Belgium Gaming Commission: Randomized lootboxes are gambling, we want to get them out of Europe - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52913679]In principle, yes. Sure, they're not as bad as the one's in BF2 right now, because they don't give you any advantages in gameplay, but many people put a lot of value into the skins they get, and will go to extreme lengths to unlock them. So if you're a kid and want a legendary skin for Hanzo in Overwatch, you might end up spending hundreds of dollars on lootboxes before you finally get it.[/QUOTE] Alternatively, the parent of that child doesn't let them use their credit card to spend hundreds of dollars on loot boxes. Or even better, a parent doesn't let their kid play violent online video games with random strangers. Its not blizards responsibility to raise the children that play its games

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52913930]Alternatively, the parent of that child doesn't let them use their credit card to spend hundreds of dollars on loot boxes. Or even better, a parent doesn't let their kid play violent online video games with random strangers. Its not blizards responsibility to raise the children that play its games[/QUOTE] Overwatch is rated T

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52913930]Alternatively, the parent of that child doesn't let them use their credit card to spend hundreds of dollars on loot boxes. Or even better, a parent doesn't let their kid play violent online video games with random strangers. Its not blizards responsibility to raise the children that play its games[/QUOTE] Alternatively, the kids steal their parents credit card. We've already many stories of children spending thousands of dollars on mobile games because they stole their parents credit cards. There's no reason to believe it should be any different with AAA games.

[QUOTE=CommanderPT;52913450]I'm all for it, fuck all of these randomized gambling shitboxes. They are a cancer in every game they touch. I don't like microtransactions to begin with but I'd rather have a system where I can buy whatever I want outright. (And not with some magical funcoinz either that are purely there to obfuscate the real cost of the thing you buy) The loss of the European market would be a far greater blow to them than removing lootboxes. Valve didn't abandon Australia and the EU because they demanded refunds for all purchases, they had to cave since there is a big market at stake. Same goes for scum like EA, if it goes through and lootboxes are classified as gambling they will cave, or risk being barred from selling games to the EU, which is a far greater financial loss than simply removing their precious gambling.[/QUOTE] Or they might regionlock the loot box system to only work for players outside of that region. EA's scummy enough to toe the line that finely, where someone just a few paces past the EU border has access to it but their neighbors do not.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52913679]In principle, yes. Sure, they're not as bad as the one's in BF2 right now, because they don't give you any advantages in gameplay, but many people put a lot of value into the skins they get, and will go to extreme lengths to unlock them. So if you're a kid and want a legendary skin for Hanzo in Overwatch, you might end up spending hundreds of dollars on lootboxes before you finally get it.[/QUOTE] Overwatch is not the best example you can give about gambling, every single cosmetic in the game is obtainable through normal play, buying the lootboxes is completely optional. But sure, I think they should remove the option to buy it, here's why. There are people who put out youtube videos and streamers who buy these lootboxes in a bulk and open them up in front of their audience. This is of course promoting this practice and sets bad example. What should be promoted is that simply playing the game and having fun is the correct way rather than taking shortcut.

[QUOTE=Drury;52913957]Overwatch is rated T[/QUOTE] Five minutes in a Call of Duty matchmaking lobby on XBL or PSN with voice chat enabled will provide all the proof you need that the ESRB is pissing into the wind every time they certify a game under their system.

[QUOTE=TestECull;52913965]Five minutes in a Call of Duty matchmaking lobby on XBL or PSN with voice chat enabled will provide all the proof you need that the ESRB is pissing into the wind every time they certify a game under their system.[/QUOTE] That's not the point. There's no blood or gore. For all intents and purposes, it is a game suitable for kids. Putting gambling elements in such a game is not morally right.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52913930]Alternatively, the parent of that child doesn't let them use their credit card to spend hundreds of dollars on loot boxes. Or even better, a parent doesn't let their kid play violent online video games with random strangers. Its not blizards responsibility to raise the children that play its games[/QUOTE] Last time I checked Overwatch was 12+ And even if that wasn't the case lootboxes/microtransactions at all in paid titles are fucking cancer and should get purged

Apparently this is fake news [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7eqpy6/no_belgium_did_not_rule_lootboxes_as_gambling/[/url] The commission has not yet issued an official statement.

