Scotland united in curiosity as councils trial universal basic income

[Fulgrim]

I think the biggest problem with the "Why would people even get jobs?" argument is that you can only really put it forward if you have never lived in actual poverty. It's called the welfare trap for a reason.
It's easy to assume that people are inherently lazy and that without the literal threat of starvation or homelessness they just wouldn't bother- but that's really not how it works.
In fact, attitudes like this- that welfare shouldn't be comfortable and should be difficult to live on, on principle, have actually contributed to people not seeking work, it has not motivated them to become employed.

Under the current UK benefit system, getting any kind of employment means you lose all entitlement to all welfare, and have to wait out a [i] six month waiting period before you can claim again if you lose the job[/i], even if it falls through days after singing off.
I currently live on welfare. My situation is slightly more complex on my end due to mental health issues, but the basic premise is the same.

If I went out today and got a job at a care home, or a fast food joint (the only work going around where I live, if anything is going at all) I would likely be making apprenticeship wage- and bringing in less money over all.

Lets ignore the disability aspect and pretend I could work these jobs no trouble. From an entirely pragmatic stand point it does not make sense for me to get one of these jobs, because I would have to work harder, despite bringing in less money, now with the inherent risk that I could be fired when my apprenticeship period ends (this kind of work has a huge staff turnover, so they can avoid ever paying a full wage) leaving me unable to claim welfare and left to fend for myself with literally no income for [b]half a year[/b]. No money means no food, no rent- It's not dramatic to say that it could potentially be a death sentence.

The smartest choice I can make is to stay put and hope for the best. What incentive do I have to risk everything for [i] less pay[/i]?, "people will stop calling you a welfare scrounger!" isn't a compelling reason to risk starvation.

However, with an unconditional UBI- getting one of these min wage jobs would mean I would instantly [b] almost double my income[/b]. Without having to worry about the threat of starvation or homelessness I could take any part time, low paying, job and enjoy the fruits of my work without worrying that doing more work could make me worse off.

And if I lost my job?, that sucks- looks like I wont be getting any new clothes or video games for a while, at least I can still afford to eat my dinner and heat my flat.

Even a part time job would provide a little extra spending money- the chance to put in some effort and reap the rewards of doing so, with absolutely none of the current risks and drawbacks.

People would still work, trust me. They would probably just stop working themselves to death.

[CruelAddict]

[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53011899][URL]https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/25/scotland-universal-basic-income-councils-pilot-scheme[/URL]

This was on my firefox new tab page, neat that it appeared less than a day after this [/QUOTE]

Firefox's news at new tab are incredible, not a single news were not interesting.

[Instant Mix]

[QUOTE=portalcrazy;53013386]there are many problems that would be solved by the introduction of UBI but watch the US reject it because communism or socialism or something[/QUOTE]

I mean I was wondering why many of the arguments against referenced dollars rather than pounds. To reply to a post earlier, education in Scotland is pretty damn good, at least in comparison to the US. It's been a bit shafted in the last couple years by the SNP and the atrocious national 4s and 5s though, but it's still pretty good

In response to the above post, I don't understand what you mean by abusing the system. How can you abuse something that you received with no strings attached? It doesn't many any logical sense. If people want to somehow live off the bare minimum UBI and get pissed, they're going to fairly quickly realise how boring it is, but at least they're buying things and the money, albeit not a lot, is going back to the economy.
If everyone gets the same amount, it's their decision how to spend it. None of this moral high ground wasting money bullshit

[Fulgrim]

[QUOTE=Instant Mix;53015684]I mean I was wondering why many of the arguments against referenced dollars rather than pounds. To reply to a post earlier, education in Scotland is pretty damn good, at least in comparison to the US. It's been a bit shafted in the last couple years by the SNP and the atrocious national 4s and 5s though, but it's still pretty good

In response to the above post, I don't understand what you mean by abusing the system. How can you abuse something that you received with no strings attached? It doesn't many any logical sense. If people want to somehow live off the bare minimum UBI and get pissed, they're going to fairly quickly realise how boring it is, but at least they're buying things and the money, albeit not a lot, is going back to the economy.
If everyone gets the same amount, it's their decision how to spend it. None of this moral high ground wasting money bullshit[/QUOTE]

This.

