'Mass shooting' reported at small town church in Texas - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Potus;52860691][img_thumb]https://i.redd.it/2qe4ludc1awz.png[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] There's a person that I raid with who said something like "We don't need gun control, we need liberal control" In the discord when this topic brushed past the general conversational milieu the other day. Just like, out of the blue. Barely related to what we'd been talking about specifically at all, with everyone just kinda' like "Huh, wow, that's really shit that that happened." At first I was confused- Had the motivations of the gunman come to light? What's made him say that, y'know? I guess it turns out that he's probably just a crazy t_d poster and drank a [I]lot[/I] of that kool-aid. Fun.

[QUOTE=froztshock;52866223]There's a person that I raid with who said something like "We don't need gun control, we need liberal control" In the discord when this topic brushed past the general conversational milieu the other day. Just like, out of the blue. Barely related to what we'd been talking about specifically at all, with everyone just kinda' like "Huh, wow, that's really shit that that happened." At first I was confused- Had the motivations of the gunman come to light? What's made him say that, y'know? I guess it turns out that he's probably just a crazy t_d poster and drank a [I]lot[/I] of that kool-aid. Fun.[/QUOTE] I knew that the T_D was insane, but not this level of insane.

if you've never been on t_d, it's funny at first but becomes legitimately horrifying when you realize that a lot of people actually think that way

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52863943]They tell us in every thread, ban guns, be like Europe or Australia, etc.[/QUOTE] We don't even have a gun ban, technically speaking. We have a ban on carrying weapons (includes a ton of things besides guns) and storage requirements on the more dangerous ones. And mostly actual enforcement, of course.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52866000]You see how you had to leap there from explaining the motivation of single homicide to the willingness to kill several people with little to no explanation? Yah that is the gap we don't know why he was willing to do mass murder. Maybe he was just crazy and just hated the world (pretty likely), but either way pretty early to conclusively say anything.[/QUOTE] No I do believe that the [I]overall[/I] motive is indeed his ex. Were he still happily together with his ex, I doubt this would have had happened.

[QUOTE=Techno Grub;52869065]No I do believe that the [I]overall[/I] motive is indeed his ex. Were he still happily together with his ex, I doubt this would have had happened.[/QUOTE] He seems to have quite a detailed and troubled past, pinning it overall to one thing may be a pretty bad idea.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52869142]He seems to have quite a detailed and troubled past, pinning it overall to one thing may be a pretty bad idea.[/QUOTE] Cause and motive can be separate thing. The motive was to kill his mother-in-law, but all that other issues he had could have caused him to take it further.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52869162]Cause and motive can be separate thing. The motive was to kill his mother-in-law, but all that other issues he had could have caused him to take it further.[/QUOTE] Based on this witness account, there seems to be more to it than trying to kill his mother-in-law: [url]https://www.ksat.com/news/sutherland-springs/singing-and-praise-then-gunfire-couple-shares-surviving-texas-church-shooting[/url] He was yelling things like: "Everybody die [expletive]" (The article has it quoted like that) He also made a point to methodically shoot anyone making noise, including babies at point blank range.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52869142]He seems to have quite a detailed and troubled past, pinning it overall to one thing may be a pretty bad idea.[/QUOTE] Yeah I don't want to pin it on just one thing, his ex is probably just one of the major/significant events in his life that lead him to this point, and what made him do it. But I don't really feel like trying to empathize with or understand this guy's motives any further.

Again there is a difference between single homicide and mass murdering. It will most likely be something more than this Ex to get him to such a dark place. The guy has a history that looks like a build up to it.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52869385]Again there is a difference between single homicide and mass murdering. It will most likely be something more than this Ex to get him to such a dark place. The guy has a history that looks like a build up to it.[/QUOTE] Okay, how about instead of saying "motive", we say catalyst. Does it make sense what we're saying now?

