Students lose marks for using 'he': Universities penalise undergrads for 'offensive' gender phrase - Sensationalist Headlines

this is about not using 'he' or 'she' when the person could be either, it makes perfect sense i work in medical software, and the number of times people will write 'he' when they mean a doctor because they're making the assumption that doctors are male or that a nurse is a 'she' because "only women are nurses" is staggering and stupid

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52052401]Very unfortunate that people are falling for a Rupert Murdoch paywall article and assuming that SJWs are at hand and it isn't just professionalism as a professional university [URL="https://web.archive.org/web/20140714235019/https://www2.stetson.edu/secure/history/hy10302/nongenderlang.html"]that started roughly around 1995.[/URL][/QUOTE] Whenever a thread like this comes up like 90% of the replies are people glancing the title, and then skipping the entire thread to make a snarky one liner about being triggered or SJWs. Some of them even look like their feelings were hurt by the article :v:

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52052401]Very unfortunate that people are falling for a Rupert Murdoch paywall article and assuming that SJWs are at hand and it isn't just professionalism as a professional university [URL="https://web.archive.org/web/20140714235019/https://www2.stetson.edu/secure/history/hy10302/nongenderlang.html"]that started roughly around 1995.[/URL][/QUOTE] [quote]“Most universities have just incorporated it in their general way of things. So it is a little bit odd that they have made it regulatory. I just think that is a step too far. Taking this regulatory, punitive attitude to the whole business of gender neutrality is a backward step. What it does is set up resistance. It will make people annoyed, not want to comply, when I think the majority of students would incorporate these sorts of approaches anyway.”[/quote]

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52052409]Gendered pronouns are a part of the English language, they're not unprofessional, if anything, gender neutral pronouns are the new thing, and as far as I know, they are not in the rules of language yet.[/QUOTE] no, it is entirely unprofessional

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52052419]no, it is entirely unprofessional[/QUOTE] Okay, I'm convinced now, thanks.

I don't see a problem with this. Pretty sure I was taught to use gender neutral terms in primary school.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52052409]Gendered pronouns are a part of the English language, they're not unprofessional, if anything, gender neutral pronouns are the new thing, and as far as I know, they are not in the rules of language yet.[/QUOTE] I'm not arguing the use of gendered pronouns but if you are writing and don't know someone's gender, avoid assuming because assuming makes you look unprofessional. Language evolves a lot, and gender neutral pronouns aren't a new thing. Thee thou thy, and all that.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. At least from one source. Your first source says "gender-sensitive" and your second source says "gender-offensive." That's a massive difference. Being sensitive and careful with your words is the correct way to write an essay. If I was writing about George Washington and I called him "her," I'd get marked down for that. Why is it any different for a person that has an unknown or neutral gender? Or any words that are simply gender-specific for no reason? This also isn't anything new. I was taught to avoid gender-specific terms when I took english too. [QUOTE=Bradyns;52052265]Looks like those students can't quote Neil Armstrong.[/QUOTE] Unlikely. Quotes are quotes. Your quotes don't necessarily have to be objective or even correct.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52052423]Okay, I'm convinced now, thanks.[/QUOTE] you didn't read the article did you this isn't about replacing gendered pronouns when you know the gender, it's about not assuming he/she when you don't know if the person is a he/she this is common sense.

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52052419]no, it is entirely unprofessional[/QUOTE] No, it is nitpicking at something that does not hurt anyone because at the end of the day it are just words.

[QUOTE=Cyan_Husky;52052431]This seems perfectly reasonable to me. At least from one source. Your first source says "gender-sensitive" and your second source says "gender-offensive." That's a massive difference. Being sensitive and careful with your words is the correct way to write an essay. If I was writing about George Washington and I called him "her," I'd get marked down for that. Why is it any different for a person that has an unknown or neutral gender? Or any words that are simply gender-specific for no reason? This also isn't anything new. I was taught to avoid gender-specific terms when I took english too. Unlikely. Quotes are quotes. Your quotes don't necessarily have to be objective or even correct.[/QUOTE] This will probably come up as a problem some time in the future, I can likely see the grammar he/she being automated scanning of has x written this. yes penalise x points.

