Belgium Gaming Commission: Randomized lootboxes are gambling, we want to get them out of Europe - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=phygon;52916138] See above. Also, Lootboxes are not gambling any more than booster packs for card games are.[/QUOTE] Oh, this tired excuse. "It's not gambling as long as you are getting something." I'll ask you not to shit in my palm and tell me its chocolate. It's still gambling because you are still buying both of those in the hopes of getting that rare drop you want. It doesn't matter that you are still getting some useless garbage tier card/spray/voice-line/whatever most of the time to replace the you getting absolutely nothing. If all it took was for them to introduce some meager 'rewards' for things not to be considered gambling, then you can bet your ass a lot of casinos would introduce 'family friendly' games, where you 'win' a piece of candy every time, but it tastes like shit, but hey, you still win something! And your excuse of getting the in-game currency in Overwatch is also bull, I might add. There is no constant trickle of credits at your disposal, they are RNG based just like every other drop in the game. You are relying on getting lucky on a drop of cash or for something you have to be a duplicate. Your excuse is more gambling.

stealing this from video section: [media]https://youtu.be/uwLMuhdmuJY[/media]

[QUOTE=kilerabv;52916562]Oh, this tired excuse. "It's not gambling as long as you are getting something." I'll ask you not to shit in my palm and tell me its chocolate. It's still gambling because you are still buying both of those in the hopes of getting that rare drop you want. It doesn't matter that you are still getting some useless garbage tier card/spray/voice-line/whatever most of the time to replace the you getting absolutely nothing. If all it took was for them to introduce some meager 'rewards' for things not to be considered gambling, then you can bet your ass a lot of casinos would introduce 'family friendly' games, where you 'win' a piece of candy every time, but it tastes like shit, but hey, you still win something! And your excuse of getting the in-game currency in Overwatch is also bull, I might add. There is no constant trickle of credits at your disposal, they are RNG based just like every other drop in the game. You are relying on getting lucky on a drop of cash or for something you have to be a duplicate. Your excuse is more gambling.[/QUOTE] Well, at least you're consistent. There isn't much to argue if we're arguing for entirely different points, as you agree that they are the same meaning that we are using entirely different meanings for the word. The rest of my post was about how it being or not being gambling was irrelevant, but you ignored that bit to focus in on a single line. Also, it's not an "excuse". I have thousands and thousands of credits in Overwatch that I haven't spent and still have all of the skins that I want. Droprates are stupid high and blizz chucks more than a few free boxes at you. They may be RNG based but they're definitely not unfair, and the longer you play the game, the more credits you're going to get for each box you open.

[QUOTE=phygon;52916159] I actually responded to that post, as well. At least in Overwatch, you can buy skins with currency which you will be floating in if you play the game even a little bit.[/QUOTE] as someone with repeatedly bad luck in overwatch, I wish I could say I've had that feeling but I haven't experienced it myself. The only time I can effectively grind for crates is arcade mode and even then, that's only a couple a week. i don't get nearly enough dups to get my cash reserves up for a legendary in less than a month

[QUOTE=LZTYBRN;52920046]as someone with repeatedly bad luck in overwatch[/QUOTE] See, this is why I want at least some measure of regulation over lootboxes. You have no way of knowing if you were genuinely unlucky or if the odds were rigged against you.

[QUOTE=_Axel;52915512]And why is that?[/QUOTE] If people want to blow their money on dumb shit, they have every right to do so. The only thing I could get behind is an age restriction to stop children from blowing thousands of dollars of their parent's money and stuff like that. I honestly don't know why that isn't already implemented, but anything beyond regulating lootboxes and microtransactions that are actually gambling with real money in order to make sure they practice fair business policies (such as not being able to rig it against the player's favor) is beyond what any government should bother attempting. Outright banning it entirely is ridiculous. I don't even support banning gambling, I don't see the point. People who get addicted to this kind of nonsense just need to learn to control themselves instead of relying on the government to get rid of things that they go weak in the knees over.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;52920141]People who get addicted to this kind of nonsense just need to learn to control themselves instead of relying on the government to get rid of things that they go weak in the knees over.[/QUOTE] Do you also think drug addicts should get over their problem through sheer force of will? Do you understand how addictions work?