I don't really see the issue tbh.
Personally, If UBI was implemented I would use the opportunity to get a job and actually start saving up money for the first time in my adult life.
Right now I live a hand to mouth existence, if I got a job, I would just end up living a slightly more miserable and desperate hand to mouth existence.

If some people are genuinely content to live on the kind of money I'm living on, If they really just [i]want[/i] to fart about drinking beer on the sofa their whole lives- that's their choice, and their problem.

I see a much bigger issue with the massive abuse of taxpayer money via political expenses scandals or corporate tax evasion than I do about some chav called Dave pretending to have a bad back for years at a time so he can get 50 odd quid a week to spend buying booze to drink and fags to smoke on the sofa.

At least Dave is contributing to the economy with those purchases, and the country via the tax on those items lol.

[Instant Mix]

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;53012572]Everything i'm mentioning are building blocks, bits and pieces that contribute money

[editline]29th December 2017[/editline]

And they shouldn't let them starve tbh[/QUOTE]

Exactly.
"I've got fuck all money and nearly homeless"
"Well spend your next UBI on food and rent you idiot"
That couldn't be said if they had no form of income or pennies in the form of welfare. There's always the opportunity to get back up from it with UBI, which there isn't with welfare.

Other potential problems people could face that would make them tap into UBI are addictions, such as drugs or gambling or whatever. These could easily be fixed by better drug education, rehabilitation - fuck even legalization, and spending more overall on councilling and mental health services through the NHS.
At that point, they've got all the help they can get and they have no other excuse, and nobody will actively want to starve themselves anyway...

[LAMB SAUCE]

[QUOTE=Harbie;53012503]If you're literally handed enough to get by and blow it all on hookers and coke then maybe it's for the best. (This is assuming you mean it's not enough to survive because they waste it.)

If you mean that it's not enough to survive as is, then I guess it's not a sufficient wage. Likely it'd be adjusted depending on the cost of living of where you are, or maybe you'd be incentivized to move to areas with a cheaper cost of living.

Edit: Didn't see your edit. Well, if they're terrible consumers like that, there's not a lot we can do other than completely nanny state them and deliver food and water to them directly rather than just money. But at that point there's really no excuse. They're just being shitty with their money.[/QUOTE]

Incentive for people on low income to move to cheaper areas.

This is how ghettos are made.

[Harbie]

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;53016997]Incentive for people on low income to move to cheaper areas.

This is how ghettos are made.[/QUOTE]

By cheaper area I don't mean move from an expensive part of LA to a cheap part of LA.

I mean move from LA to a Midwestern state where the cost of living is cheap as shit.

[C O Y O T E]

[QUOTE=_Maverick_;53012035]I'm still unsure if this'll work.
[B]Just seems like a way to avoid working if anything.[/B]

Is there anywhere that has successfully done this?[/QUOTE]

I think you're missing the point of UBI. It's not some kind of magic sum of money that lets you do whatever you want with wreckless abandon and all the time in the world. It's meant to be enough for essentials to live - your rent and food - pretty much nothing else. I fucking hate when people use this "people will just stop working" bullshit reason because have you ever tried living off of government welfare and nothing else? [I]It fucking [B]sucks[/B]. [/I]You can't afford to travel anywhere, can't afford to see a movie, can't afford to go out to eat, can't afford to drive a car, can't afford to go to amusement parks - you can't afford to do [I]shit.[/I] Something broke? Too bad, you're [I]fucked[/I]. Unexpected bill? Too bad - [I]fucked[/I]. Pet got sick? [I]Also fucked.[/I]

You really think that's something people want? To live on the absolute bare existence minimum, with no ability to do anything or go anywhere? And I'm not even accounting for the fact that humans are built to do shit. If we have nothing to do, we get bored. Most people would likely rather have a dead-end job where they at least have something to do rather than sit around at home and do nothing for months on end.

My dad was unemployed for the first 7 years of my life and we lived off of benefits, not government-supplied like UBI but essentially a similar system with some requirements established through unions (pay a fee every month for 2 years, if you lose your job and get 60% of your previous income until you find a new job). It's a safety net that kept my dad's, my mom's and my head above water for a while. But could we do anything? Fuck no. My parents couldn't even afford to get me birthday presents. I wore second-hand clothes.

