Gamers harass woman online over Mass Effect Andromeda - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51984522]your post doesn't make sense you're contradicting yourself[/QUOTE] laying someone off for doing a consistently bad job with a noticeable adverse effect is management punishing and shaming someone for doing a bad job is both unconstructive and unnecessary and especially juvenile when the whole purpose is solely to torment someone.

[QUOTE=Dr.C;51984587][...] this is something we have all seen. [...][/QUOTE] You're generalising here. For me for example that doesn't include the sexist variant. (The closest I saw first hand was some creep in the programming jokes thread (not targeting anyone), but that's one instance in ten years or something.) It's good to raise awareness of how to deal with things like this for when they crop up, but when you generalise you actually make the issue worse as HumanAbyss pointed out.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;51984632]You're generalising here. For me for example that doesn't include the sexist variant. (The closest I saw first hand was some creep in the programming jokes thread (not targeting anyone), but that's one instance in ten years or something.) It's good to raise awareness of how to deal with things like this for when they crop up, but when you generalise you actually make the issue worse as HumanAbyss pointed out.[/QUOTE] I apologize for the generalization but this was [B]really[/B] common several years ago. Times have changed and I'll admit that I too have not seen it in a long time but that's also because I took a hiatus from online gaming until overwatch and titanfall 2

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[QUOTE=Beetle179;51984417]How many mountains of evidence do you need to admit that the gaming community is pretty freaking sexist e: this was a bad comment, it's too hard to quantify this and I'm thinking of my experiences gaming over the last 10 years. Sometime later I may try to properly source this claim, but the fact that the gaming community has been called out so many times for being sexist, this conversation has happened so many times, should be indicative of itself[/QUOTE] okay wait hold up I didnt want to do anything with this thread but I have to reply to how stupid this fucking post is just because a group of people call something they are against something, does that mean it inherently is? might trump actually be hitler? is manspreading a serious issue then? are gender-coded traffic lights tearing our families apart? if something inane is discussed many times, does that make the discussion important? bottom line, video games are still tpically made for a major demographic of men. every step towards inclusion or diversity has been made not from a developer angle (because that would require women to be in the development cycle in larger numbers rather than token personnel) but from a PR angle which usually results in disastrous tumblr pandering, which in turn diminises the quality of the game in general, not just for "men". that is valid criticism, and until women get into the industry in larger numbers (and if they actually cared, I think by this time they would have) we will just have these champions of equality in a place where there never was any sexism, until you actually go out of your way to be offended.

[QUOTE=Kiwi;51984643]I had a really interesting conversation about this with my flatmate last night and we both came to the same conclusion that because the gaming industry is so competitive you will find that your style doesn't meet what's required but that doesn't mean that you aren't good enough for the industry as whole. Someone will take up your style. You just gotta keep going or try something new with your style. No need to kill your passion for being in a really huge and competitive industry just because you got turned down once that's lame-o and giving up too easily.[/QUOTE] That's what I'm sayIN'. Games is such a HUGE medium and you can do so many things. Mass Effect Andromeda and a game say like "Night in the Woods": [t]http://www.nightinthewoods.com/images/screenshots/screenshot8.jpg[/t] are so VASTLY DIFFERENT that it's obvious that two people with two different perceptions and skills did them. It's dumb as shit to say that just because you don't fit into one style that you shouldn't be making games lol. Just like any creative field, it takes all sorts.

[QUOTE=Dr.C;51984647]I apologize for the generalization but this was [B]really[/B] common several years ago. Times have changed and I'll admit that I too have not seen it in a long time but that's also because I took a hiatus from online gaming until overwatch and titanfall 2[/QUOTE] I get where you're coming from and I agree that it can still be a problem and was pretty bad at some point in certain communities. Just please try to avoid collateral damage when working against it.

[QUOTE=Beetle179;51984417]How many mountains of evidence do you need to admit that the gaming community is pretty freaking sexist e: this was a bad comment, it's too hard to quantify this and I'm thinking of my experiences gaming over the last 10 years. Sometime later I may try to properly source this claim, but the fact that the gaming community has been called out so many times for being sexist, this conversation has happened so many times, should be indicative of itself[/QUOTE] Every community can be painted as sexist and hateful if you try hard enough

[QUOTE=Pascall;51984661]That's what I'm sayIN'. Games is such a HUGE medium and you can do so many things. Mass Effect Andromeda and a game say like "Night in the Woods": [t]http://www.nightinthewoods.com/images/screenshots/screenshot8.jpg[/t] are so VASTLY DIFFERENT that it's obvious that two people with two different perceptions and skills did them. It's dumb as shit to say that just because you don't fit into one style that you shouldn't be making games lol. Just like any creative field, it takes all sorts.[/QUOTE] These unusual games are my favourite, which is the main reason the image gaming has in larger public opinion irks me so much.