[QUOTE=_Axel;52920264]Do you also think drug addicts should get over their problem through sheer force of will? Do you understand how addictions work?[/QUOTE] Posts like that make me wish psychology 101 were a mandatory class, to be honest. "It shouldn't be the government's job to handle addiction" is shitty imo, but you can debate it. It's not discordant with reality at the very least.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;52920141]If people want to blow their money on dumb shit, they have every right to do so. The only thing I could get behind is an age restriction to stop children from blowing thousands of dollars of their parent's money and stuff like that. I honestly don't know why that isn't already implemented, but anything beyond regulating lootboxes and microtransactions that are actually gambling with real money in order to make sure they practice fair business policies (such as not being able to rig it against the player's favor) is beyond what any government should bother attempting. Outright banning it entirely is ridiculous. I don't even support banning gambling, I don't see the point. People who get addicted to this kind of nonsense just need to learn to control themselves instead of relying on the government to get rid of things that they go weak in the knees over.[/QUOTE] Nah. Lootboxes are designed with the same intended effects as slot machines. They exploit all of the same personality traits and are designed with exactly the same philosophy, to be just as effective at luring people in and getting them to part with their cash- preferably over and over again as they get unlucky chasing a particular piece of content that they actually want. I don't see how it's any different from a gambling addict going for "just one more spin!" hoping that this time will be the jackpot. Only, they are completely unregulated. There isn't even an age restriction on purchasing lootboxes, they can show up in games rated wayyy below the legal gambling age- so even children can be pressured to buy them. If gambling is so heavily regulated, why should companies pushing something so similar in intent and effect be left entirely to their own devices?

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;52920141]If people want to blow their money on dumb shit, they have every right to do so. The only thing I could get behind is an age restriction to stop children from blowing thousands of dollars of their parent's money and stuff like that. I honestly don't know why that isn't already implemented, but anything beyond regulating lootboxes and microtransactions that are actually gambling with real money in order to make sure they practice fair business policies (such as not being able to rig it against the player's favor) is beyond what any government should bother attempting. Outright banning it entirely is ridiculous. I don't even support banning gambling, I don't see the point. People who get addicted to this kind of nonsense just need to learn to control themselves instead of relying on the government to get rid of things that they go weak in the knees over.[/QUOTE] That's like saying "you should just over come innate failures in the human condition/mentality as if they were nothing because that's how I deal with it" You're wildly insulated from issues of addiction or problems like that if this is your take dude. Wildly.

[QUOTE=Sithramir;52913425]I'll cross post from Spambots: Regulation is needed, but an outright ban is not the way to go and will harm a lot of developers that do not implement it in a bad way.[/QUOTE] I've seen this argument a lot. Are people conveniently forgetting that F2P games existed before lootboxes? Why are people so hung up on lootboxes being the only way to do microtransactions? I've played many F2P games over many years, spent probably more money than I should, but never bought any lootboxes. In fact, most of them didn't have any. It's not even that hard to do, companies have been doing it for years, they just got too greedy and hopped on the gambling gravy train. They just aren't happy with enough money or some money, they want [i]all[/i] your money, but they don't [I]need[/I] it to survive. They will do just fine without lootboxes. If not, that's their problem for relying on such predatory business practices.

[QUOTE=fulgrim;52920284]Nah. Lootboxes are designed with the same intended effects as slot machines. They exploit all of the same personality traits and are designed with exactly the same philosophy, to be just as effective at luring people in and getting them to part with their cash- preferably over and over again as they get unlucky chasing a particular piece of content that they actually want. I don't see how it's any different from a gambling addict going for "just one more spin!" hoping that this time will be the jackpot. Only, they are completely unregulated. There isn't even an age restriction on purchasing lootboxes, they can show up in games rated wayyy below the legal gambling age- so even children can be pressured to buy them. If gambling is so heavily regulated, why should companies pushing something so similar in intent and effect be left entirely to their own devices?[/QUOTE] Hell some games, like CSGO, even show you a fucking spinning slot with rare weapons you 'just' didn't get. It's 100 fucking percent gambling and that people are willing to ignore it because "Oh it has $0.00001 worth of theoretical value so it's fine" fucking sickens me.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;52923084]Hell some games, like CSGO, even show you a fucking spinning slot with rare weapons you 'just' didn't get. It's 100 fucking percent gambling and that people are willing to ignore it because "Oh it has $0.00001 worth of theoretical value so it's fine" fucking sickens me.[/QUOTE] Exactly. If the outcome of the loot role is entirely based on RNG, and you have the item you paid for within a second of opening the box- why do they choose to show us a spinning wheel graphic where we [i] juussst[/i] miss the legendary hat/character/skin/perk worth hundreds of pounds? Because they are literally trying to replicate the casino game experience down to the very last detail.