So no. People won't use this as an excuse to not work. Humans don't work like that. Someone might try to, but it won't be long until they realize how fucking boring it is to have no money left to do [I]anything[/I]. UBI, just like the union-benefits my dad collected, are[I] safety nets[/i] implemented to help people who are unemployed, until they can find a new job. That's it.

[HumanAbyss]

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;53012145]This is the biggest problem, and one fundamentally intractable from the concept. Without incentive to do anything, not only are people not going to do anything, but they're more likely than not just going to fall apart in some capacity. External necessity is absolutely crucial to people and removing that is a horrible idea.[/QUOTE]

Studies of this subject show you're wrong.

[SIRIUS]

[QUOTE=St33m;53011990]I definitely think you need to do something to give incentive to people to get off their ass and create value of some sort.

But otherwise i'm optimistic about the general idea of universal basic income. Hell, the net gain of reduced criminal activity caused by lack of income might just outweigh the costs.[/QUOTE]

Tell that to all the artists who are paid in "exposure"

[vlad]

[QUOTE=Coyoteze;53017128]I think you're missing the point of UBI. It's not some kind of magic sum of money that lets you do whatever you want with wreckless abandon and all the time in the world. It's meant to be enough for essentials to live - your rent and food - pretty much nothing else. I fucking hate when people use this "people will just stop working" bullshit reason because have you ever tried living off of government welfare and nothing else? [I]It fucking [B]sucks[/B]. [/I]You can't afford to travel anywhere, can't afford to see a movie, can't afford to go out to eat, can't afford to drive a car, can't afford to go to amusement parks - you can't afford to do [I]shit.[/I] Something broke? Too bad, you're [I]fucked[/I]. Unexpected bill? Too bad - [I]fucked[/I]. Pet got sick? [I]Also fucked.[/I]

You really think that's something people want? To live on the absolute bare existence minimum, with no ability to do anything or go anywhere? And I'm not even accounting for the fact that humans are built to do shit. If we have nothing to do, we get bored. Most people would likely rather have a dead-end job where they at least have something to do rather than sit around at home and do nothing for months on end.

My dad was unemployed for the first 7 years of my life and we lived off of benefits, not government-supplied like UBI but essentially a similar system with some requirements established through unions (pay a fee every month for 2 years, if you lose your job and get 60% of your previous income until you find a new job). It's a safety net that kept my dad's, my mom's and my head above water for a while. But could we do anything? Fuck no. My parents couldn't even afford to get me birthday presents. I wore second-hand clothes.

So no. People won't use this as an excuse to not work. Humans don't work like that. Someone might try to, but it won't be long until they realize how fucking boring it is to have no money left to do [I]anything[/I]. UBI, just like the union-benefits my dad collected, are[I] safety nets[/i] implemented to help people who are unemployed, until they can find a new job. That's it.[/QUOTE]

I'd happily take UBI over welfare. I've been struggling with my mental health since I was a kid and today I'm stuck on welfare. I've been so stressed out lately due to a major decline in my mental health after trying to go back to school. Unfortunately, going back to school meant I had to either ditch welfare or take up school part time with a job on the side that welfare picked out for me. What would have been 3 years in school became 6 years with the added stress of shuffling between two places to go during the week, as well as a grim reminder that all of my peers completed school years ago and I wouldn't be done with basic education until I hit 28. I'm aware that people do this, but for me it just doesn't work out.

Now I'm trying to recover by introducing healthy habits into my life but the demands welfare puts on me is constantly picking me apart. I'm barely functional in day to day life and I'm expected to go work without being able to care for myself. I'm not trying to avoid working either, I just need time to get back up on my feet so I'll actually be able to. I want to go to school without stressing out about money so I can actually contribute to society in a job that has more meaning than flipping burgers. Instead, I gotta fight the system itself to get the support I need and spend my already spent energy on trivial shit that wouldn't have been an issue with UBI. I gotta spend my time on that shit instead of getting better and going back to school because without it, I wouldn't be able to pay my rent or feed myself. Welfare has become one of the biggest reasons why my mental health is as bad as it is.

[Zupadupadude]

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;53015682]Sounds like a great idea but I'll hope they'll police people abusing this by having a steady income from UBI and making some untaxed money on top of that from unreported employment.

There's people here that literally do not work and just chill and drink beer all day on taxpayer money. I don't know how they do it, but they always manage to come around.