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052441]No, it is nitpicking at something that does not hurt anyone because at the end of the day it are just words.[/QUOTE] Words matter when you're writing a university level essay.

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052441]No, it is nitpicking at something that does not hurt anyone because at the end of the day it are just words.[/QUOTE] if you think words are just words and that means you can say anything and still be professional then have fun holding a job that requires professionalism

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052441]No, it is nitpicking at something that does not hurt anyone because at the end of the day it are just words.[/QUOTE] Yeah dude you're right. What even is professionalism anyway? Why bother? Actually, why stop there? Why bother having standards for anything? At the end of the day it's just words and stuff.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52052401]Very unfortunate that people are falling for a Rupert Murdoch paywall article and assuming that SJWs are at hand and it isn't just professionalism as a professional university [URL="https://web.archive.org/web/20140714235019/https://www2.stetson.edu/secure/history/hy10302/nongenderlang.html"]that started roughly around 1995.[/URL][/QUOTE] People have been complaining about PC culture since the 90s though. But things like this seemingly only apply to Britain or the USA - never heard this type of complaint in Ireland for the most part.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52052304]Here we go. Avoiding words like mankind is incredibly standard in University writing essays. I have a book all about that encourages you to use gender neutral words in order to appear as objective as possible. Instead of mankind, pick better words such as humankind. Of course a lot of people here are exaggerating and thinking that you can't quote people anymore of they use words like "mankind", that's not how writing works. As for the rest of the garbage such as using "he" and "she"? [url]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-man-up-students-may-lose-marks-for-using-he-t356wkdrq[/url] Again, incredibly standard but over-sensationalized. I encourage everyone to do their own research on the subject instead of relying on daily mail or a trash guardian article that doesn't even link to the source paper.[/QUOTE] Can confirm its a preferred stylistic choice for essays. Kind of like preferred citation styles. Shouldn't bother anyone who isn't trying to be offended.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52052445]Words matter when you're writing a university level essay.[/QUOTE] When it comes to gender pronouns it should not matter [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52052453]if you think words are just words and that means you can say anything and still be professional then have fun holding a job that requires professionalism[/QUOTE] As someone who has been working in the IT world for 7 years i can say that using gender pronouns has nothing to do with professionalism. [QUOTE=Crumpet;52052454]Yeah dude you're right. What even is professionalism anyway? Why bother? Actually, why stop there? Why bother having standards for anything? At the end of the day it's just words and stuff.[/QUOTE] Nice strawman you propping up there.

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052468]When it comes to gender pronouns it should not matter[/QUOTE] Why not? When you use a gendered pronoun where a non-gendered one is more appropriate, you're implying that the gender of the subject is relevant when in fact it isn't.

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052468]When it comes to gender pronouns it should not matter As someone who has been working in the IT world for 7 years i can say that using gender pronouns has nothing to do with professionalism. Nice strawman you propping up there.[/QUOTE] I was highlighting your terrible logic. And what does working in IT have to do with writing academic papers? You apply different skillsets to different areas, I thought that was a given.