I know I'm going to stand on a lot of feet with this statement, but I seriously feel like shaking my head whenever a tragedy like this happens. I can't imagine living in a place where the likelihood of being gunned down in the goddamn street is so high. It baffles me that the U.S continues to allow such easy access to firearms when this shit [I]keeps happening.[/I] Is "the right to bear 'em" really worth this level of carnage? I get that the constitution is important and all that. But it was written and established in a time where most guns took half a minute to fire one round, and automatic weapons were still just a glimmer in a gunsmith's eye. Is it really such a crazy idea to update the laws and policies around guns now that the tech has gotten to such a level? And for as great as it is that this maniac was stopped by a civilian with a rifle, the cold hard facts are that had the purpetrator not had such easy access to guns in the first place, none of this would have likely happened. Call me a freedom-hating foreigner if you like, but at least I can walk down the main street of my city without fearing the sound of gunshots.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874034]I know I'm going to stand on a lot of feet with this statement, but I seriously feel like shaking my head whenever a tragedy like this happens. I can't imagine living in a place where the likelihood of being gunned down in the goddamn street is so high. It baffles me that the U.S continues to allow such easy access to firearms when this shit [I]keeps happening.[/I] Is "the right to bear 'em" really worth this level of carnage? I get that the constitution is important and all that. But it was written and established in a time where most guns took half a minute to fire one round, and automatic weapons were still just a glimmer in a gunsmith's eye. Is it really such a crazy idea to update the laws and policies around guns now that the tech has gotten to such a level? And for as great as it is that this maniac was stopped by a civilian with a rifle, the cold hard facts are that had the purpetrator not had such easy access to guns in the first place, none of this would have likely happened. Call me a freedom-hating foreigner if you like, but at least I can walk down the main street of my city without fearing the sound of gunshots.[/QUOTE] Most Americans can walk down their main street without worrying about the sounds of gunshots. We're a country of over 330 million people spread over an area comparable to the entirety of Europe, to which I'm sure has it's own fair share of shit holes and sketchy parts of town.

[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52874054]Most Americans can walk down their main street without worrying about the sounds of gunshots. We're a country of over 330 million people spread over an area comparable to the entirety of Europe, to which I'm sure has it's own fair share of shit holes and sketchy parts of town.[/QUOTE] The difference between a sketchy part of town over here vs over in the 'States is that [I]here[/I] the worst you're likely to encounter is a guy with a knife. And while that's scary, sure enough, you can't shoot up a building with a knife. Not even one of those fancy Russian ones with the projectile blades. The last "mass shooting" in Australia was in 2014 - A lone gunman holed himself up in a Sydney cafe and took 10 hostages. The tragedy cost 3 people their lives and injured 4 others. A horrible event, no doubt about it. But it seems miniscule compared to the nightmare-level numbers claimed by spree shooters in the U.S this year alone. And that doesn't even factor in the gun-related homocides, suicides, manslaughter, assaults and accidents that happen with terrifying regularity over there. The refusal the acknowledge that America has a gun problem is not going to help anything. This doesn't happen in any other "western" country, as far as I know. Just the 'States. And yet every time something like this happens, we get people crawling out of the woodwork to defend the current gun ownership policies. It's like you guys are bent on your own destruction.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874034]I know I'm going to stand on a lot of feet with this statement, but I seriously feel like shaking my head whenever a tragedy like this happens. I can't imagine living in a place where the likelihood of being gunned down in the goddamn street is so high. It baffles me that the U.S continues to allow such easy access to firearms when this shit [I]keeps happening.