted products in the ecosystem. This would include things like gaming monitors, e.g. a 144Hz display, or gaming peripherals, mice, and high-end motherboards. Miners don’t need any of those, and so the ratio of cards-to-accessories or cards-to-core components is tipped. Considering that some of these other items are significantly higher margin than just a GPU, which can be as low as 4% margins, in some cases, manufacturers may end up losing more revenue potential (by losing gamer sales) than they’re making from GPU inventory clearing. When asked about increasing card production, we were given a few primary answers: -Betting on cryptocurrency is a big bet, because the mining market has not proven stable, and has proven unpredictable. To order on current demand doesn’t mean those cards show up tomorrow – they show up in a few months, and if cryptomining dies down in that time, that’s a big bag to be left holding. The manufacturers are forecasting months ahead (quarterly, actually), not weeks ahead. -NVIDIA and AMD could likely produce more GPUs, but board partners need to actually place an order for them. We’ve seen some uninformed content creators online accuse nVidia and/or AMD of undersupplying the market. Well, nVidia and AMD need a customer to sell those GPUs to – that’d be the board partners. If they’re not ordering more, nVidia and AMD aren’t going to make more. Simple as that. -New supply is showing up weekly, but it’s selling out fast. The best bet is to show up at a local retailer and ask when the next shipment comes in, then go there that day. -There is concern about over-production, especially if mining falls enough that the second-hand market becomes flooded, outstripping the ability of first-parties to make money.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Zero-Point;53148613]Again, people will be somewhat less prone to buying ASICs because the resell value will almost always be lower than a GPU, especially since the poor dude buying the GPU to begin with is still likely going to buy those used GPUs, and probably end up paying what should have been market price for it to begin with (if not close to it), and on top of all of that, it's been used, possibly over-clocked, volt-modded, or likewise "enhanced" in such a manner that shortens the expected life-span of the card. Though take this opinion with a grain of salt, as I don't recall being shown any of these "specifically-used-for-mining" GPU blow-outs that people keep talking about when the price of today's popular internet funbux takes a dive. Why bother setting up to get compensated for your compute power (which is supposed to be the reason behind paying people for mining the block chain in the first place, isn't it?) if the compensation is dick? Once again they've taken something that could've been used by your average shmuck to get a couple of extra bucks, now all squandered in mining farms after driving the cost of GPUs for gaming and research up over 200% their original cost.[/QUOTE] Mining hasn't driven the cost of cards up, it's the lack of supply and the fact that retailers are gouging customers because demand is high. Besides, how is someone buying a video card for mining any different than say someone who buys one for scientific research or 3D rendering? If anything you guys should be complaining about the lack of supply driving the price up due to demand. If you're doing scientific research through a blockchain and it's not paying enough to make money then why are you even doing scientific compute work in the first place? Oh yeah, for the scientific contributions. If someone really wants to contribute to science through their hardware then they aren't worried about getting compensated in the first place. It's been my whole point the entire time. Also, if you read my previous posts you would understand that I agree that mining for blockchain consensus is extremely wasteful, I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing about SunsetTable's rhetoric about blockchain killing folding at home, which it hasn't, if anything more people are doing it because they can offset costs by getting paid through tokens. The fact that most chains achieve consensus through proof of work doesn't detract from the good that these tools can provide. I agree that they need to move towards more efficient methods of consensus and they eventually will but for now it's still growing tech that will evolve where it needs to, power efficiency included.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149285]Mining hasn't driven the cost of cards up, it's the lack of supply and the fact that retailers are gouging customers because demand is high. Besides, how is someone buying a video card for mining any different than say someone who buys one for scientific research or 3D rendering? If anything you guys should be complaining about the lack of supply driving the price up due to demand. If you're doing scientific research through a blockchain and it's not paying enough to make money then why are you even doing scientific compute work in the first place? Oh yeah, for the scientific contributions. If someone really wants to contribute to science through their hardware then they aren't worried about getting compensated in the first place. It's been my whole point the entire time. Also, if you read my previous posts you would understand that I agree that mining for blockchain consensus is extremely wasteful, I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing about SunsetTable's rhetoric about blockchain killing folding at home, which it hasn't, if anything more people are doing it because they can offset costs by getting paid through tokens. The fact that most chains achieve consensus through proof of work doesn't detract from the good that these tools can provide. I agree that they need to move towards more efficient methods of consensus and they eventually will but for now it's still growing tech that will evolve where it needs to, power efficiency included.[/QUOTE] You don't buy a gaming GPU for commercial or scientific ventures typically IIRC.