[QUOTE=Sithramir;52913425]I'll cross post from Spambots: Regulation is needed, but an outright ban is not the way to go and will harm a lot of developers that do not implement it in a bad way.[/QUOTE] It's pretty flawed to compare lootboxes in games to things like blind boxes and TCG card packs. They're entirely different situations with entirely different approaches to the broadly similar "Open thing to get something random". With Blind Boxes and Card Packs, those things [I]are[/I] the entire point of getting them. They aren't shoved ontop of another product or locking away parts of something you'd have gotten as part of the complete package many years ago. The reason those are like that is because that's the overall experience, there is no maliciousness behind them being made random, they don't design those systems in such a way to take advantage of you by being part of another seperate product and sneakily trying to encourage you to keep buying more as if it's no big deal. The main reason a comparison of the two doesn't work is because of the vastly different circumstances that lead to obtaining them. You have to either order them online and wait for them to be delievered, or go out and get them with the physical stuff. With lootboxes, you get advertisements shoved into a game you've already paid for and it's usually as simple as a few clicks with very little thought requirement. There is a huge difference between opening real versions, and the lootboxes in games; one of them allows you plenty of opportunity to stop yourself just buying more in such a way that you aren't really going to order/buy some and immediately keep throwing money at it until you get what you want, the other is so easy and designed to take advantage of you that it's a problem. There's a disconnect between physical getting something and getting a digital version that can potentially lead to someone not realizing what they're actually doing when they buy lootboxes in large amounts, because there's basically no steps between thinking about it and getting it that give them time to realize, which in combination with them being addictive for some people means they are a much worse thing than the physical randomized-item stuff. There's also the lesser aspect that with physical items, they can be traded, sold or even given away. Not always the case with lootboxes in games, it's can lead to a case of people opening one and going "Oh, i got a duplicate/thing i didn't want and i can't do anything with it, better buy more". The item you get in physical cards/boxes tends to still be worth the price you paid for the item, you can't say the same when you open something like a crate in CS:GO and get an item worth £0.03p from your £2.50 crate (or however much they cost now). There are completely different factors to the two things, comparing them doesn't make a lot of sense beyond the basic idea. Basically, one is a relatively harmless aspect of collecting something that doesn't necessarily put you at a disadvantage, the other is usually designed in such a way to put you at a disadvantage so they can squeeze more money out of you with scummy practices.

Lootboxes are tolerable if you're just paying in-game currency; it's a pretty good way to ensure everyone has an equal chance at the super rare stuff. But if I have to pay real money, I better get [I]exactly[/I] what I want. It baffles me that the gaming community has put up with them for so long.

[QUOTE=Drury;52913995]Apparently this is fake news [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7eqpy6/no_belgium_did_not_rule_lootboxes_as_gambling/[/url] The commission has not yet issued an official statement.[/QUOTE] Whilst the article is fake, apparently the Justice Minister has said he wants them banned: [quote][url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/7eqpy6/no_belgium_did_not_rule_lootboxes_as_gambling/dq6ud24/?st=jab5ws7f&sh=bc4c7256]Belgian here. The fact that our Gambling Commission apparently has not finished their investigation yet DOES NOT change the fact that our Justice Minister Koen Geens has said during a TV interview, on his website, and on Twitter, that he wants these lootboxes banned. What Geens has said is basically his personal opinion. Our Gambling Commission can only give advice, our government is not required to follow that advice. So if Geens wants to ban it, even if the commission says it's not gambling, he can perfectly do that. This article (in Dutch) is way better than the VTM one the foreign press used in my opinion: [url]http://www.4gamers.be/specials/62349/1/Interview-Belgische-Kansspelcommissie-over-gokken-in-games[/url] EDIT: By the way, the same website also interviewed the head of the Belgian Gambling Commission. If you speak Dutch it's worth a read: http://www.4gamers.be/specials/62349/1/Interview-Belgische-Kansspelcommissie-over-gokken-in-games[/url][/quote]