[/I] Is "the right to bear 'em" really worth this level of carnage? I get that the constitution is important and all that. But it was written and established in a time where most guns took half a minute to fire one round, and automatic weapons were still just a glimmer in a gunsmith's eye. Is it really such a crazy idea to update the laws and policies around guns now that the tech has gotten to such a level? And for as great as it is that this maniac was stopped by a civilian with a rifle, the cold hard facts are that had the purpetrator not had such easy access to guns in the first place, none of this would have likely happened. Call me a freedom-hating foreigner if you like, but at least I can walk down the main street of my city without fearing the sound of gunshots.[/QUOTE] Hi, i live in the US, did i miss the cowboy memo because i dont see guys firing rounds off at high noon. [editline]9th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Ona;52874091]A horrible event, no doubt about it. But it seems miniscule compared to the nightmare-level numbers claimed by spree shooters in the U.S this year alone. And that doesn't even factor in the gun-related homocides, suicides, manslaughter, assaults and accidents that happen with terrifying regularity over there.[/QUOTE] Pretty sure most gun crime is gang related, i think. Thats mostly in the big inner cities iirc. [QUOTE=Ona;52874091]The refusal the acknowledge that America has a gun problem is not going to help anything. This doesn't happen in any other "western" country, as far as I know. Just the 'States. And yet every time something like this happens, we get people crawling out of the woodwork to defend the current gun ownership policies.[/QUOTE] It seems to have more to do with the inherent impracticality of trying to do whatever it even is you're trying to imply the country should do, and that the effort it would take to even attempt it would be better spent combating the cause of crimes in which firearms are used.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;52874190]Pretty sure most gun crime is gang related, i think. Thats mostly in the big inner cities iirc.[/quote] And that makes it okay, does it? The fact that "most" gun owners are sensible, responsible people doesn't do anything to mitigate the "some" that go out and kill dozens of people within the timeframe of one day. Yes, most of the gun crime is probably gang related. But that doesn't make it [I]better.[/I] it just means you have a lot of hot-headed, likely disenfranchised and young people getting shot and killed by [I]other[/I] hot-headed, likely disenfranchised young people. Gangs and gang voilence isn't unique to the U.S - we have plenty of gangs over here, too. But most of their conflicts don't carry much, if any, risk of collateral damage and the majority of violent encounters don't end with multiple corpses on both sides. And in the case of spree shooters like this event in Texas, or the Las Vegas shootings earlier in the year, all it takes is one person to deal absurd amounts of damage and death due to the simple addition of a firearm. Take either of the individuals from these events and take away their guns - do you honestly think they would have been able to cause nearly as much havoc and bloodshed if they'd been armed with, say, a knife? Hell, even vehicle attacks don't result in as much death or injury as guns do. And yet people keep doing everything they can to put the blame anywhere [I]but[/I] their precious boomsticks. [QUOTE=AaronM202;52874190]It seems to have more to do with the inherent impracticality of trying to do whatever it even is you're trying to imply the country should do, and that the effort it would take to even attempt it would be better spent combating the cause of crimes in which firearms are used.[/QUOTE] Again, I ask, would any of the recent massacres have been as devestating without the presence of firearms? These are clearly unhinged people, and I absolutely agree that increasing access to mental health care is inportant. But the fact remains that these people were only able to achieve the level of destruction they caused thanks to their access to guns. We can argue about this til the sun burns out and dies, but the numbers don't lie, and trying to pin the blame elsewhere won't help. Is it "practical" to enforce the same level of gun control in America as other countries? No, it isn't. But only because the United States culture is so deeply attached to their right to bare arms that they'll cling to it like ticks on a horse, even in the face of mass bloodshed.