[QUOTE=Ogopogo;53148896][URL]https://www.gamersnexus.net/industry/3211-what-do-manufacturers-think-of-mining-and-gpu-prices[/URL][/QUOTE] Last I checked the researchers that also use the cards don't contribute to brand loyalty and peripheral purchases either. What's your argument? GPUs are multipurpose, stop promoting the idea that these chips should only be used for pushing frames in a video game. Personally, I'd rather them be used for scientific computing than video games but I'm not the kind of person to get upset when someone decides to smash the newest iphone or set up a mining rig with video cards. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149292]You don't buy a gaming GPU for commercial or scientific ventures typically IIRC.[/QUOTE] You do realize that nvidia GPUs are all CUDA based right? A 1080ti has the same compute performance as the top of the line P5000 quadro card at half the price. Miners aren't buying Quadro cards because hashing performance, in most cases, does not improve with a dedicated compute card. The main selling point of a Quadro card is the ability to split processing across an array of cards, which you cannot do with geforce cards. These researchers SHOULD be buying quadro cards, if they're buying gaming cards instead then that's on them to figure out.

[QUOTE=phygon;53148231]I'm personally glad that governments tend to not arbitrarily ban things/tax them out of existence without an extremely compelling reason to do so. And why would they? Crypto is unstable, it's a shitty investment unless you get extremely lucky, but it's not like it's somehow causing a large amount of harm.[/QUOTE] If you really wanted to stretch it, you could say that the tax is kind of a sin tax due to the energy (aka oil) that gets dumped into crypto. [QUOTE=a-k-t-w;53148235]How would you enforce this[/QUOTE] The same way you do it with normal transactions over the internet. You can't catch everybody, but with big players and many companies you can. Not that I think it's a great idea.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149299]Last I checked the researchers that also use the cards don't contribute to brand loyalty and peripheral purchases either. What's your argument? GPUs are multipurpose, stop promoting the idea that these chips should only be used for pushing frames in a video game. Personally, I'd rather them be used for scientific computing than video games but I'm not the kind of person to get upset when someone decides to smash the newest iphone or set up a mining rig with video cards. You do realize that nvidia GPUs are all CUDA based right? A 1080ti has the same compute performance as the top of the line P5000 quadro card at half the price. Miners aren't buying Quadro cards because hashing performance, in most cases, does not improve with a dedicated compute card. The main selling point of a Quadro card is the ability to split processing across an array of cards, which you cannot do with geforce cards.[/QUOTE] None of this means people don't have a reason to be upset, or annoyed. They do.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149336]None of this means people don't have a reason to be upset, or annoyed. They do.[/QUOTE] People are upset for the wrong reasons. This is simply a supply and demand issue not an issue with miners. Manufacturers need to find a way to sell cards designed for mining or increase their production of gaming cards, it's as simple as that. God forbid a company sells products they are producing.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149342]People are upset for the wrong reasons. This is simply a supply and demand issue not an issue with miners. Manufacturers need to find a way to sell cards designed for mining or increase their production of gaming cards, it's as simple as that.[/QUOTE] The thread already went over both of those points

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;53149344]The thread already went over both of those points[/QUOTE] Yep, either the manufacturers make more cards or you all just suck it up until proof of work consensus is phased out. No reason to get all up in arms about it with a bunch of knee-jerk reactions. I feel like most people don't realize that I'm a gamer as well, I'm still stuck using my R9 290 because I can't afford a better newer gpu. Am I pissed that miners are buying cards and retailers are taking advantage of the demand? Not really.