[QUOTE=Pascall;51984616]Because she has a decent animation reel and not all games are AAA games and games in general is a diverse medium that requires differentiated skillsets, even in animators, because animation involves something called "style" and when a game has a certain "style" not every animator is fit to be apart of that "style" but there are certain people who might be absollutely fit to be a part of that "style" even if they don't necessarily fit into a AAA game "style". GAMING is such a broad and general industry and as general as movies and they are DIFFERENT and VARIED and require any number of people with any number of skills, styles, perceptions, and visions and just because this ONE chick didn't fit into this ONE job at this ONE game studio for this ONE game does not automatically disqualify her from the [B]gaming industry[/B] as a whole. Do you understand what I'm saying.[/QUOTE] I understand what you're saying but it doesn't make much sense. Sure, she can learn to program or to model or draw concept art or to make great music or sound effects or she could improve her animation a bit, and then find another job at any company. That is beside the point, though. You seem fixated on that I said "gaming industry" for some reason, but I don't understand why. Most games, including Mass Effect, go for a realistic style that requires realistic animations where people move like real people would, and did in previous Mass Effect games. Obviously, you're saying that her skill set could fit another game with a different style. Well, if there's a game studio that wants some of that soulless uncanny valley look for their game, then they should look no further than allierosemarie and the Mass Effect: Andromeda animator crew.

[QUOTE=Dr.C;51984587]I wasn't clear enough with what I wrote or I really screwed up somewhere. I didn't mean that we're all sexist or that you have to be sexist to be a gamer. I was saying that sexism and trolling are something prevalent in gaming communities and this is something we have all seen(or I thought we've seen). It's also something that negatively affects all of us since us people who aren't sexist or trolls get lumped in with the misogynists and trolls Now that's definitely the opposite of what I was trying to get across. I wasn't saying that I think gaming is a cocks only thing and women should get out, I mean that's how gaming is viewed and has been viewed by mainstream society. That's why they're called girl gamers and not just gamers[/QUOTE] I get what you're saying, but this is not something that's just part of gaming communities. Any larger community, no matter what, behaves exactly the way you describe it.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;51984672][...] That is beside the point, though. You seem fixated on that I said "gaming industry" for some reason, but I don't understand why. [...] [...][/QUOTE] The issue is that you were so imprecise and absolute in your original post, it hardly could have been interpreted as something other than an (imo nasty) comment completely out of left-field.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;51984672]I understand what you're saying but it doesn't make much sense. Sure, she can learn to program or to model or draw concept art or to make great music or sound effects or she could improve her animation a bit, and then find another job at any company. That is beside the point, though. You seem fixated on that I said "gaming industry" for some reason, but I don't understand why. Most games, including Mass Effect, go for a realistic style that requires realistic animations where people move like real people would, and did in previous Mass Effect games. Obviously, you're saying that her skill set could fit another game with a different style. Well, if there's a game studio that wants some of that soulless uncanny valley look for their game, then they should look no further than allierosemarie and the Mass Effect: Andromeda animator crew.[/QUOTE] The soulless animations are a result of the entire animation team, not one sole animator who said "let me put in 0 effort and I alone will approve this and I alone will put it into distribution with no approval from anyone else in this development team" and to hone in on this one person and rip on her ability to animate by being pointlessly inflammatory just because she attempted a style that she's obviously not comfortable or developed with is silly. If you're out here only playing realistically styled games and think that that's the end-all be all of game development to the point where if someone can't replicate that style then they don't belong in games then idk what to tell you??? Play more games and get a better sampling of what's out there, man. [editline]19th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Tamschi;51984687]The issue is that you were so imprecise and absolute in your original post, it hardly could have been interpreted as something other than an (imo nasty) comment completely out of left-field.[/QUOTE] Pretty much!

she developed a 40 million dollar game's facial animations and did stellarly below average for the budget, she deserves negative criticism completely fairly and justified, don't be an artist if you cant take it before anyone misinterprets this, nowhere did I say here that personal attacks are fine

[QUOTE=Egevened;51984705]she developed a 40 million dollar game's facial animations and did stellarly below average for the budget, she deserves negative criticism completely fairly and justified, don't be an artist if you cant take it before anyone misinterprets this, nowhere did I say here that personal attacks are fine[/QUOTE] The thing is though the article and the discussion is about the harassment.