That reminded me of this hilarious video:
[video]https://YouTube.com/watch?v=1XuVYtw9Xu8[/video]

Some great quotes from this video:
Reporter: "do you work?"
Trash: "no. some people work until they're dead, other people stay home until they're dead"

Trash: "if they raised the welfare, we wouldn't have to do as much"

As with everything the government implements, people will abuse it, we need to set up ways to prevent that and help the people that actually deserve it.[/QUOTE]

Abuse is actually not nearly as much of a problem as it seems. In the Netherlands iirc social security fraud amounts to like 1% of the total amount spent on social security, and of that fraud 2/3 is accidental; ie filled in a form wrong or did not know something had to be reported. Our anti-fraud laws mostly punish people who didn't mean to do anything wrong. I find it repulsive that we make the lives of the 99% of people who don't do anything wrong a living hell to prevent a minority from doing bad things. As you are Dutch, I recommend that you read this analysis about the bizarre thought proces in our welfare state: [url]https://decorrespondent.nl/7731/waarom-ik-me-een-sociaaldemocraat-voel-maar-nooit-pvda-heb-gestemd/2938953944619-62ac6a77[/url]

[editline]31st December 2017[/editline]

Also, why should people not be able to have an income on top of the welfare? That is one of the most fundamental flaws of our welfare: if you get a job, your income drops drastically or you have to hand over the money you worked for on top of your welfare. This is called 'the welfare trap'. As the name implies, this system makes people stay on welfare because it is simply not rewarding to work. And also, many experiments have already been carried out where people are given money unconditionally and most people did useful things with the money.

[Zupadupadude]

[QUOTE=thejjokerr;53018283]Good points mate, I guess I was overexaggerating the problem for the netherlands due to misinformation.

I'm not sure if your last paragraph is directed at me, but I'll respond either way: I was talking about people making money on top of their UBI illegally by "zwartwerken" or criminal activities.

Making legal money on top of UBI is great and I'm thinking could be great for entrepreneurs as well since they could have a steady income to survive and take some risk with their plans in starting up a company as well.[/QUOTE]

Sorry mate, this is a topic that makes me a little emotional and I didn't read what you said properly. It's all good.

[Menien Goneld]

UBI can't come soon enough. Not only will it be a necessity in a world where most jobs will be automated, but it would also do wonders for all of the industries that are essentially wealth-gated (at least in the UK).

Right now I'm working a job that pays just over minimum wage. It's part time, and the hours are very low. This means that I do as much overtime as I can, but my wage still fluctuates from month to month. This makes moving out pretty much impossible, because I have no guarantee of any money more than my basic wage, which is not enough for rent and essentials. Even if I thought myself that I would probably earn more than that for the forseeable future, no landlord would want anything to do with it.

Moving out is already a far off goal for me though, I've accepted that. What I'd like to do is the work that I trained to do in Uni. Unfortunately for me to attempt to start my career, I need a car, plus time to practice. Knowing the right people and having the money to move down London have a better chance of getting me somewhere, but even then, I'd need a car. So that's what I'm saving for.

Fuck knows how I'm going to pay for the car while I spend half my time working for free just for a chance at meeting the right people and getting somewhere. Even if I was able to do this, very careful spending + grafting and time management with no financial upsets, plus just having some luck, I would still be behind all of my wealthier peers at Uni because they had the backing of better off parents who could pay for their car, give them a bit of money so they can buy equipment, and even pay their rent to live somewhere like London or Manchester where all the industry professionals are. They had that backing from graduation, and even before that, using their own personal kit while the rest of us make do with renting the battered stuff from the Uni. Realistically pursuing my field of study is a bit of a pipe dream, but with UBI, it's a bit clearer.

[StrawberryClock]

Reposting this from another thread.

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52960120]When I was on unemployment, I was receiving about 1000$ a month (calculated from the time spent on my previous job and salary I was getting) but I had very little incentive to find work or even study. If I found a new job, I would maybe make 30% more money but I would lose ALL the free time I had. Unfortunately, I couldn't go study in college because I would lose my unemployment if I went to study full time. The government basically discouraged me from working or studying because doing either would bring me little benefit compared to staying on unemployment. With UBI I would have actually gone looking for a job because I wouldn't lose the benefits, I would only get richer for putting in more effort.[/QUOTE]