Crypto Mining Hinders Space Science as GPU Prices Skyrocket and Supply Dwindles - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Protocol7;53149472]I mean, you're the one doing mental gymnastics trying to absolve miners of all responsibility in the equation, then blaming the GPU manufacturers for not spending like $2 billion to add additional production capacity when there is no guarantee that they will recoup the sunk cost, as mining is currently nothing more than a trend.[/QUOTE] Nah, I'm simply blaming manufacturers and retailers for failing to meet demands. It happens sometimes but it's not the end of the world. But it also isn't something you can just fix with more GPUs. I think we're all on the same page here. [QUOTE=1STrandomman;53149465]it's not caused directly by mining, it's caused by the extreme demand caused by mining?[/QUOTE] Because everyone who wants a video card is using it for mining right? Say I make 100 video cards to sell to my target audience of gamers. Suddenly there are more than just gamers buying my cards, what do I do? Make more right? Well, it's not that easy, mining could be a niche market and we could end up with overstock if we just pump out more and the fad dies out. So what's the best course of action here? I'd suggest letting it play out and see how the demand stacks up over time and then calculate the manufacturing requirements for future production. This problem isn't as simple as "Miners are buying all of the gpus" My biggest gripe is how everyone acts like miners aren't or shouldn't be a part of the video card market. They clearly are a part and have every right to buy video cards as you do.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149474] My biggest gripe is how everyone acts like miners aren't or shouldn't be a part of the video card market. They clearly are a part and have every right to buy video cards as you do.[/QUOTE] Sure they do. That's not going to stop me from calling them idiots for spending $8000 on 10 GTX 1080s to mine a highly volatile cryptocurrency that has absolutely zero guarantee that they will ever mine enough to pay back their initial investment, let alone create a significant enough profit. A problem compounded even more by increasing GPU costs, making GPU mining farms an even larger initial investment with again zero guarantee of having a worthwhile ROI. Mining is, in my opinion, a really stupid thing to do right now. But everyone thinks they can buy a dozen graphics cards and generate money out of thin air, which is also fucking stupid.

[QUOTE=PacificV2;53149441]I think we're way past a "passing remark". The problem with this topic is that apparently it's dominated by people who don't understand how either blockchain, the market, and how things are valued work - which is what I take offense against. Look, I'm pissed as well. I wanted to upgrade my PC and I can't since I can't afford new GPUs. However, I'm not gonna blame the miners, people who just wanted to purchase a product, or blame a technology, which is inherently neutral and will be actually be used for good. I understand this situation for what it is - an anomaly - and understand this will be fixed in the long run, either by the manufacturers that choose to invest in the miner customers, or by the miners which will stop buying eventually when new rigs are developed. I just wished people did the same, instead of spazzing out like fucking children.[/QUOTE] I don't think I was spazzing out. I don't think there will be "Miner solutions" for a variety of reasons I've heard blockchain enthusiasts tout, so I don't know how fast this will be resolved. Like I said, I'm not calling for it to be stopped, but some alternative will have to be developed and I don't see that being a fast solution. I don't really see the value in blockchains, I get the idea of an open ledger is great, but like has been pointed out in probably every thread about this ever, it's not going to replace currency. I'm not saying don't be interested in it or don't value it at all, but personally, I'm struggling to see the value it brings the average person on a daily basis.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;53149488]Sure they do. That's not going to stop me from calling them idiots for spending $8000 on 10 GTX 1080s to mine a highly volatile cryptocurrency that has absolutely zero guarantee that they will ever mine enough to pay back their initial investment, let alone create a significant enough profit. A problem compounded even more by increasing GPU costs, making GPU mining farms an even larger initial investment with again zero guarantee of having a worthwhile ROI. Mining is, in my opinion, a really stupid thing to do right now. But everyone thinks they can buy a dozen graphics cards and generate money out of thin air, which is also fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] You're entitled to your opinion but the fact is that people wouldn't be buying cards if they weren't expecting to make a profit or break even. Sure there are tons of idiots out there who have no idea what they're doing and they're just spending a ton of money on cards without doing any research, they will get burned and probably never do it again. Give the market some time to figure out how it's going to solve this supply and demand issue. I agree that mining is stupid, it's extremely wasteful and should be phased out. But we're not there yet, have some patience and eventually things will normalize themselves. Whether it be that mining dies out or manufacturers find a way to market mining only cards or they just produce more. It'll get there eventually and things will even out again.