[QUOTE=Dr.C;51984587]I wasn't saying that I think gaming is a cocks only thing and women should get out, I mean that's how gaming is viewed and has been viewed by mainstream society. That's why they're called girl gamers and not just gamers[/QUOTE] To expand on this point a little bit What I mean is an extension of what you're saying here. Yes that's how we're viewed in a mainsteam context, but it's also how our own media outlets report about us to ourselves. It fosters an atmosphere of "This is being reported on, it must be the case", and yes, it is the case that gaming is a hostile place. I wish it wasn't, but gaming has a lot of hostile people inside it's umbrella. Now if just "outsider" media(outsiders to us) was reporting us as this, it would be a negative, but we'd be able to fight it. What we have instead of that though, is both "outsider" or external media sources, as well as gamings internal news sources demonize gamers in all aspects. When Gamergate was happening, the media that covers gaming devolved into a shit flinging fest of nonsense. Issues became black and white, and the narrative that was peddled was "Look at all these gamers who hate women" meanwhile they also peddle the narrative "There's no women in gaming". It's a self fulfilling cycle. You dictate to the community how things are, when they fight back, you smear that as exactly what you were fighting against. Then outsiders who are looking in just see what the narrative framed the whole issue as and they get a very narrow view of "gaming" as a whole.

[QUOTE=Egevened;51984705]she developed a 40 million dollar game's facial animations and did stellarly below average for the budget, she deserves negative criticism completely fairly and justified, don't be an artist if you cant take it before anyone misinterprets this, nowhere did I say here that personal attacks are fine[/QUOTE] Nobody's saying she can't be criticized but that's not really what the article is about.

[QUOTE=Pascall;51984693]The soulless animations are a result of the entire animation team, not one sole animator who said "let me put in 0 effort and I alone will approve this and I alone will put it into distribution with no approval from anyone else in this development team" and to hone in on this one person and rip on her ability to animate by being pointlessly inflammatory just because she attempted a style that she's obviously not comfortable or developed with is silly. If you're out here only playing realistically styled games and think that that's the end-all be all of game development to the point where if someone can't replicate that style then they don't belong in games then idk what to tell you??? Play more games and get a better sampling of what's out there, man.[/QUOTE] Can you stop being condescending as fuck, it's really annoying. I'd gladly play more games, but my only pc is a potato laptop from 2012, though that is not the point. Sure, maybe Andromeda's animations are bad because of everyone involved, and maybe allierosemarie is a great animator who didn't have the time and resources to really shine because of bad organization at Bioware. As I've said before, I am actually inclined to believe that this was the case now, and as I've said in my first post, even if it was entirely her fault that ME:A animations suck, the people harassing her are obviously still massive assholes. If she actually is good (and she probably is and I'm being an overreacting internet idiot), then sure, she does deserve any job in the games industry she wants.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;51984733]Can you stop being condescending as fuck, it's really annoying. I'd gladly play more games, but my only pc is a potato laptop from 2012, though that is not the point. Sure, maybe Andromeda's animations are bad because of everyone involved, and maybe allierosemarie is a great animator who didn't have the time and resources to really shine because of bad organization at Bioware. As I've said before, I am actually inclined to believe that this was the case now, and as I've said in my first post, even if it was entirely her fault that ME:A animations suck, the people harassing her are obviously still massive assholes. If she actually is good (and she probably is and I'm being an overreacting internet idiot), then sure, she does deserve any job in the games industry she wants.[/QUOTE] Not even trying to be condescending so much as encouraging you to get out and explore some different styles of gaming to get a broader view on gaming as a whole. Like art, writing, movies, music, and anything creative, there's no real set of skills or ability that every single person within these fields has to possess to be a welcome addition to their respective industries. The more that people understand that, the easier it will be for anyone and everyone to get into these creative fields and learn and grow. If I seem snippy it's because your initial comment that she didn't belong in the industry was off base and close minded. But if you're willing to learn from the comments in this thread from myself or other people or anyone else, then that's good. I'll quit bein' snippy. Check out some smaller indie or single developer games if your pc sucks. They're usually easier on your system because they're not as huge and demanding as AAA games tend to be. If you want some suggestions even, I can give you some.

[QUOTE=Egevened;51984705]she developed a 40 million dollar game's facial animations and did stellarly below average for the budget, she deserves negative criticism completely fairly and justified, don't be an artist if you cant take it before anyone misinterprets this, nowhere did I say here that personal attacks are fine[/QUOTE] she was never the sole person in charge of facial animation, and it's possible she didn't even work on facial animation in the first place. it's not fair to use her as a scapegoat for something that's the fault of an entire team/bad management. most of the things being said are either criticisms (of things that aren't entirely her fault), or people pointing out that it's not completely her fault, but don't pretend that there were never any personal insults directed at her. i don't think that there were that many personal attacks directed at her in the first place though. i saw a few here and on that original article, but most of the comments were defending her. news sites are blowing this way out of proportion [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/33aGL3i.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/n6N9wxS.png[/IMG]

This whole thing just feels like it's a massive false flag operation to create more buzz for the game.