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52913685]there's nothing wrong with cosmetic-only lootboxes [b]if there is no way to buy said lootboxes with real money[/b] if you want to spend real money you should be able to buy what you want outright. i don't mind lootboxes as drops for playing the game so long as there is no way and no need to spend money on them[/QUOTE] Now see, I actually like that idea. Make it so playing the game gives you free crates that have random chances to have something nice (it might actually be tolerable if they aren't rigging the drop rates to entice BUYING loot boxes) and have a MTX shop where you can DIRECTLY buy things that interest you. I feel like that's a decent trade off. Of course me personally, I wanna see loot boxes go the way of the dodo. I don't mind paying for some extra content in my games, but it has to be within reason, and the base game has to do a well enough job of drawing me in to make me feel like the game DESERVES my hard earned money.

[QUOTE=Solo Wing;52914123]Now see, I actually like that idea. Make it so playing the game gives you free crates that have random chances to have something nice (it might actually be tolerable if they aren't rigging the drop rates to entice BUYING loot boxes) and have a MTX shop where you can DIRECTLY buy things that interest you. I feel like that's a decent trade off. Of course me personally, I wanna see loot boxes go the way of the dodo. I don't mind paying for some extra content in my games, but it has to be within reason, and the base game has to do a well enough job of drawing me in to make me feel like the game DESERVES my hard earned money.[/QUOTE] Titanfall 2 did this very nicely. Every time you levelled up a faction (announcer, levelling them up is basically the number of wins you get) you got an "advocate gift" which was a random cosmetic item from a pool and it was never a duplicate, sometimes it was EXP and sometimes it was a ticket to the coliseum(which is a shit 1v1 mode nobody really plays and if you win your reward is another advocate gift.) Heck titanfall 2 is the only recent multiplayer game that has done post launch support nicely as far as I am aware, free maps, free weapons, free titans and the only shit you can buy is skins and taunts and the like (and they added a bunch of executions you can unlock for free) and you don't get any lootbox crap, just pay for skin, dun. And of course, EA went ot of their way to abort titanfall 2 by launching it slap bang between BF1 and CoD:IW and not marketing it at all.

If you listen carefully you can hear the sound of EA eating shit.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;52914165]Titanfall 2 did this very nicely. Every time you levelled up a faction (announcer, levelling them up is basically the number of wins you get) you got an "advocate gift" which was a random cosmetic item from a pool and it was never a duplicate, sometimes it was EXP and sometimes it was a ticket to the coliseum(which is a shit 1v1 mode nobody really plays and if you win your reward is another advocate gift.) Heck titanfall 2 is the only recent multiplayer game that has done post launch support nicely as far as I am aware, free maps, free weapons, free titans and the only shit you can buy is skins and taunts and the like (and they added a bunch of executions you can unlock for free) and you don't get any lootbox crap, just pay for skin, dun. And of course, EA went ot of their way to abort titanfall 2 by launching it slap bang between BF1 and CoD:IW and not marketing it at all.[/QUOTE] I keep hearing good shit about Titanfall 2 so I feel the need to ask since Black Friday is upon us. Is it worth picking up? Especially with the knowledge that Respawn Entertainment is signing on with EA? Like is it REALLY worth it?

[QUOTE=Solo Wing;52914193]I keep hearing good shit about Titanfall 2 so I feel the need to ask since Black Friday is upon us. Is it worth picking up? Especially with the knowledge that Respawn Entertainment is signing on with EA? Like is it REALLY worth it?[/QUOTE] It's one of the greatest games in recent memory, with a dedicated fanbase and committed developers. Yes, it's absolutely worth it. As for EA acquiring Respawn, well, time will tell. Respawn themselves have said that EA has promised they will not interfere with their game development, but we'll see if that's true in due time.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52914205]It's one of the greatest games in recent memory, with a dedicated fanbase and committed developers. Yes, it's absolutely worth it. As for EA acquiring Respawn, well, time will tell. Respawn themselves have said that EA has promised they will not interfere with their game development, but we'll see if that's true in due time.[/QUOTE] Every studio swallowed by EA that has subsequently died has said the same thing. I wouldn't hold out hope.