It's not the graphical representation that's the issue. It's the exploitative, soullessness of RNG boxes in general. "cleaning it up" isn't enough. It needs to fuck off.

This shit has been going on for a while now. Anyone remember APB reloaded? - rentals on exclusive weapons with real money. - only way to get a permanent version of most weapons is through the cash shop and usually costs half the price of a AAA game. - cash shop only items which unlocks vehicles from the opposite factions which actually behave differently. - spending real money for a premium subscription which gives you bonus money + experience, and shorter cool down times on abilities like ammo resupply crates and turbo boost on cars. And then there’s the fucking loot boxes for weapons with exclusive gameplay features: - A rocket launcher with air burst ability which kills you just outside of the 100 meter render distance. This is actually a huge advantage since it allows you to one shot campers and snipers from almost any firing angles. - an LMG which is just straight up better than the normal version and turns into an automatic laser when you fire it for a few seconds like the $2000 laser gun in CSGO. In fact, they are both modeled after the the same gun (Negev) - a flare gun which marks the position of all enemies within like 60 meters which normally can’t be unlocked until you reach level 255 death knight ranking. - Two guns which are the only weapons in the game capable of piercing through breakable map objects, other players, and doors. - A rifle that retained its stats despite the original weapon it was based on getting hit with a significant nerf. - An automatic shotgun which went from being borderline useless, to getting a buff which makes it press W + mouse 1 to win. - the best 3 machine pistols in the game - the first best machine pistol being a weapon that kills you in 0.5 seconds in a game where the average lowest time to kill on all other weapons is around 0.75 to 0.8 excluding heavy weapons like machine guns. And this is a game where you’re only allowed to trade loot boxed weapons for game currency which takes forever to earn with all the griefers and script kiddies killing your rewards. So there’s like a literal black market for loot box weapons where people use PayPal and hope they don’t get scammed. Getting back on topic, yeah this shit needs to die.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;52924024]It's not the graphical representation that's the issue. It's the exploitative, soullessness of RNG boxes in general. "cleaning it up" isn't enough. It needs to fuck off.[/QUOTE] I get that, I was trying to empathise the similarity between lootboxes and other forms of gambling. The whole process is almost identical- even down to the visual effects and audio cues. This isn't coincidence [i]This is by design.[/i] All of these features that appeared in slot machines and online gambling websites, features that are now present in lootboxes, have been tried and tested by casinos and online gambling sites to produce the most exploitative schemes intended to keep players spending money, to keep them gambling. Gambling is regulated for a reason, how is it that companies pushing something so fucking similar in function and form, something designed to be predatory, right down to the visual and audio cues- are allowed to operate with impunity?

I think it's very important to make a clear distinction between [I]microtransactions[/I] and [I]gambling[/I], which is what is being criticized here. The gambling aspect of loot boxes only arises because the microtransactions - real money payments - are being combined with what's analogous to a slot machine. Asking players to pay for equipment or characters that are borderline required to win the game is a clearly shitty, anti-consumer practice that makes the game much less enjoyable for many people who already paid full price for the game but don't want to spend more: But it's not gambling. If you know what you're getting when you pay, it's not gambling.

For all the shit Planetside 2 gets, they've done it right when it comes to microtransactions: you can buy cosmetics and weapons with zero RNG (except for the implant system, which is dumb, but at least it's not an essential part of the gameplay). If you want a kickass cosmetic set, and you want it for all classes, you can even buy crates with all the suits, again, with no RNG. If you do your game right and I like it, then I'll gladly spend more money on it, but only if you actually let me buy exactly what it is I'm after.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52924748]For all the shit Planetside 2 gets, they've done it right when it comes to microtransactions: you can buy cosmetics and weapons with zero RNG (except for the implant system, which is dumb, but at least it's not an essential part of the gameplay). If you want a kickass cosmetic set, and you want it for all classes, you can even buy crates with all the suits, again, with no RNG. If you do your game right and I like it, then I'll gladly spend more money on it, but only if you actually let me buy exactly what it is I'm after.[/QUOTE] Doesn't that game have premium-only camouflage that makes it hard to see which team you're on?

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52924833]Doesn't that game have premium-only camouflage that makes it hard to see which team you're on?[/QUOTE] Yes, but that's a fault with the camouflages themselves, not the microtransactions.

The only thing that worries me about this whole fiasco is how publishers will try to make up for this. What will they do in retaliation to try and create more revenue? I feel like ultimately the consumer is going to end up punished because of these regulations. While I agree with the course of action being taken, it's just scary to see what may come of this.

