Scotland united in curiosity as councils trial universal basic income - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012443]Tax the rich more, spend less on military[/QUOTE] Dude, that still wouldn't work. Defense spending is around $500 billion a year. [url]https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/richest-1-percent-now-own-half-the-worlds-wealth.html[/url] US wealth increased by around $8 trillion this year. You'd have to tax literally all of that and completely eleminate defense spending to even come close to a $20k UBI at current productivity. You'd be taxing everyone, by the way, not just the 1%. That amount of taxation would drastically decrease growth the next year, meaning it's unsustainable. Give it time. UBI will come, but not at current productivity.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012443]Tax the rich more, spend less on military[/QUOTE] This isn't as [url=https://americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-taxing-wealthy-americans/]clear cut[/url] [url=https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/business/putting-numbers-to-a-tax-increase-for-the-rich.html]as it seems.[/url] [url=https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_budget_detail_fy17]Defense spending was only around $800 billion in total this fiscal year[/url], and taxing the wealthy a proper amount above 30% while also cutting down on loopholes and offshore moneyholders wouldn't bring in quite enough to cover $9.6 trillion dollars. That's more than double the entire government expenditure as it currently stands- it would help, but not by nearly enough. UBI is a massive social and economic undertaking and requires the efforts and support of an entire country's regulatory, legislative, and executive bodies to effectively accomplish. This is made even more difficult by the economic diversity and population capacity of the US. One route that I could see being effective is state-based UBI programs or even a UBI program provided by something as fine-grained as local government as even small regions in the states can have vastly disparate basic income requirements to stay above the poverty line.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012443]Tax the rich more, spend less on military[/QUOTE] They'd first put everything in offshore accounts that avoid taxation, they already do.

So what happens when someone wastes their UBI money and is still starving and without a place to stay? There are plenty of people who technically make enough to survive/pay basic rent/etc. but just aren't very good at planning their spending down to the dollar.

[QUOTE=Harbie;53012460]Dude, that still wouldn't work. Defense spending is around $500 billion a year. [url]https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/richest-1-percent-now-own-half-the-worlds-wealth.html[/url] US wealth increased by around $8 trillion this year. You'd have to tax literally all of that and completely eleminate defense spending to even come close to a $20k UBI at current productivity. You'd be taxing everyone, by the way, not just the 1%. That amount of taxation would drastically decrease growth the next year, meaning it's unsustainable. Give it time. UBI will come, but not at current productivity.[/QUOTE] This is also a similar issue in Canada. Our current spending for military and social benefit (Welfare, Unemployment Insurance, etc) does not come close to the total cost of maintaining a UBI country-wide.

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012492]So what happens when someone wastes their UBI money and is still starving and without a place to stay? There are plenty of people who technically make enough to survive/pay basic rent/etc. but just aren't very good at planning their spending down to the dollar.[/QUOTE] If you're literally handed enough to get by and blow it all on hookers and coke then maybe it's for the best. (This is assuming you mean it's not enough to survive because they waste it.) If you mean that it's not enough to survive as is, then I guess it's not a sufficient wage. Likely it'd be adjusted depending on the cost of living of where you are, or maybe you'd be incentivized to move to areas with a cheaper cost of living. Edit: Didn't see your edit. Well, if they're terrible consumers like that, there's not a lot we can do other than completely nanny state them and deliver food and water to them directly rather than just money. But at that point there's really no excuse. They're just being shitty with their money.

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012492]So what happens when someone wastes their UBI money and is still starving and without a place to stay? There are plenty of people who technically make enough to survive/pay basic rent/etc. but just aren't very good at planning their spending down to the dollar.[/QUOTE] What happens when someone wastes their welfare?

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012492]So what happens when someone wastes their UBI money and is still starving and without a place to stay? There are plenty of people who technically make enough to survive/pay basic rent/etc. but just aren't very good at planning their spending down to the dollar.[/QUOTE] Sadly we cannot force people to make good decisions, the best we can do is try to set them up with the means to support themselves as best as possible, including UBI, financial advice and so on. All we can do then is hope they make a good decision.