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;52913482]TCGs and CCGs are pretty different from games though. you know what you're getting into with a game like magic if you want to be a hardcore player the difference is you can generally find and buy a specific card on ebay, not so much with a lootbox. you dont have to buy more card packs if you're looking for a specific card, but you sure as shit have to buy more lootboxes if you want widowmakers bikini[/QUOTE] Oooor, you could use currency on that. The thing that if you play the game with any amount of regularity you will be absolutely fucking swimming in.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52914205]It's one of the greatest games in recent memory, with a dedicated fanbase and committed developers. Yes, it's absolutely worth it. As for EA acquiring Respawn, well, time will tell. Respawn themselves have said that EA has promised they will not interfere with their game development, but we'll see if that's true in due time.[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/123200-EA-Gave-BioWare-Complete-Creative-Control]Bioware said the same thing[/url]

Germany doesn't have a proper gambling commission or real oversight for it (:why:), but I'd say the BMFSFJ is [I]probably[/I] not the wrong place to send complaints about this to. You can find their contact form [URL="https://www.bmfsfj.de/bmfsfj/service/kontakt"]here[/URL], if you're German and want to send them a complaint. Not sure if our failed coalition talks affect their ability to do something right now, though. As usual, our ratings agency is industry-controlled and won't act unless this kind of thing is outlawed for minors (or to prevent a potential blanket ban for all ages).

I am finally proud to post this. [video=youtube;Wtl8VN2lWaI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtl8VN2lWaI&ab_channel=NationalAnthemsChannel[/video] this shit is going on way too long and finally some folks decided to take a stance. Now hoping it actually gets regulated.

I think the only good Lootbox in a game I've played was ME3's multiplayer. It was all co-op, so the only competitive edge was with getting a meaninglessly higher score; currency to earn the boxes was generous, making enough to get the premium pack in 3 gold matches, I believe; nothing was limited time, so you'd never be pressured to spend real money to get the holiday dildo skin for a gun. Glad something's being done, though. I agree it's extremely predatory; I've even fallen victim to it thanks to Fire Emblem Heroes and wanting to get at least one of every character, even the shitty holiday ones.

[QUOTE=Peon Greenjoy;52913963]Overwatch is not the best example you can give about gambling, every single cosmetic in the game is obtainable through normal play, buying the lootboxes is completely optional.[/quote] I'd like to see you obtain all event skins without buying lootboxes. You'd have a point about all skins being eventually obtainable if most of them weren't available for limited durations.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52913959]Alternatively, the kids steal their parents credit card. We've already many stories of children spending thousands of dollars on mobile games because they stole their parents credit cards. There's no reason to believe it should be any different with AAA games.[/QUOTE] Kids being shitty, playing games they don't meet the age requirements for and stealing money from their parents still isn't valid justification. Overwatch is not rated E, its rated T. If a kid is a sack of shit and doesn't understand that stealing is wrong, then thats the fault of the parents. Its also the fault of the parents for not researching a game before they blindly buy it for their kids. It is not the responsibility of the game industry to reer children or teach them right and wrong. Are you going to petition for the removal of sex and violence from video games because parents will buy those games for their kids despite the M or A rating? I dont like loot boxes either, but don't use "think of the chidlins!" as some lame excuse. [editline]22nd November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Eva-1337;52914526]I think the only good Lootbox in a game I've played was ME3's multiplayer. It was all co-op, so the only competitive edge was with getting a meaninglessly higher score; currency to earn the boxes was generous, making enough to get the premium pack in 3 gold matches, I believe; nothing was limited time, so you'd never be pressured to spend real money to get the holiday dildo skin for a gun. Glad something's being done, though. I agree it's extremely predatory; I've even fallen victim to it thanks to Fire Emblem Heroes and wanting to get at least one of every character, even the shitty holiday ones.[/QUOTE] Rainbow six is better. You have an increasing chance to get a loot pack with every match won, and you can buy loot boxes (alpha packs) with in-game currency. You can also buy skins outright with ingame currency. Buying skins and loot boxes with real currency is completely optional.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52914751]Overwatch is not rated E, its rated T.[/QUOTE] So what? Is gambling legal for 14 year-olds?