[QUOTE=orcywoo6;53148828]The video card companies need to meet the demand, they are more than capable of doing so but obviously the easier option is to let supply dwindle to charge more money. To be fair though, mining is barely profitable these days so I dont see why its so huge.[/QUOTE] Video card manufacturers aren't seeing an extra cent of the exorbitant prices. These are price hikes instituted by the retailers, the MSRP has not changed at all.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149342]People are upset for the wrong reasons. This is simply a supply and demand issue not an issue with miners. Manufacturers need to find a way to sell cards designed for mining or increase their production of gaming cards, it's as simple as that. God forbid a company sells products they are producing.[/QUOTE] Not really The supply is being eaten up by a niche of the market that people don't really like I get that there's a lot of people like yourself who are big proponents of the technology, and I'm not particularly against it, but it's not such a great innovation we, one of the primary drivers of the GPU market, should just be totally silent like you ask.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149352]Yep, either the manufacturers make more cards or you all just suck it up until proof of work consensus is phased out. No reason to get all up in arms about it with a bunch of knee-jerk reactions. I feel like most people don't realize that I'm a gamer as well, I'm still stuck using my R9 290 because I can't afford a better newer gpu. Am I pissed that miners are buying cards and retailers are taking advantage of the demand? Not really.[/QUOTE] What protocol7 said, as well, manufacturing chains are not so simple as just turning the dial the 11 and then back to 5 when you need it. Overproduction based on trends that didn't hold can be a disaster that, in the worst case, can send your company into a death spiral.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149374]Not really The supply is being eaten up by a niche of the market that people don't really like I get that there's a lot of people like yourself who are big proponents of the technology, and I'm not particularly against it, but it's not such a great innovation we, one of the primary drivers of the GPU market, should just be totally silent like you ask.[/QUOTE] All I'm reading here is that you don't feel blockchain is worth GPU prices being driven up currently, aside from a blanket statement that "people don't really like" the niche of the market that's driving up demand. Besides the inherent subjectiveness, I don't see how that adds anything to the argument. If you really think this isn't a supply and demand issue, could you explain how?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149374]Not really The supply is being eaten up by a niche of the market that people don't really like I get that there's a lot of people like yourself who are big proponents of the technology, and I'm not particularly against it, but it's not such a great innovation we, one of the primary drivers of the GPU market, should just be totally silent like you ask.[/QUOTE] I'm simply saying that people are overreacting to a problem that really isn't a problem. Once manufacturers decide how to proceed with this niche market then we'll start to see some changes, once blockchain has moved away from proof of work consensus we'll start to see some changes. Again, I've been impacted by the lack of supply and high prices but I've taken a step back to realize that this is just a passing moment, manufacturers will figure out how to capitalize on the niche market and bring the supply of gaming cards back to you and I. [QUOTE=thelurker1234;53149375]What protocol7 said, as well, manufacturing chains are not so simple as just turning the dial the 11 and then back to 5 when you need it. Overproduction based on trends that didn't hold can be a disaster that death spirals a company.[/QUOTE] I understand that, you can bitch and moan on the internet about "muh video cards" or you can consider the fact that the market is changing and the manufacturers haven't caught up yet. Calling crypto a joke and saying that it should be banned is totally in the wrong direction and all for what? So people can waste electricity on video games instead of blockchain consensus? I don't see how one side of the situation is better or worse than the other. In fact I believe this problem will open doors to better supply chains and a more rounded hardware market.