Comparing gun owners to parasites, good way to win people over to your side

[QUOTE=Ona;52874091]The difference between a sketchy part of town over here vs over in the 'States is that [I]here[/I] the worst you're likely to encounter is a guy with a knife. And while that's scary, sure enough, you can't shoot up a building with a knife. Not even one of those fancy Russian ones with the projectile blades. The last "mass shooting" in Australia was in 2014 - A lone gunman holed himself up in a Sydney cafe and took 10 hostages. The tragedy cost 3 people their lives and injured 4 others. A horrible event, no doubt about it. But it seems miniscule compared to the nightmare-level numbers claimed by spree shooters in the U.S this year alone. And that doesn't even factor in the gun-related homocides, suicides, manslaughter, assaults and accidents that happen with terrifying regularity over there. The refusal the acknowledge that America has a gun problem is not going to help anything. This doesn't happen in any other "western" country, as far as I know. Just the 'States. And yet every time something like this happens, we get people crawling out of the woodwork to defend the current gun ownership policies. It's like you guys are bent on your own destruction.[/QUOTE] I'm keen to remind everybody that thinking of America as a singular country is not a good way of doing things. Texas alone as a greater population than the entirety of Australia, and considering the spread of ethnic and and regional differences the US may as well be 6 separate countries (if not more) Another thing that most people cannot understand is the general American sense of independence. You know that whole cocky American stereotype? We all live it in one way or another. And for some of us we accept the risk of having such freedoms, especially those of us who got to fight and die in some other country because our people wanted us to.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874335] Again, I ask, would any of the recent massacres have been as devestating without the presence of firearms? These are clearly unhinged people, and I absolutely agree that increasing access to mental health care is inportant. But the fact remains that these people were only able to achieve the level of destruction they caused thanks to their access to guns.[/QUOTE] This guy legally wasnt allowed to get one my dude, he got it because of incompetence failing to inform the seller. And, i mean, yeah, if there werent any guns then they couldnt be used the way they were, but that might as well be a useless hypothetical because there are, and there are a lot of them, you need to do stuff based around that fact, not in spite of it. [QUOTE=Ona;52874335]We can argue about this til the sun burns out and dies, but the numbers don't lie, and trying to pin the blame elsewhere won't help.[/QUOTE] Guns are an object used by people, you cant pin the blame on them, they're an effective means of destruction but they themselves are not the root cause of destruction, that doesnt make sense. Blame should be on a person, or on something which causes people to act a certain way. [QUOTE=Ona;52874335]Is it "practical" to enforce the same level of gun control in America as other countries? No, it isn't. But only because the United States culture is so deeply attached to their right to bare arms that they'll cling to it like ticks on a horse, even in the face of mass bloodshed.[/QUOTE] You're not going to. It doesnt matter how much you say it should happen, it just wont, thats the reality of the situation. It would take decades to even begin to try, and in that time frame the effort would likely be better spent on combating the reasons people do those things, again. Its polarizing, the two dipshit political parties are both kind of stupid about it, so why not focus on another, more effective avenue of figuring it out? I feel, personally, it should be thought about from a place of knowledge of the subject matter, practicality, and cause-and-effect. Aside from that i dont think i have many strong feelings about it, its just that it makes more sense in my mind to figure out what causes X so you can do Y to fix it in a tangible manner. [editline]9th November 2017[/editline] Oh, also: [QUOTE=Ona;52874335][B]And that makes it okay, does it?[/B] The fact that "most" gun owners are sensible, responsible people doesn't do anything to mitigate the "some" that go out and kill dozens of people within the timeframe of one day. Yes, most of the gun crime is probably gang related. But that doesn't make it [I]better.[/I] it just means you have a lot of hot-headed, likely disenfranchised and young people getting shot and killed by [I]other[/I] hot-headed, likely disenfranchised young people. Gangs and gang voilence isn't unique to the U.S - we have plenty of gangs over here, too. But most of their conflicts don't carry much, if any, risk of collateral damage and the majority of violent encounters don't end with multiple corpses on both sides. And in the case of spree shooters like this event in Texas, or the Las Vegas shootings earlier in the year, all it takes is one person to deal absurd amounts of damage and death due to the simple addition of a firearm. Take either of the individuals from these events and take away their guns - do you honestly think they would have been able to cause nearly as much havoc and bloodshed if they'd been armed with, say, a knife? Hell, even vehicle attacks don't result in as much death or injury as guns do. And yet people keep doing everything they can to put the blame anywhere [I]but[/I] [B]their precious boomsticks[/B]. Again, I ask, would any of the recent massacres have been as devestating without the presence of firearms? These are clearly unhinged people, and I absolutely agree that increasing access to mental health care is inportant. But the fact remains that these people were only able to achieve the level of destruction they caused thanks to their access to guns. We can argue about this til the sun burns out and dies, but the numbers don't lie, and trying to pin the blame elsewhere won't help. [B] Is it "practical" to enforce the same level of gun control in America as other countries? No, it isn't. But only because the United States culture is so deeply attached to their right to bare arms that they'll cling to it like ticks on a horse, even in the face of mass bloodshed.