I get why people here are attacking harassment, as no-one should receive a barrage of insults online, yet I have no idea why the narrative is shifting from 'online harassment is bad' to 'all gamers are nazi goobergators who hate women because most girls weren't into games until recently'. The reason why the dev is getting hate from people is because people hyped Me4 up massively as redemption for Me3. Male devs get shit too when their games are terrible- look at Anthony Burch. It's more sexist IMO that the media is reporting on how this poor little lady is getting abuse from mean men online. Did you see news reports about online harassment for the Fo4 and NMS teams?

One of the problems with the harassment is that they're treating it like she herself is the reason the game has garbage animation, all the blame is on her. She's [B]not even[/B] the lead animator. The same thing happened with Dragon Age 2. People jumped on Hamburger Helper and blamed her for the game sucking when the writing of the game was just one of the many, many things wrong with the game and she wasn't even wholly responsible for that either. I can't say for sure it's because they're women but in both of these cases people were looking for a scapegoat

A lot of silence about Manveer Heir getting the same treatment. Though tbf he was a dick. The internet will tear down any fault(Whether real or perceived) it can find relentlessly. Articles like the ones above exist solely to manufacture controversy(and views) when the real problem is that the internet is a festering shithole that hates everyone.

[QUOTE=Cliff2;51984774]A lot of silence about Manveer Heir getting the same treatment. Though tbf he was a dick. The internet will tear down any fault(Whether real or perceived) it can find relentlessly. Articles like the ones above exist solely to manufacture controversy(and views) when the real problem is that the internet is a festering shithole that hates everyone.[/QUOTE] Yeah but they're attacking him because of his hatred of white people and not because they dislike the new art direction

So how come she listed herself as the lead facial animator? Did we ever figure that out?

[QUOTE=Dr.C;51984784]Yeah but they're attacking him because of his hatred of white people and not because they dislike the new art direction[/QUOTE] Nah they also attack him because they believe he's responsible for garbage writing.

[QUOTE=Coffee;51984761]This whole thing just feels like it's a massive false flag operation to create more buzz for the game.[/QUOTE] Sick of hearing that word

[QUOTE=Cliff2;51984790]Nah they also attack him because they believe he's responsible for garbage writing.[/QUOTE] Is he even writing the game? I thought he just did the art. I know he did the art for Halo 4 so I guess people think that he's the reason Halo 4 sucks, therefore he's the reason ME:A sucks when it's just coincidence they both suck and he's worked on both

[QUOTE=Pascall;51984746]Not even trying to be condescending so much as encouraging you to get out and explore some different styles of gaming to get a broader view on gaming as a whole. Like art, writing, movies, music, and anything creative, there's no real set of skills or ability that every single person within these fields has to possess to be a welcome addition to their respective industries. The more that people understand that, the easier it will be for anyone and everyone to get into these creative fields and learn and grow. If I seem snippy it's because your initial comment that she didn't belong in the industry was off base and close minded. But if you're willing to learn from the comments in this thread from myself or other people or anyone else, then that's good. I'll quit bein' snippy. Check out some smaller indie or single developer games if your pc sucks. They're usually easier on your system because they're not as huge and demanding as AAA games tend to be. If you want some suggestions even, I can give you some.[/QUOTE] Thanks, but I know my way around the indie games scene, that's all I've been able to play recently. I'd actually like to play Andromeda, just to see for myself if it is as bad as it looks. ME3 was worse than mega-hitler according to 2012 internet, but I enjoyed most of my playthrough of it. [QUOTE=technologic;51984767]I get why people here are attacking harassment, as no-one should receive a barrage of insults online, yet I have no idea why the narrative is shifting from 'online harassment is bad' to 'all gamers are nazi goobergators who hate women because most girls weren't into games until recently'. The reason why the dev is getting hate from people is because people hyped Me4 up massively as redemption for Me3. Male devs get shit too when their games are terrible- look at Anthony Burch. It's more sexist IMO that the media is reporting on how this poor little lady is getting abuse from mean men online. Did you see news reports about online harassment for the Fo4 and NMS teams?[/QUOTE] No one on Facepunch would ever say anything resembling 'all gamers are nazi goobergators who hate women because most girls weren't into games until recently', you should talk to the people who would say something like that to figure it out. Usually they're the people who don't play or even like games to begin with or the "i hate video games ~ironically~" type of people.