[QUOTE=_Axel;52914763]So what? Is gambling legal for 14 year-olds?[/QUOTE] Good zinger but I didn't imply that. This humble man doesn't believe that loot boxes, in most cases or atleast specifically Overwatch's, don't meet the definition for gambling. If you want to call it predatory, fine. But gambling? Nah.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52914768]Good zinger but I didn't imply that. This humble man doesn't believe that loot boxes, in most cases or atleast specifically Overwatch's, don't meet the definition for gambling. If you want to call it predatory, fine. But gambling? Nah.[/QUOTE] Then I have a question for you. Why do you think gambling is age-restricted?

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52914751]Kids being shitty, playing games they don't meet the age requirements for and stealing money from their parents still isn't valid justification. Overwatch is not rated E, its rated T. If a kid is a sack of shit and doesn't understand that stealing is wrong, then thats the fault of the parents. Its also the fault of the parents for not researching a game before they blindly buy it for their kids. It is not the responsibility of the game industry to reer children or teach them right and wrong. Are you going to petition for the removal of sex and violence from video games because parents will buy those games for their kids despite the M or A rating? I dont like loot boxes either, but don't use "think of the chidlins!" as some lame excuse.[/QUOTE] Here's the thing. Violence and sex in video-games aren't something you pay extra for. It's part of the game itself. I mean, take Doom as an example. It's extremely gory and certainly not for kids, and neither is marketed towards kids. But neither does the game have lootboxes that locks progress-essential gear behind a paywall, because you get a pitiful amount of in-game currency through regular play. On the other hand, BF2 [I]does[/I] lock essential gear behind lootboxes, and the game does everything in its power to incentivize you to buy lootboxes with real money. [I]That is a serious issue.[/I] But fine, let's ignore the kids. Instead, let's focus on people who may have, or have had, gambling issues. They buy a game in good faith, only to realise their progress is hampered by a gambling system that could, at its worst, cause them to fall back into their old habits. These people should not face that kind of risk just because they wanted to enjoy a game.

[QUOTE=_Axel;52914778]Then I have a question for you. Why do you think gambling is age-restricted?[/QUOTE] Because children aren't mature enough to handle money in that regard. Which goes back to my earlier statement: if a parent can't control their child from stealing a credit card and wasting their money on video game loot boxes, that is not the responsibility of the game to restrict that. That is the responsibility of the parent. So again, does the video game industry need to handle everything with kid gloves because children can't be reered properly? Is it such a wild idea that parents shouldn't let their kids think stealing is ok? [editline]22nd November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52914800]Here's the thing. Violence and sex in video-games aren't something you pay extra for. It's part of the game itself. I mean, take Doom as an example. It's extremely gory and certainly not for kids, and neither is marketed towards kids. But neither does the game have lootboxes that locks progress-essential gear behind a paywall, because you get a pitiful amount of in-game currency through regular play. On the other hand, BF2 [I]does[/I] lock essential gear behind lootboxes, and the game does everything in its power to incentivize you to buy lootboxes with real money. [I]That is a serious issue.[/I] But fine, let's ignore the kids. Instead, let's focus on people who may have, or have had, gambling issues. They buy a game in good faith, only to realise their progress is hampered by a gambling system that could, at its worst, cause them to fall back into their old habits. These people should not face that kind of risk just because they wanted to enjoy a game.[/QUOTE] Like I said in a prior post, I'm not defending loot boxes or pay-to-play systems. I'm arguing that "think of the kids!" is not a valid way to tackle this issue.