Body Blitz Spa in Toronto denies transgender woman service due to 'male genitalia' policy - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;52353496]I'm just trying to clear the air on why, someone would ask if you're being "sincere or facetious". If you're gonna try and prove a point, you're not helping your argument when you compare reality with hypotheticals.[/QUOTE] Are you insinuating that broad legislation has never been used to allow for arbitrary discrimination?

[QUOTE=Kyle902;52353483]Sounds like you dont have an argument.[/QUOTE] I've already stated my argument, I don't really wish to go in circles. All you've done for at least this page is give irrelevant analogies in the context of a women's only spa having a no-male genitalia policy. [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;52353495]If you're going to bring up a post from an entirely different thread in an attempt to undermine my character instead of responding to my points, then I think we're done here.[/QUOTE] At least own up to your bullshit lmao

People are making some really dumb points in this thread. It has nothing to do with how you fucking identify. If you have a donger and the rules say "No dongers" then you don't get in. If I was a woman in a woman's only spa that has guaranteed me no dongers floppin about everywhere then I would be pretty upset if I saw one.

[QUOTE=Saturn V;52353329]okay what about trans women who for any reason whatsoever cant get srs? they'll just have to suck it up and continue on with their cast-out lives?[/QUOTE] Then it's a disability. The world will try its best to make it easier, but can't build everything around it.

I am going to bed. I really want to close the thread, but history has taught me some will overstep the line. Calm down.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;52353387]What nuance? The only nuance is the one you impose on certain aspects of anatomy yourself. Should a college be allowed to ban people with boobs? What about a doctor banning deformed people from going to his practice?[/QUOTE] TBH, if you don't see any difference between naked people with penises being in a women's only spa and a doctor banning deformed people, then you're so far outside any recognizably consistent worldview that I'm not sure how to even respond. You seem to want to start from your perspective and work form there. I know you don't like it, but western civilization has recognized genitalia as being sexual objects for a very long time (see thousands of years). Generally, naked people don't want their relaxing spa visit to be sexual in any way. They don't want to have to keep an eye on the person with a penis, hoping that they were honest about being trans.

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;52353511]I've already stated my argument, I don't really wish to go in circles. All you've done for at least this page is give irrelevant analogies in the context of a women's only spa having a no-male genitalia policy. [/QUOTE] Your only argument with any substance is that western cultural values allow us to ban male genitalia from places. Your argument justifies discrimation against women in the middle east and arguably justifies the racism in the south of the early 20th century. "Because of culture" is a really dumb argument

[QUOTE=Kyle902;52353509]Are you insinuating that broad legislation has never been used to allow for arbitrary discrimination?[/QUOTE] I never said anything about legislation, go back and read what I wrote. What I'm arguing is that you're putting a hypothetical and reality side by side as your argument, that doesn't help what you're saying.

Can we take a moment to appreciate that this is the first time (At least on this forum) that "trans in bathroom are a problem" has come up as more than a theoretical problem. That's pretty great imo. It shows that otherwise the cases are super low key or not a problem.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52353530]TBH, if you don't see the differences between naked people with penises being in a women's only spa and a doctor banning deformed people, then you're so far outside any recognizably consistent worldview that I'm not sure how to even respond.[/QUOTE] Your only argument is "western values" and if you're truly going to use that then you either believe western culture is inherently superior or that discrimination based on cultural values is okay.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;52353561]Your only argument is "western values" and if you're truly going to use that then you either believe western culture is inherently superior or that discrimination based on cultural values is okay.[/QUOTE] Your only argument is "my values." The entire idea of what constitutes rights and what doesn't is one of cultural values. So please don't act like they're irrelevant.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52353565]Your only argument is "my values."[/QUOTE] Thats demonstrably false though. I havent even stated my values in the thread.