[QUOTE=PacificV2;53149399]All I'm reading here is that you don't feel blockchain is worth GPU prices being driven up currently, aside from a blanket statement that "people don't really like" the niche of the market that's driving up demand. Beside the inherent subjectiveness, I don't see how that adds anything to the argument. If you really think this isn't a supply and demand issue, could you explain how?[/QUOTE] It's being eaten up by a niche of the market that never really drove the market until recently. Like I'm not livid, I'm not pissed off, I'm not trying to say "Shut this shit down". I'm trying to explain to someone who thinks there's no reason to be annoyed why people are annoyed. Does shit being really, really, really inflated in price not deserve at least a passing remark from the community that generally speaking, are the primary audience for said product? Why do miners and miner advocates feel that there's no reason for someone to be mad at them over it? I genuinely don't get the advocacy over blockchain finances at the moment either and I have read many of the arguments that are made to state why blockchains are so great, and it just seems like a speculative market that even the advocates aren't fully understanding, but that's not new. No one on wallstreet REALLY understood how "Derivatives" worked, yet in our stupidity because money is all that matters, we crashed the economy chasing them. Blockchains are not derivatives, but they're a thing we clearly don't fully understand and an over interest in it doesn't seem much different than what we were playing at in 2008.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149401]I understand that, you can bitch and moan on the internet about "muh video cards" or you can consider the fact that the market is changing and the manufacturers haven't caught up yet. Calling crypto a joke and saying that it should be banned is totally in the wrong direction and all for what? So people can waste electricity on video games instead of blockchain consensus? I don't see how one side of the situation is better or worse than the other. In fact I believe this problem will open doors to better supply chains and a more rounded hardware market.[/QUOTE] Here's the price trend for GTX 1080's for the past 18 months: [img]https://i.imgur.com/YpUPYcK.png[/img] If I read my facts right, the MSRP for the 1080 was $599.99 on release day, and $499.99 as of March 2017. For the past 18 months, the average price of a GTX 1080 has hovered mostly around $700, and hasn't even come close to the new MSRP of $499.99. It's been a long standing problem for a while now. Of course people are going to bitch about "muh video cards." It's ridiculous, and the graph shows how much worse it's gotten only recently - even the low-end of the 1080 price variation is well above the $500 MSRP.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149401]So people can waste electricity on video games instead of blockchain consensus?[/QUOTE] Well, to be fair, I did have to explain to a small business I'm working for why their new rendering machines are going to cost a few hundred more than my last estimate.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;53149415]Here's the price trend for GTX 1080's for the past 18 months: [img]https://i.imgur.com/YpUPYcK.png[/img] If I read my facts right, the MSRP for the 1080 was $599.99 on release day, and $499.99 as of March 2017. For the past 18 months, the average price of a GTX 1080 has hovered mostly around $700, and hasn't even come close to the new MSRP of $499.99. It's been a long standing problem for a while now. Of course people are going to bitch about "muh video cards." It's ridiculous, and the graph shows how much worse it's gotten only recently - even the low-end of the 1080 price variation is well above the $500 MSRP.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149412]It's being eaten up by a niche of the market that never really drove the market until recently. Like I'm not livid, I'm not pissed off, I'm not trying to say "Shut this shit down". I'm trying to explain to someone who thinks there's no reason to be annoyed why people are annoyed. Does shit being really, really, really inflated in price not deserve at least a passing remark from the community that generally speaking, are the primary audience for said product? Why do miners and miner advocates feel that there's no reason for someone to be mad at them over it? I genuinely don't get the advocacy over blockchain finances at the moment either and I have read many of the arguments that are made to state why blockchains are so great, and it just seems like a speculative market that even the advocates aren't fully understanding, but that's not new. No one on wallstreet REALLY understood how "Derivatives" worked, yet in our stupidity because money is all that matters, we crashed the economy chasing them. Blockchains are not derivatives, but they're a thing we clearly don't fully understand and an over interest in it doesn't seem much different than what we were playing at in 2008.[/QUOTE] Get mad at the retailers who think it's appropriate to charge 1500$ for a video card that should retail at a third of that. Get mad at the people who buy video cards at an inflated prices thus justifying the retailers price hike. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to be mad or have an opinion, I'm trying to say that our problem isn't caused directly by mining, it's caused by lack of supply and extreme demand. Thanks to the free market our hardware retailers are driving the price up so they can profit on this wave of interest.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149412]It's being eaten up by a niche of the market that never really drove the market until recently. Like I'm not livid, I'm not pissed off, I'm not trying to say "Shut this shit down". I'm trying to explain to someone who thinks there's no reason to be annoyed why people are annoyed. Does shit being really, really, really inflated in price not deserve at least a passing remark from the community that generally speaking, are the primary audience for said product? Why do miners and miner advocates feel that there's no reason for someone to be mad at them over it? I genuinely don't get the advocacy over blockchain finances at the moment either and I have read many of the arguments that are made to state why blockchains are so great, and it just seems like a speculative market that even the advocates aren't fully understanding, but that's not new. No one on wallstreet REALLY understood how "Derivatives" worked, yet in our stupidity because money is all that matters, we crashed the economy chasing them. Blockchains are not derivatives, but they're a thing we clearly don't fully understand and an over interest in it doesn't seem much different than what we were playing at in 2008.[/QUOTE] I think we're way past a "passing remark". [QUOTE=GHOST!!!!;53145949]For fuck sake, miners are arseholes.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=zeromancer;53145957]Sorry dickheads, imaginary monopoly money is more important than the future of human kind.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hammer7;53145980]About time to make crypto mining illegal. It kills GPU market for some imaginary buck.[/QUOTE] The problem with this topic is that apparently it's dominated by people who don't understand how either blockchain or the market work, or even how things are valued - which is what I take offence against. Look, I'm pissed as well. I wanted to upgrade my PC and I can't since I can't afford new GPUs. However, I'm not gonna blame the miners, people who just wanted to purchase a product, or blame a technology, which is inherently neutral and will be actually be used for good. I understand this situation for what it is - an anomaly - and understand this will be fixed in the long run, either by the manufacturers that choose to invest in the miner customers, or by the miners which will stop buying eventually when new rigs are developed. I just wished people did the same, instead of spazzing out like fucking children.

[QUOTE=Tudd;53146753]Not really sure if this is an argument to anything; But the difficulty curve largely determines which graphics cards are still profitable or not. I guess I would have to see how you define typical paper currency having "actual use" to see how you are defining differences between it and Crypto. Because the actual use of Bitcoin is just like any other currency. So I just want to see if were being consistent here.[/QUOTE] Cool, only this doesn't really play a role as difficulty increases with increasing mining power.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149432]Get mad at the retailers who think it's appropriate to charge 1500$ for a video card that should retail at a third of that. Get mad at the people who buy video cards at an inflated prices thus justifying the retailers price hike. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to be mad or have an opinion, I'm trying to say that our problem isn't caused directly by mining, it's caused by lack of supply and extreme demand. Thanks to the free market our hardware retailers are driving the price up so they can profit on this wave of interest.[/QUOTE] You're right. The cause of the price hikes is the low supply and high demand of GPUs. High demand which is due to cryptocurrency miners buying GPUs en masse from retailers, causing low supply. It's not that hard to figure out.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;53149449]You're right. The cause of the price hikes is the low supply and high demand of GPUs. High demand which is due to cryptocurrency miners buying GPUs en masse from retailers, causing low supply. It's not that hard to figure out.[/QUOTE] Yep, it's all the miners fault. Glad you cleared that up for me.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149432]trying to say that our problem isn't caused directly by mining, it's caused by lack of supply and extreme demand. [/QUOTE] it's not caused directly by mining, it's caused by the extreme demand caused by mining? [editline]p[/editline] damn, you guys are fast

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149464]Yep, it's all the miners fault. Glad you cleared that up for me.[/QUOTE] I mean, you're the one doing mental gymnastics trying to absolve miners of all responsibility in the equation, then blaming the GPU manufacturers for not spending like $2 billion to add additional production capacity when there is no guarantee that they will recoup the sunk cost, as mining is currently nothing more than a trend.