if miners want to buy such high numbers of cards as part of a commercial venture, they should be going direct to manufacturers and bankrolling the increased production. Instead, they're going around and buying up all the GPU stock and then refusing to accept responsibility for distorting the market. If they can't afford to run their operations like the businesses they are, then they need to stop.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149491]I don't think I was spazzing out. I don't think there will be "Miner solutions" for a variety of reasons I've heard blockchain enthusiasts tout, so I don't know how fast this will be resolved. Like I said, I'm not calling for it to be stopped, but some alternative will have to be developed and I don't see that being a fast solution. I don't really see the value in blockchains, I get the idea of an open ledger is great, but like has been pointed out in probably every thread about this ever, it's not going to replace currency. I'm not saying don't be interested in it or don't value it at all, but personally, I'm struggling to see the value it brings the average person on a daily basis.[/QUOTE] The point of blockchain is [B]NOT[/B] currency. Currency is a means to an end, an economic incentive to transaction verification (aka mining, and I'm sure this very point was already said in this thread). Everyone, please get this into your heads. Crypto-currencies are mostly a necessary side-effect of what the blockchain is - PUBLIC VERIFICATION AND TRUST. They're the mechanism that ensures the whole system works as a whole, and keeps threat actors out. You can't have one without the other. I think the ones who invest in cryptocurrencies are crazy for betting on such a wild market, but you'd have to be blind not to think there's a revolution coming out of decentralisation on such wild a scope. [editline]21st February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53149491]I don't think I was spazzing out.[/QUOTE] Man, you do you, and you're not the worst offender, but [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53146115]I just can't wait for this stupid trend to die.[/QUOTE] is not cool. It's transparent though, and really shows your bias, but it's not cool.

[QUOTE=1STrandomman;53149521]if miners want to buy such high numbers of cards as part of a commercial venture, they should be going direct to manufacturers and bankrolling the increased production. Instead, they're going around and buying up all the GPU stock and then refusing to accept responsibility for distorting the market. If they can't afford to run their operations like the businesses they are, then they need to stop.[/QUOTE] There's a really simple solution that can be applied now to alleviate shortages. Retailers should only be selling a max of 2-4 cards per customer but instead they'd rather make bank and sell tons of them at a higher price to miners. I can guarantee that any legitimate mining operation would contact the manufacturer directly as that's the best way to get a good cost while securing the hardware you need. Unfortunately a lot of idiots jump into mining as if it's a get rich quick scheme and end up ruining the fun for the rest of us.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149544]There's a really simple solution that can be applied now to alleviate shortages. Retailers should only be selling a max of 2-4 cards per customer but instead they'd rather make bank and sell tons of them at a higher price to miners. I can guarantee that any legitimate mining operation would contact the manufacturer directly as that's the best way to get a good cost while securing the hardware you need. Unfortunately a lot of idiots jump into mining as if it's a get rich quick scheme and end up ruining the fun for the rest of us.[/QUOTE] Retailers already limit the amount of cards one person can buy. Miner assholes just get a bunch of friends together or pay people to buy cards for them.

[QUOTE=geel9;53149578]Retailers already limit the amount of cards one person can buy. Miner assholes just get a bunch of friends together or pay people to buy cards for them.[/QUOTE] There's gonna be shitty people no matter where you go. Unfortunate reality but really all we can do is wait for the manufacturers and retailers to find a solution.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149587]There's gonna be shitty people no matter where you go. Unfortunate reality but really all we can do is wait for the manufacturers and retailers to find a solution.[/QUOTE] Yeah except you've spent this whole time saying "the miners aren't assholes, it's a supply and demand problem!"

[QUOTE=geel9;53149592]Yeah except you've spent this whole time saying "the miners aren't assholes, it's a supply and demand problem!"[/QUOTE] You think every person who mines crypto goes out and buys 40 video cards with a group of friends?

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149607]You think every person who mines crypto goes out and buys 40 video cards with a group of friends?[/QUOTE] No, but it's the group that does that ruins it for everyone. I think we're on the same page, you're just being a little pedantic.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;53149626]No, but it's the group that does that ruins it for everyone.[/QUOTE] Yep, not gonna deny that. Really all I can say is that it's super shitty and I wish it wouldn't happen, but crypto is here to stay, expect to run into more growing pains in the future.