To everybody doubting the potential for this to completely change the current greed-driven games economy: As big and lucrative as the AAA games industry is, it's not above legal precedent. Games have had to bend to the ESRB for years, now. And they'll have to bend to this just the same. So long as the right people go through the right legal avenues, this [I]will[/I] come into effect, and godspeed to them. Randomized gambling systems in games have existed for far too long, and too many games thrive off them like maggots on a corpse. I know a lot of corperate executives are probably sobbing into their piles of money now that the Game is Up so to speak, but they were the ones who got the industry here in the first place. This entire ordeal will result in one of three things: 1) All the new laws pass, and game developers are forced to change their practices or suffer huge profit cuts as their games are no longer available for sale in certain countries, while also suffering a giant blow to their reputations. 2) Some of the new laws pass, and game developers are forced to alter some of their practices while reeling from the sudden backlash this has caused. 3) No new laws pass, but the cultural backlash, increased awareness and fact that this went so high in the first place means that future attempts at this bullshit simply will not fly, and the consumer base will (hopefully) keep the industry in check from now on with continued pushback. No matter what result, the simple fact that this issue has gotten the attention it deserves (finally) will mean that publishers and seedy developers will forever need to be on their toes concerning microtransactions. We're already seeing some games advertising themselves based on their [I]lack[/I] of in-game purchases! You know, like how "health" foods tend to advertise themselves as "corn syrup free"? "Loot box" and "Microtransactions" are becoming dirty words in the games industry business side of things, and I couldn't be happier. If official laws get passed to force these restrictions? All the better! But we've already dealt a serious blow to corporate greed in the industry. [I]So long as we never tolerate this bullshit ever again.[/I] [QUOTE=Flazer210;52925611]The only thing that worries me about this whole fiasco is how publishers will try to make up for this. What will they do in retaliation to try and create more revenue? I feel like ultimately the consumer is going to end up punished because of these regulations. While I agree with the course of action being taken, it's just scary to see what may come of this.[/QUOTE] Loot boxes flew under the radar for too long and became "accepted" by a lot of people up until now. But if any game publishers try any new sleazy tactics, they run the risk of jeopardizing their entire business. Because [I]now[/I] they've been dragged out into the light and ousted for the sneaky, greedy bastards they are. That means people - both consumers and lawmakers - will be watching every move these little weasels try to make. If they don't play it clean, or they try to introduce some new, slimy predatory scheme to "make up" for the "lost" revenue from this, then they'll have to do it under the gaze of a consumer wary consumer base [I]and[/I] the legal system itself. One wrong move in that circumstance will spell death for any would-be scam artists who can't play the business game cleanly. I mean, I've no doubt we'll get some publishers who are just too damn cocky and/or stupid to take the hint, who will try to spring some new slimeball deal on us all and assume they can get away with it a second time. But they won't last long, not with so many eyes on them. Those businesses will die in the ensuing shitstorm, and good bloody riddance to them. The games industry will need to play it clean or pack up and move to pachinko machines - Say what you like about Konami, at least they picked their side before the heat got turned up and now we don't have to think about their sleazy ass anymore.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;52925730]implants provide direct gameplay benefits, there's an implant that straight up regenerates your ammo up to 1 mag/equiv of ammo regen per 60 seconds as well as a hp regen implant that not only gives you out of combat hp regen, but straight up gives you 50 hp on a headshot kill at max level [url]https://streamable.com/4fpsk[/url] here's an example of a max being able to revive with more health and damage resistance than an unimplanted max, and proceeds to just mop the floor with the other max and some more guys[/QUOTE] I should probably have worded it better. Implants aren't essential in the sense that they are the 'be all, end all'. Sure, a guy with even a basic implant has a slight advantage over someone with none, but the guy with no implants isn't in a position where he has absolutely no chance of winning. There's very few of the implants that I would even consider to be akin to P2W.

I feel like Heroes of the Storm from Blizzard is the way I would like to see it. Everything can be unlocked using in-game earned items (gold and shards), but you can also buy anything with real cash, and none of it gives you any performance boost in game.

Yeah but you still pay to unlock heroes quickly. Ideally it'd work like HotS but without anything relevant to gameplay

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;52927039]Yeah but you still pay to unlock heroes quickly. Ideally it'd work like HotS but without anything relevant to gameplay[/QUOTE] I like being able to buy them because I don't have that much time to play thanks to work. But I also like that it's not that difficult for regular players to get enough gold to get the new heroes.