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052468]When it comes to gender pronouns it should not matter As someone who has been working in the IT world for 7 years i can say that using gender pronouns has nothing to do with professionalism. [/QUOTE] did you actually read the article if you think the problem is just using gender pronouns, you did not read the article

And my university lost all of its diversity funding for suggesting that faculty not throw explicitly-Christian holiday parties and try to bill the university for them... Anyway, as a writer, English needs a good gender-neutral pronoun for referring to things you don't know the gender of. I'm not sure why we've settled for "he" for so long, when so many other languages have one. English isn't gendered in the same way the Romance languages are, so it's interesting to see that that's stuck around.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;52052304]Here we go. Avoiding words like mankind is incredibly standard in University writing essays. I have a book all about that encourages you to use gender neutral words in order to appear as objective as possible. Instead of mankind, pick better words such as humankind. Of course a lot of people here are exaggerating and thinking that you can't quote people anymore of they use words like "mankind", that's not how writing works. As for the rest of the garbage such as using "he" and "she"? [url]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/dont-man-up-students-may-lose-marks-for-using-he-t356wkdrq[/url] Again, incredibly standard but over-sensationalized. I encourage everyone to do their own research on the subject instead of relying on daily mail or a trash guardian article that doesn't even link to the source paper.[/QUOTE] I was just about to say that this has been in practice LOOOOONG before this whole gender debate even started. Freshman year in high school I was taught that using only 'he' or 'she' when writing essays was incorrect and that 'he/she' or 'they' was more apt because you're not just writing to any singular gender. Never knew about the whole 'mankind' thing though, that seems a little silly to be honest, but this isn't creative writing we're talking about here so it's whatever.

[QUOTE=El Periodista;52052505]And my university lost all of its diversity funding for suggesting that faculty not throw explicitly-Christian holiday parties and try to bill the university for them... Also Sex (education) Week, the case for which changed the way the student programming fee had been collected for half a century. Our legislature is exceedingly conservative. Anyway, as a writer, English needs a good gender-neutral pronoun for referring to things you don't know the gender of. I'm not sure why we've settled for "he" for so long, when so many other languages have one. English isn't gendered in the same way the Romance languages are, so it's interesting to see that that's stuck around.[/QUOTE] "They", "them", "their" etc. serve this purpose perfectly well.

Arguing that using gender-neutral language is dumb because you don't use it in IT is like arguing that learning a sailor's hitch is dumb because you don't use it in food service.

[QUOTE=Levithan;52052378]Using "they" is pretty much the perfect solution.[/QUOTE] Not perfect. There's no distinction between plural and singular.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;52052514]Not perfect. There's no distinction between plural and singular.[/QUOTE] It should be clear from the context.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52052511]"They", "them", "their" etc. serve this purpose perfectly well.[/QUOTE] Not quite. They and its derivatives are, in academic and professional situations, exclusively plural. It doesn't make a ton of sense to have our only neuter-gender pronouns refer to both an individual and a group, and the subject of that requires clarifying far too often for it to be really useful. It's very important to have a pronoun that agrees in number with its subject. The "They" family works as a practical substitute, but it's far from perfect. I'm not saying this is something that would really have an effect on practical spoken language, but it'd be a nice convenience for those of us who write more than just the occasional term paper. (Right now, in all the major harbraces and handbooks, "he" is the mandatory single-subject pronoun for subjects of unknown gender, which also doesn't make a ton of sense.)

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52052482]I was highlighting your terrible logic.[/QUOTE] No you were setting up a strawman by implying that i would advocate for no standards what so ever: [QUOTE=Crumpet;52052454] Why bother having standards for anything? At the end of the day it's just words and stuff.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Crumpet;52052482]And what does working in IT have to do with writing academic papers? You apply different skillsets to different areas, I thought that was a given.[/QUOTE] See: [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52052453]if you think words are just words and that means you can say anything and still be professional [B]then have fun holding a job that requires professionalism[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052528]No you were setting up a strawman by implying that i would advocate for no standards what so ever: See:[/QUOTE] mate you said that words are just words i'll say it again, have fun thinking you can say anything and hold a job that requires professionalism it's pretty staggering that you think you can say anything while supposedly working for 7 years

[QUOTE=TheNukeNL;52052441]No, it is nitpicking at something that does not hurt anyone because at the end of the day it are just words.[/QUOTE] The irony is that TheNukeNL used a very poor choice of words to convey that some words don't matter but some do.