[/B][/QUOTE] Is it necessary to act like this? Do you honestly think anyone wants to listen to you talk to them like this? Why do people keep thinking its okay to be snide and rude to gun owners in these gun threads, as if that'll somehow be productive.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52874349]Comparing gun owners to parasites, good way to win people over to your side[/QUOTE] I long ago accepted that there is no way to criticise American gun policy on this forum (or really anywhere with a large base of US users) without several people reflexively lashing out at you. Trying to "win people over" on this subject is pointless. All I'm doing is pointing out just how stupid this whole problem is. At the end of the day, Occam's razor wins out: Easy access to guns + A few deranged individuals = Wide-scale death by firearms. And therefore, we can use basic math to deduce that by reducing access to firearms, we can reduce the cases where one nutjob goes on a rampage and breaks one of the world's worst records in a single insane cascade. This isn't a complex problem to understand, but no matter what people say, it keeps happening, and happening, and happening. Over and over while people do everything they can to blame anything other than the guns. It's always a matter of "security", or "mental health" or "education". And sure, those things are important. But if you just [I]took the fucking guns away[/I] then even without those other areas being worked on, you'd see a dramatic fall in situations like this. But sure, [I]I'm[/I] the asshole for pointing out the burning, screaming elephant in the room. [QUOTE=AaronM202;52874390]-snip- Is it necessary to act like this? Do you honestly think anyone wants to listen to you talk to them like this? Why do people keep thinking its okay to be snide and rude to gun owners in these gun threads, as if that'll somehow be productive.[/QUOTE] Productive? You expect any sort of discussion on this subject to be [I]productive!?[/I] Your posts in response to me are proof alone that trying to be "productive" in this circumstance is pointless. There is no argement I can make, no statistic I can bring up, no point I can hammer home that won't get ignored, misquoted or dismissed by people in their effort to avoid the problems your country faces on this matter. All I can do is point the finger at just how absurd this whole situation is.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874034]I can't imagine living in a place where the likelihood of being gunned down in the goddamn street is so high.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Ona;52874091]The difference between a sketchy part of town over here vs over in the 'States is that [I]here[/I] the worst you're likely to encounter is a guy with a knife. And while that's scary, sure enough, you can't shoot up a building with a knife.[/QUOTE] All you're really telling us is that you don't understand what the United States is like (unless you're a gang member in a big city you have no legitimate reason whatsoever to be afraid of 'being gunned down in the goddamned street'), and that you're so irrationally afraid of mass shootings that for whatever reason you consider the possibility of being stabbed to death by a mugger in your country less concerning than a likelihood of dying in a mass shooting on par with [i]dying from lightning strike[/i] in ours. Anyone who has this impression of the US as a murder frenzy wasteland, let alone is scared to come here because they're afraid for their safety, really needs to stop getting their idea of the country from TV and the Internet. Our rates of robbery, rape, assault, and other violent crimes are only slightly higher than yours. Unless you're coming here with the intent to go hang out in downtown Chicago or NY slums, you're safer here than in much of Europe.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874435]I long ago accepted that there is no way to criticise American gun policy on this forum (or really anywhere with a large base of US users) without several people reflexively lashing out at you. Trying to "win people over" on this subject is pointless. All I'm doing is pointing out just how stupid this whole problem is.[/QUOTE] Are they lashing at you because you're criticizing or lashing at you because you're calling them fucking blood parasites and talking down to them in a condescending manner? I get a big impression its the latter. [QUOTE=Ona;52874435]At the end of the day, Occam's razor wins out: Easy access to guns + A few deranged individuals = Wide-scale death by firearms. And therefore, we can use basic math to deduce that by reducing access to firearms, we can reduce the cases where one nutjob goes on a rampage and breaks one of the world's worst records in a single insane cascade.