[QUOTE=PacificV2;53149536]The point of blockchain is [B]NOT[/B] currency. Currency is a means to an end, an economic incentive to transaction verification (aka mining, and I'm sure this very point was already said in this thread). Everyone, please get this into your heads. Crypto-currencies are mostly a necessary side-effect of what the blockchain is - PUBLIC VERIFICATION AND TRUST. They're the mechanism that ensures the whole system works as a whole, and keeps threat actors out. You can't have one without the other. I think the ones who invest in cryptocurrencies are crazy for betting on such a wild market, but you'd have to be blind not to think there's a revolution coming out of decentralisation on such wild a scope. [editline]21st February 2018[/editline] Man, you do you, and you're not the worst offender, but is not cool. It's transparent though, and really shows your bias, but it's not cool.[/QUOTE] I'm not trying to be cool, but if that's "spazzing out" then you're also "Spazzing out" because none of my language there was particularly hyperbolic or extreme. The next few decades will have tremendous changes in almost all fields, "revolutions" will be common, I don't know if just being revolutionary makes it better. There are educated, thoughtful critiques of blockchains. Why shouldn't it be questioned and doubted?

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149432]Get mad at the retailers who think it's appropriate to charge 1500$ for a video card that should retail at a third of that. [B]Get mad at the people who buy video cards at an inflated prices thus justifying the retailers price hike.[/B] I'm not saying you aren't allowed to be mad or have an opinion, I'm trying to say that our problem isn't caused directly by mining, it's caused by lack of supply and extreme demand. Thanks to the free market our hardware retailers are driving the price up so they can profit on this wave of interest.[/QUOTE] So the miners? Gotcha, chief. Why the miners? Because they're the ones with the capital to spend to even start to make venturing into mining profitable to begin with, and they [I]really[/I] want to make that money, so of course they're going to spend it. It's already been explained to you time, and time, and time again, dude. They are NOT likely to make more hardware just to satisfy the mining market, because [I][B]the mining market is an unstable one[/B][/I] and they rely on a stable consumer-base to accurately adjust their manufacturing needs within their budget constraints.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149474]Nah, I'm simply blaming manufacturers and retailers for failing to meet demands. It happens sometimes but it's not the end of the world. But it also isn't something you can just fix with more GPUs. I think we're all on the same page here. Because everyone who wants a video card is using it for mining right? Say I make 100 video cards to sell to my target audience of gamers. Suddenly there are more than just gamers buying my cards, what do I do? Make more right? Well, it's not that easy, mining could be a niche market and we could end up with overstock if we just pump out more and the fad dies out. So what's the best course of action here? I'd suggest letting it play out and see how the demand stacks up over time and then calculate the manufacturing requirements for future production. This problem isn't as simple as "Miners are buying all of the gpus" My biggest gripe is how everyone acts like miners aren't or shouldn't be a part of the video card market. They clearly are a part and have every right to buy video cards as you do.[/QUOTE] Yeah man if scaling up production to meet demand is so easy how come you aren't making some GTX 1080TIs in your spare time for a quick buck?

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;53150614]Yeah man if scaling up production to meet demand is so easy how come you aren't making some GTX 1080TIs in your spare time for a quick buck?[/QUOTE] Likely because, unlike Nvidia, reedbo does not have a production line set up to churn out gpus.