I'm a trans person with no intention of getting SRS and I find this to be completely okay. I don't like vaginas, and as such I accept there are people who do not want to do anything with dicks. I [I]really[/I] do not find the spa discriminatory in the least with this policy.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52353565]Your only argument is "my values." The entire idea of what constitutes rights and what doesn't is one of cultural values. So please don't act like they're irrelevant.[/QUOTE] So do you accept that discriminatory laws in the middle east and elsewhere are justifiable due to culture?

This really isn't complicated. A policy is a policy, and if they don't want cocks flapping about in their spa then they aren't obligated to let in [I]anyone[/I] who is in possession of a dick. You can't go around citing yourself as an exception to a rule just because you're identifying as a woman, and it sure as hell isn't fair to spin this is discriminatory or transphobic. If you don't like that then go ahead and add everyone to your mental shitlists or whatever. This whole thing is absurd and is being blown out of proportion.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;52353633]what do laws in the middle east have to do with a spa in toronto not wanting penises, do religious views from the middle east somehow influence the spas decision to not want penises?[/QUOTE] His argument is based on western values. If discriminatory laws are justifiable due to culture then his argument justifies sharia law. I don't even care that much about the ban he's just making a terrible argument

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;52353657]i think being uncomfortable around penises is a big fucking step from shariah law[/QUOTE] I do too, but arguing that "cultural values" are a valid basis for law is such a dumb and flawed argument that essentially justifies literally anything [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LuaChobo;52353657] oh you are just arguing for the sake of arguing?[/QUOTE] Im arguing for the sake of defeating a bad argument and explaining why its a bad argument. .

[QUOTE=Kyle902;52353670][B]Im arguing for the sake of defeating a bad argument and explaining why its a bad argument.[/B].[/QUOTE] If you're on a zealous quest to defeat the evil argument, please don't use this thread for it, do it in PMs

[QUOTE=Bordellimies;52353692]If you're on a zealous quest to defeat the evil argument, please don't use this thread for it, do it in PMs[/QUOTE] I fail to see how Im offtopic

[QUOTE=Kyle902;52353592]So do you accept that discriminatory laws in the middle east and elsewhere are justifiable due to culture?[/QUOTE] I'm not a relativist. I believe that some cultures are objectively better than others, but that doesn't change the fact that these kinds of arguments are still based on cultural norms and values. This is why these types of arguments will never end. The disagreement is in fundamental values, not some objectively provable fact. The frustrating part is when people like you come along and pretend to be above it all, as if you have some extra-cultural perspective that goes beyond any personal values.

I still dont see why the "cocks flopping about" thing people keep mentioning matters with a bathing suit.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52353700]I'm not a relativist. I believe that some cultures are objectively better than others, but that doesn't change the fact that these kinds of arguments are still based on cultural norms and values. This is why these types of arguments will never end. The disagreement is in fundamental values, not some objectively provable fact. The frustrating part is when people like you come along and pretend to be above it all, as if you have some extra-cultural perspective that goes beyond any personal values.[/QUOTE] So your argument is based on your belief in the inherent superiority of western culture?

I actually know somebody who is MtF trans and really dislikes phallic objects, let alone male genitalia. I'm not gonna ask them but for some reason I have the feeling they would be totally fine with this no-penis rule, if they them self could not enter with a bathing suit on they would probably just not go there to begin with simple at that. There are probably other woman that have similar problems.