[/QUOTE] I'm not a gun own, never bought one, they make me nervous, but last i heard they're not all that easy to actually obtain in most states, you cant just buy a rifle at a wal-mart like a big-mac. [QUOTE=Ona;52874435]This isn't a complex problem to understand, but no matter what people say, it keeps happening, and happening, and happening. Over and over while people do everything they can to blame anything other than the guns. [/QUOTE] It [i]IS[/i] a complex issue that you're willingly being ignorant of, that might be why people are bitching at you. [QUOTE=Ona;52874435]It's always a matter of "security", or "mental health" or "education". And sure, those things are important. But if you just [I]took the fucking guns away[/I] then even without those other areas being worked on, you'd see a dramatic fall in situations like this. [/QUOTE] How? How do you take the guns away. Stop saying vague things, go into detail, how do you do it? How do you take the guns away without inciting a civil war because the right to weaponry is part of our bill of rights, which is ingrained into the culture. [QUOTE=Ona;52874435]But sure, [I]I'm[/I] the asshole for pointing out the burning, screaming elephant in the room.[/QUOTE] Given your apparent lack of willingness to actually discuss or communicate like a rational adult with other people and your apparent refusal to understand the nuances of a situation and how it might not be as simple as you think it is, yeah. Maybe if you tried talking [I]with[/I] someone instead of [I]at[/I] them, you might not get yelled at. Whoa.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874435]At the end of the day, Occam's razor wins out: Easy access to guns + A few deranged individuals = Wide-scale death by firearms. And therefore, we can use basic math to deduce that by reducing access to firearms, we can reduce the cases where one nutjob goes on a rampage and breaks one of the world's worst records in a single insane cascade.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Ona;52874435]But sure, [I]I'm[/I] the asshole for pointing out the burning, screaming elephant in the room.[/QUOTE] No, it's more for treating us all like gun-happy rednecks in a thread where multiple gun owners have expressed clear desire for reforms to, as you say, reduce access to firearms. It's the blase 'just get rid of guns already you fucking idiots' sentiment, ignoring all the context and nuance that has already been provided, trying to pass off ignorance as an outsider's perspective, that's extremely frustrating to deal with.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874435] Productive? You expect any sort of discussion on this subject to be [I]productive!?[/I] Your posts in response to me are proof alone that trying to be "productive" in this circumstance is pointless. There is no argement I can make, no statistic I can bring up, no point I can hammer home that won't get ignored, misquoted or dismissed by people in their effort to avoid the problems your country faces on this matter. All I can do is point the finger at just how absurd this whole situation is.[/QUOTE] Have you tried not being stuck up and full of yourself? Have you tried genuinely considering [i]ANYTHING[/i] that [i]ANYONE[/i] says beyond your complete and utter unwillingness to cooperate or discuss [i]ANY ASPECT[/i] of this like a rational adult? Your understanding of this situation reads like an angry child throwing a temper tantrum at the mere implication that he's not correct.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874435]I long ago accepted that there is no way to criticise American gun policy on this forum (or really anywhere with a large base of US users) without several people reflexively lashing out at you. Trying to "win people over" on this subject is pointless. All I'm doing is pointing out just how stupid this whole problem is. At the end of the day, Occam's razor wins out: Easy access to guns + A few deranged individuals = Wide-scale death by firearms. And therefore, we can use basic math to deduce that by reducing access to firearms, we can reduce the cases where one nutjob goes on a rampage and breaks one of the world's worst records in a single insane cascade. This isn't a complex problem to understand, but no matter what people say, it keeps happening, and happening, and happening. Over and over while people do everything they can to blame anything other than the guns. It's always a matter of "security", or "mental health" or "education". And sure, those things are important. But if you just [I]took the fucking guns away[/I] then even without those other areas being worked on, you'd see a dramatic fall in situations like this. But sure, [I]I'm[/I] the asshole for pointing out the burning, screaming elephant in the room.[/QUOTE] If we banned encryption in europe, terrorists would be unable to plan in secret. If we banned all immigrants from north africa, eastern europe, asia there would be less crime in western europe. If non-whites were rounded up into detention camps in britain crime would decrease slightly. If every citizen was subject to random searches for contraband more criminals would be caught. Each one of these measures would reduce crime and basic math says that less criminals=less crime on the streets. Are you willing to give up all your freedoms or are you gonna stutter and say "b-but muh rights to privacy in europe!". Don't call me the asshole for pointing out the burning, screaming elephant in the room of "privacy" or "freedom" which gives criminals protections. If you don't support the examples i gave you, you must support terrorism and kids dying!