The whole 'this will replace fiat money' is a tired meme by this point. It's instead rather likely that blockchain technology will have to be implemented somehow by banks, financial institutes and whoever else because of the speed, scalability, transparency etc it brings. Whether you like it or not this tech isn't just a fad. There is a reason huge tech companies like IBM are backing crypto projects and it isn't some fast cash grab. There are some projects that enable near instant, super low fee international transactions. And then on top of that all the blockchain benefits. The banks aren't gonna collapse because of crypto, but they are almost certainly gonna adapt with it in some way. How they do it remains to be seen. This mess we see right now is just an inevitable effect of a huge immature market like this. It won't be like this forever. Like, if you wanna invoke the dotcom bubble as a 'haha retards investing in a bubble' then you also need to remember that once the bubble burst the valuable projects were left standing.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53149474]Nah, I'm simply blaming manufacturers and retailers for failing to meet demands. It happens sometimes but it's not the end of the world. But it also isn't something you can just fix with more GPUs. I think we're all on the same page here. Because everyone who wants a video card is using it for mining right? Say I make 100 video cards to sell to my target audience of gamers. Suddenly there are more than just gamers buying my cards, what do I do? Make more right? Well, it's not that easy, mining could be a niche market and we could end up with overstock if we just pump out more and the fad dies out. So what's the best course of action here? I'd suggest letting it play out and see how the demand stacks up over time and then calculate the manufacturing requirements for future production. This problem isn't as simple as "Miners are buying all of the gpus" My biggest gripe is how everyone acts like miners aren't or shouldn't be a part of the video card market. They clearly are a part and have every right to buy video cards as you do.[/QUOTE] It's the right decision for manufacturers not to increase demand by significant margins just to meet the demand for GPU's introduced by miners. Miners are a terrible market for GPU manufacturers. There is a very long lead time, and no guarantee that. Until cryptocurrency shows some side of long term stability, it's not going to happen. Furthermore, a major prolonged crash in cryptocurrency would eat away at future GPU sales, as miners recoup costs by reselling them, making it harder to clear out any stock they had. Returning to something you said earlier. [QUOTE=reedbo;53149299]Last I checked the researchers that also use the cards don't contribute to brand loyalty and peripheral purchases either. What's your argument? GPUs are multipurpose, stop promoting the idea that these chips should only be used for pushing frames in a video game. Personally, I'd rather them be used for scientific computing than video games but I'm not the kind of person to get upset when someone decides to smash the newest iphone or set up a mining rig with video cards.[/QUOTE] While research does not include gaming, ultimately, research is a rather stable market. There's no widely fluctuating demands, and significantly large projects result might have enough lead time for an order to be placed. Research is a healthy market, mining is not (and very large scale research will use quadros for new acquisitions). Mining is entirely the reason right now why the price has gone up, and is going to continue to go up (or stay up). This will not change until there is some sort of stability. With research, you can predict that. Gamers, you can predict that. Mining on the other hand, is unpredictable, has near astronomical demand, and exceptionally little loyalty. Short of artificial limitations, which have been having very mixed results, there's little that can be done. And retailers, while they are the ones benefiting, are now starting to favor gaming. More than a few places are now offering discounts when purchasing components to build a system (Motherboard, CPU, RAM, PSU, GPU). It is still an imperfect fix, however.

[QUOTE=helifreak;53150753]Likely because, unlike Nvidia, reedbo does not have a production line set up to churn out gpus.[/QUOTE] But just like Nvidia he'd have to spend large sums of money to set up more/any production lines. So if it's so easy to do why isn't he doing it is still a valid argument. Maybe because spending large sums of money to meet a demands that's currently inflated due to a niche portion of the market that's based entirely on speculation of an incredibly volatile pseudo-investment medium is a fucking terrible idea? Because maybe bitcoin crashes tomorrow and Nvidia is now making 2x the GPUs for a demand that's less than 1/4 what it was, wow sure was a great idea to scale up production then right?

[QUOTE=Crumpet;53150981]The whole 'this will replace fiat money' is a tired meme by this point. It's instead rather likely that blockchain technology will have to be implemented somehow by banks, financial institutes and whoever else because of the speed, scalability, transparency etc it brings. Whether you like it or not this tech isn't just a fad. There is a reason huge tech companies like IBM are backing crypto projects and it isn't some fast cash grab. There are some projects that enable near instant, super low fee international transactions. And then on top of that all the blockchain benefits. The banks aren't gonna collapse because of crypto, but they are almost certainly gonna adapt with it in some way. How they do it remains to be seen. This mess we see right now is just an inevitable effect of a huge immature market like this. It won't be like this forever. Like, if you wanna invoke the dotcom bubble as a 'haha retards investing in a bubble' then you also need to remember that once the bubble burst the valuable projects were left standing.[/QUOTE] Banks are already investing in Blockchain as we speak. They're not behind the curve on this, they aren't going to be ousted, they aren't going anywhere. They're using blockchain for trust and verification because that's what it's good at. The "blockchain bubble" is going to refer mainly, as far as I'm aware, to the "currencies" that exist in the blockchain sphere right now. Bitcoin isn't going to be around forever, but blockchain technology behind banks will. Needless to say I spent the last few days just binging on articles, podcasts, and the like on the subject.

I don't mind people who want to invest in mining. Personally I think that someone who isn't that knowledged in investments goes out and buys something expensive because of the idea of "easy money" without considering electrical costs and everything is a stupid idea, but if they go out and buy a GPU or two, it's nothing too serious. I'm mostly bothered by the people who go out and clean out stores by themselves and when people who are trying to use the GPUs for their intended purpose express their irritation they reply with "not my problem :^)".