Western culture does need to loosen up about nudity but until then, a vaginas only spa can say they don't want a dick hanging around. I can't walk into the typically cleaner female shower facilities with my dick because people would be grossed out about it. It has nothing to do with what you identify as. You can identify as a female but you going into the girls shower stalls and walking around naked with your dick hanging around would be extremely inappropriate around children. It's a bit different from restrooms because you don't generally walk around fully nude in the bathroom. You can probably get away with using whichever bathroom you want if your face remotely looks like the bathrooms designation. But for all intents-and-purposes, a M-F trans person -may- still have the anatomy of a male, and to allow a male body into a spa establishment that exclusively caters to anatomical women, the women would probably be uncomfortable around you. It's unfortunate to trans people that haven't or can't transition yet, but I don't think their policy is similar to not allowing other races/genders/etc from using your establishment because they're not walking around bare-ass naked in front of people that are wondering why there's a dick in their all vagina spa. I think culture does need to loosen up on nudity, we shouldn't care much about it. Fear of nudity is definitely a cultural thing, but it's not going to change overnight. Maybe requiring her and other M-F trans with dicks to wear baggy swimming trunks would be a fair compromise.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;52353716]bathing suits wont hide everyones junk, and you'd probably get the same "ITS TRANSPHOBIC" arguments from people who think requiring people to wear bathing suits is still bad[/QUOTE] You aren't wrong on the first part. But I still think if it can be properly hidden there's no reason transwomen shouldn't be allowed in. But that's just me

[QUOTE=OvB;52353774] I think culture does need to loosen up on nudity, we shouldn't care much about it. Fear of nudity is definitely a cultural thing, but it's not going to change overnight.[/QUOTE] But wouldn't pushing this change inevitably make people uncomfortable? You can't normalize the idea of women with dicks without people being bothered by it, but if you choose to avoid the issue by just banning pre-op transgender women from women-only spas you are only keeping the status quo that women with dicks aren't considered women enough to hang in the naked women zone because their bodies aren't up to the task. Also, damn fellas, have you ever seen a vagina? They're way grosser than dicks, and I'm saying this as a straight man. You have a floppy sausage vs something that feels like the insides of a very warm eggplant.

[QUOTE=UntouchedShadow;52353627]This really isn't complicated. [B]A policy is a policy[/B], and if they don't want cocks flapping about in their spa then they aren't obligated to let in [I]anyone[/I] who is in possession of a dick. You can't go around citing yourself as an exception to a rule just because you're identifying as a woman, and it sure as hell isn't fair to spin this is discriminatory or transphobic. If you don't like that then go ahead and add everyone to your mental shitlists or whatever. This whole thing is absurd and is being blown out of proportion.[/QUOTE] This is a really shitty argument. Just because something is a policy doesn't mean people can't take issue with it. Are people not allowed to question why it is a policy or whether it should be?

As another MtF trans individual I can understand hating your own genitalia, but at the same time I don't why would that make you uncomfortable with other peoples genitalia. I suppose its a mild reminder of your own situation but I dont think its somethinf that warrants making you physically ill

Also I realize I might be a bit late on this, but earlier in the thread I saw this argument [QUOTE=Kyle902;52353338]If we could ban people based on parts of their biology then it wpuld be equally legal to ban someone for having black skin or squinty eyes. So even without a specific transgender protection bill Im positive that numerous other anti discrimination laws would disallow this practice[/QUOTE] I don't think a spa needs to operate with the same exact principles as something like a gas station or a restaurant or a grocery store. People don't walk around naked in those places, whereas in spas it's likely that people are naked, possibly sitting close to each other in rooms like saunas or having their bodies be massaged/waxed where the spa workers have to work in close proximity to private areas. Male and female sex organs are completely different from each other, so it doesn't make sense to use an argument saying "you could have places banning people for slightly different eyes or darker skin", it really is not the same thing at all. [editline]13th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Dave_Parker;52353921]But what if the pre-op trans woman still looks like a man at first glance?[/QUOTE] There are pre-op MtF women who look very feminine and there are cis women who look very masculine, either on purpose or simply because of genetics.

[QUOTE=01271;52353550]Can we take a moment to appreciate that this is the first time (At least on this forum) that "trans in bathroom are a problem" has come up as more than a theoretical problem. That's pretty great imo. It shows that otherwise the cases are super low key or not a problem.[/QUOTE] Not really. This isn't a bathroom and the same stuff doesn't apply. If you see somebody's genitals in the bathroom something has gone horribly wrong