It is really not difficult to have a mature, friendly, and open discussion on this issue. Not categorically disregarding the other party and calling them parasites is a good starting point.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;52874478]Have you tried not being stuck up and full of yourself? Have you tried genuinely considering [i]ANYTHING[/i] that [i]ANYONE[/i] says beyond your complete and utter unwillingness to cooperate or discuss [i]ANY ASPECT[/i] of this like a rational adult? Your understanding of this situation reads like an angry child.[/QUOTE] I did, once. But I've long ago given in to the fact that if a bunch of actual politicians with real power and impact can't change this, then the hopes of me having any sort of influence are nonexistent. You expect me to talk about this shit rationally and sensibly, and yet you don't seem to be getting the whole [I]point[/I] of what I'm saying: [B] This issue is not logical, or rational. [/B] Logic and reason have no place in this discussion. They haven't for a long time. The mere fact you have to ask "how" to get rid of guns without, as you yourself say , starting a fucking civil war, is evidence enough to me that there is little hope for reasonable debate here. What do you expect me to say? "Oh yes, I know exactly how to convince millions of people to give up the deadly weapons they firmly believe they are right to own, here is my magical fix-all switch to make everyone realise how an abundance of lethal weaponry equates to widespread death!"? All I'm doing is calling this whole situation out for the disgraceful farce that it is.

Maybe if you try to apply rational thinking and logic to your standpoint enough times and find that it only works when considered from a purely emotional standpoint while crumpling under logical examination, you should re-evaluate your opinions.

[QUOTE=Ona;52874525]I did, once. But I've long ago given in to the fact that if a bunch of actual politicians with real power and impact can't change this, then the hopes of me having any sort of influence are nonexistent.[/QUOTE] Stop being melodramatic, this isnt a movie, jesus christ. [QUOTE=Ona;52874525]You expect me to talk about this shit rationally and sensibly, and yet you don't seem to be getting the whole [I]point[/I] of what I'm saying: This issue is not logical, or rational. Logic and reason have no place in this discussion. They haven't for a long time. The mere fact you have to ask "how" to get rid of guns without, as you yourself say , starting a fucking civil war, is evidence enough to me that there is little hope for reasonable debate here.[/QUOTE] Stop. If you're going to continue this ignorant rant, just stop. If you dont care to actually learn about what its like to live here, or what the country is like, or how it functions, or anything of the sort, why are you arguing? [QUOTE=Ona;52874525]What do you expect me to say? "Oh yes, I know exactly how to convince millions of people to give up the deadly weapons they firmly believe they are right to own, here is my magical fix-all switch to make everyone realise how an abundance of lethal weaponry equates to widespread death!"? All I'm doing is calling this whole situation out for the disgraceful farce that it is.[/QUOTE] What is wrong with you? Genuinely. Is it possible for you to act like a respectable human being who treats others like they're something more than shit on the ground? Everything you've said sounds like you have a GI Joe level understanding of politics and subtlety.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;52874535]What is wrong with you? Genuinely. Is it possible for you to act like a respectable human being who treats others like they're something more than shit on the ground?[/QUOTE] By his own admission his argument doesn't hold up to logic, yet we're still wrong. What are you expecting from this discussion?