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53151799]Banks are already investing in Blockchain as we speak. They're not behind the curve on this, they aren't going to be ousted, they aren't going anywhere. They're using blockchain for trust and verification because that's what it's good at. The "blockchain bubble" is going to refer mainly, as far as I'm aware, to the "currencies" that exist in the blockchain sphere right now. Bitcoin isn't going to be around forever, but blockchain technology behind banks will. Needless to say I spent the last few days just binging on articles, podcasts, and the like on the subject.[/QUOTE] Just curious why you think the chains that perform as currencies are going to die? There is potential for blockchain to be used as a currency, there just isn't a project with the adoption and tech yet imo, some good prospects though. One thing I'm hopeful for is a crypto as a currency that can proliferate a value among impoverished nations that don't have the infrastructure/economy for a reliable currency. There's a very large potential in blockchain's ability to 'even the playing field' for those in countries without a strong economy.

[QUOTE=reedbo;53152467]Just curious why you think the chains that perform as a currencies are going to die? There is potential for blockchain to be used as a currency, there just isn't a project with the adoption and tech yet imo, some good prospects though. One thing I'm hopeful for is a crypto as a currency that can proliferate a value among impoverished nations that don't have the infrastructure/economy for a reliable currency. There's a very large potential in blockchain's ability to 'even the playing field' for those in countries without a strong economy.[/QUOTE] Because they don't need it and you're unaware of what they already have that works pretty damn well for them. Blockchains aren't going to make good currencies, I haven't seen a strong argument for it. I don't really feel like it's even worth arguing against because they cannot reliably function on any method we've figured out yet to replace currency. As said elsewhere in this thread, at best it's value storage. Blockchain technology is already being picked up by the large banks, but they're not after currency. The value for that is mostly an ideological one from what I've seen, and not actually practical. I'm not sure how exactly you see a blockchain currency as being a method for a country to raise itself up. Many African nations have, or are, adopting a technology many of us in the west are starting to get now. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa[/url] [url]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/want-to-text-money-kenya-has-been-doing-it-for-years/[/url] They're already circumenventing the banks and banking systems in many ways, so what do they need an energy intensive resource to simulate a currency for? There are better uses for the technology than currency. Why are you so hung up on that?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53152549]Because they don't need it and you're unaware of what they already have that works pretty damn well for them. Blockchains aren't going to make good currencies, I haven't seen a strong argument for it. I don't really feel like it's even worth arguing against because they cannot reliably function on any method we've figured out yet to replace currency. As said elsewhere in this thread, at best it's value storage. Blockchain technology is already being picked up by the large banks, but they're not after currency. The value for that is mostly an ideological one from what I've seen, and not actually practical. I'm not sure how exactly you see a blockchain currency as being a method for a country to raise itself up. Many African nations have, or are, adopting a technology many of us in the west are starting to get now. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Pesa[/url] [url]https://www.cbsnews.com/news/want-to-text-money-kenya-has-been-doing-it-for-years/[/url] They're already circumenventing the banks and banking systems in many ways, so what do they need an energy intensive resource to simulate a currency for? There are better uses for the technology than currency. Why are you so hung up on that?[/QUOTE] I'm not 'hung' up on anything, I just wanted to hear your opinion on the subject. I'm not really arguing about anything at this point..

[QUOTE=duckmaster;53146909]Except that bitcoin and CSGO skins are essentially nothing backed by nothing, a Car is a piece of machinery that can get me to my destination faster and has value based off of that and a number of other variables. A cryptocoin is nothing backed by nothing, and only has value based off of what people are willing to pay for it.[/QUOTE] $ is backed by what exactly?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;53145955]I cannot stand this crypto bullshit. Does it actually do anything for the economy? Science? Culture? Politics? [I]Anything?[/I] All I see is people buying up things that could be used by others, and generally just sucking down power and not putting anything back into the world around them.[/QUOTE] imagine if they made it do something useful like calculating/disproving zeroes for the riemann-zeta function or something, instead of bullshit whatever calculations that will do nothing

[QUOTE=Nebukadnezzer;53152871]imagine if they made it do something useful like calculating/disproving zeroes for the riemann-zeta function or something, instead of bullshit whatever calculations that will do nothing[/QUOTE] Still quite useless for 99.999% population

[QUOTE=Fourier;53152835]$ is backed by what exactly?[/QUOTE] The Fed.

I would call 'miners' as entropy generators, as that's what they're doing. Consuming energy and resources for speeding up heat death of the universe. They're not going to be viable currencies as transaction costs are astounding, and the currencies in general have no ability to balance and steer economic system they're supposed to operate. +Limited lifetime for currencies.