[QUOTE=Harbie;53012460]Dude, that still wouldn't work. Defense spending is around $500 billion a year. [url]https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/14/richest-1-percent-now-own-half-the-worlds-wealth.html[/url] US wealth increased by around $8 trillion this year. You'd have to tax literally all of that and completely eleminate defense spending to even come close to a $20k UBI at current productivity. You'd be taxing everyone, by the way, not just the 1%. That amount of taxation would drastically decrease growth the next year, meaning it's unsustainable. Give it time. UBI will come, but not at current productivity.[/QUOTE] Still haven't addressed the heightening taxes on rich, and creating harsher rules for off shore money

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012518]Still haven't addressed the heightening taxes on rich, and creating harsher rules for off shore money[/QUOTE] I literally did. "Wealth grew by $8 trillion last year.". That's all growth, rich included. And those offshore tax havens are used to avoid taxes on capital gains/income. The money earned is almost immediately invested, otherwise the rich would have their wealth devalued by inflation. That $8 trillion in growth is fueled partially by reinvestment of that money. The rich do sometimes hold a lot of money, but that's usually do to market uncertainty. There were some articles about $2 trillion being held in offshore accounts before the election, but that was mainly due to market uncertainty at the time.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012518]Still haven't addressed the heightening taxes on rich, and creating harsher rules for off shore money[/QUOTE] While adding a new tax bracket for even higher incomes (Top in Ontario is anyone at 220K+) can help, the issue with the offshore parts is how WELL it would work. In theory it sounds right. I don't entirely think just increasing the higher tax brackets alone will be enough, or even proper. It might be different in the states, but all things considered for Ontario tax, it's perfectly fine for someone at 220K. However once you start getting up around 500K+, it could be about time to add another bracket.

also reducing the privatization of public sources of revenue

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012551]also reducing the privatization of public sources of revenue[/QUOTE] I don't think you realize just how much $9.6 trillion is.

[QUOTE=Daemon White;53012506]What happens when someone wastes their welfare?[/QUOTE] Generally, most welfare is given as a service instead of just money (rent aid, food stamps, etc.). They don't just give you a check to spend how you like. I'm all for giving money instead of individual services, but I'm doubtful that society would be willing to let people starve if they waste it.

[QUOTE=Harbie;53012555]I don't think you realize just how much $9.6 trillion is.[/QUOTE] Everything i'm mentioning are building blocks, bits and pieces that contribute money [editline]29th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;53012563]Generally, most welfare is given as a service instead of just money (rent aid, food stamps, etc.). They don't just give you a check to spend how you like. I'm all for giving money instead of individual services, but I'm doubtful that society would be willing to let people starve if they waste it.[/QUOTE] And they shouldn't let them starve tbh

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012572] And they shouldn't let them starve tbh[/QUOTE] Right, so what do you do if you've replaced your welfare programs with a UBI?

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012577]Right, so what do you do if you've replaced your welfare programs with a UBI?[/QUOTE] I think a good option would be to offer "plans" alongside the income. IE, along with the $20k give them a plan that will get them a studio apartment, utilities, and credit for groceries for $19k. That way, if they fuck up their spending one year, they have the perfect out the year after.

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012563]Generally, most welfare is given as a service instead of just money (rent aid, food stamps, etc.). They don't just give you a check to spend how you like. I'm all for giving money instead of individual services, but I'm doubtful that society would be willing to let people starve if they waste it.[/QUOTE] Well where I'm from, welfare is given out as money. If welfare recipients waste all of their money [I]not[/I] feeding themselves, they, presumably, starve and die. As far as I'm aware, we don't actually have any services in place to prevent that. It doesn't happen though, because surprise surprise, people aren't very game to starve themselves to death.

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012577]Right, so what do you do if you've replaced your welfare programs with a UBI?[/QUOTE] have a safety net and psychiatric services. It's hard to speculate on what the problems would be after that point

[QUOTE=sgman91;53012577]Right, so what do you do if you've replaced your welfare programs with a UBI?[/QUOTE] If it actually becomes a problem, we have the liberty of reintroducing welfare[I]after[/I] we purge the terrible, terrible, godawful welfare programs and implement UBI. These [I]new[/I] welfare programs can work fundamentally differently to the ones of old because a vastly smaller amount of the population would need them, and unlike the current system, it wouldn't need to depend solely on providing food and money. What if welfare was simply a free financial agent to help you manage your costs or something similar? Really, these are questions that are gonna be answered as the UBI trials go forward, but they're not important enough questions to prevent UBI from happening as it is.

I think personal finance management education ought to be a mandatory for everyone when signing up for UBI, not just for school aged kids but adults too. I can't pass judgement on Scotland's public education but I'd bet that its still lightyears ahead of most of the US's. I was lucky with my high school in that it taught personal finance, along with learning about it through scouting and my dad being a seasoned financial expert. Then no one has any excuse for bad spending decisions.

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;53012248]Here's an incentive for you: Toss out your phone, your television, and your computer. Like an occasional drink of alcohol now and again? Got some lying around? Throw that out, too. You like going to the films once or twice a month? Stop doing that. Maybe you like to go hang with some friends at a bar a few times a month. Maybe you just like going out, partying, and getting shit-faced. Maybe spend a night or two a month at a casino, or buying sports tickets, or going to the races. Stop doing all of that. Ever feel so exhausted after a long day at a work that you can't be assed cooking, and so you just go out to eat? Or, hell, even just sometimes stop at a coffee shop and get some coffee? Stop doing all of that, too. Like eating steaks? Or really plentiful and fruitful sides? Appetizers maybe? Shrimp and crab? Stop eating those, too. Now tell me that you still have no incentive to make some extra money. I don't know the extent of this particular UBI's proposed implementation, but the idea of a basic UBI (which, with a 250k grant, is all this could possibly afford) is to cover only the essentials: You pay $600/mo a rent, with $150 in utilities? Throw in a hundred bucks a month for basic groceries, and $60/mo for whatever the cheapest Internet in your area is. That's $960/mo in essentials. Using those numbers, a UBI would likely pay $1000/mo to $1100/mo. Good luck fueling all those luxury habits you'd like to indulge in with just that. You want to eat out, grill a few good steaks, watch a few movies, spent some nights out with friends, or be able to stream Neflix 4k on three devices at once? Congratulations, you just found incentive to work.[/QUOTE] You could secretly move to slovenia with that money and live with above average wage lol.

If they are going to be testing the system in Edinburgh, itgat would be superb. Although if im not mistaken, Edinburgh is pretty expensive so it could be that the amount for UBI may need to rise up a little more...? I'd happily test it.

I don't think UBI will reduce the will to work at all. As I said the greater financial incentives from having a job will mean people will want to work regardless. But there's also the fact that people are in general driven to have a purpose. They will want to do something regardless. I think we'll see a lot more volunteer and goodwill work, where people are working to help others without thinking about financial compensation, as they will have that covered. There will be changes and I don't think UBI will be problem free. But I think it will improve life for all - particularly the most vulnerable in society. Some people were robbed of the chance of an ordinary life and the ability to find good work. This is the best way of leveling the playing field, and no longer forcing people into poverty and hell.

there are many problems that would be solved by the introduction of UBI but watch the US reject it because communism or socialism or something

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;53012035]I'm still unsure if this'll work. Just seems like a way to avoid working if anything.[/QUOTE] This argument is akin to "if we legalise marijuana, everyone would just be stoned all the time" oh ye of little faith in his fellow mang

[QUOTE=Daemon White;53012239]An issue that people can see for UBI is easily: Where does the money come from?[/QUOTE] Where does the trillions we're spending on the defense budget come from? Where did the [b]billion pounds we gave to [I]literal Ulster terrorists[/I][/b] come from? Where is the fifty billion we've gotta pay to the EU going to come from? Where is all the money we're supposedly saving through austerity [B]going?[/B] Where are all the hundreds of billions we're cutting out of the NHS, the libraries, schools, council services, police and fire, water and power, going? [B]WHERE IS THE OTHER MONEY GOING?[/B]

[QUOTE=Chris Morris;53013764]Where does the trillions we're spending on the defense budget come from? Where did the [b]billion pounds we gave to [I]literal Ulster terrorists[/I][/b] come from? Where is the fifty billion we've gotta pay to the EU going to come from? Where is all the money we're supposedly saving through austerity [B]going?[/B] Where are all the hundreds of billions we're cutting out of the NHS, the libraries, schools, council services, police and fire, water and power, going? [B]WHERE IS THE OTHER MONEY GOING?[/B][/QUOTE] National Debt, probably

[QUOTE=Daemon White;53013793]National Debt, probably[/QUOTE] It's not. The debt is just fucking [I]growing.[/I] The Conservatives are literally creating a money black hole and every time I hear "oh, where will the money come" in regards to Labour's policies (they published a fucking financial manifesto breaking it down anyway) I just have to ask "where is the money even GOING?".

[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;53013330]I think personal finance management education ought to be a mandatory for everyone when signing up for UBI, not just for school aged kids but adults too. I can't pass judgement on Scotland's public education but I'd bet that its still lightyears ahead of most of the US's. I was lucky with my high school in that it taught personal finance, along with learning about it through scouting and my dad being a seasoned financial expert. Then no one has any excuse for bad spending decisions.[/QUOTE] It has been a while since I left school but I went to be a good school and about the only thing we were taught was 'here is how an ATM works' which practically everyone already knew. When I got my first paycheck I had no idea what the fuck the National Insurance and pensions rates meant. But I /do/ know about the Scottish Wars of Independence and how Gaelic speakers got fucked over so that is your priorities right there.