Mazda is in no rush to make EVs - Sensationalist Headlines

Mazda's problem is cash. They are a smaller company that can't afford to innovate in a frontier like EVs, and instead survives by carving out a niche and doing it well. (Too bad they're let down by their terrible dealership network.) To everyone arguing about the virtues of sports cars, consider that [url=http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2016/10/sports-car-market-after-the-baby-boomers/#more-1434889]this is a market that is very quickly dying,[/url] and Mazda only dabbles in it because they are an established player with highly notable past successes (RX-7, MX-5, etc.). Sorry to say, Mazda is not exactly in a state to make cars people won't buy, let alone design their own EV.

[QUOTE=TestECull;51937218]You kiddin'? They've made the best sports car for nigh on 30 years now, one that anyone can afford, that's reliable, handles great, lasts well, easy to service, fuel miserly, all that good stuff. Hell, the MX-5 is one of....at this point, maybe two or three....MY2017 cars I would happily purchase, simply because it is the best damn sports car on the market and it's properly affordable. What the MX-5 lacks in raw goodyear-destroying brute force it makes up for by being the quintessential British sports car [i]that actually fucking works[/i]. Icing on the cake? If you still want rear tire life to drop five percentage points every time you weld your right foot to the floor there's more ways to achieve that than there are different brands of tires to annihilate. Everything from massive turbos to LS-9 V8 swaps, hell there's probably a BEV conversion somewhere in the world. If I were to go this route with a Miata it'd probably be a mild LS-1 + T-56 manual swap, 300-odd horsepower is more than enough in a car that light.[/QUOTE] Be aware that soft top MX-5's are kind of shit if you don't know about this one thing. I don't know if it's still the same way now, but the roof drains for water have tubes that go inside the car, then at the bottom make a fucking 90 degree turn before emptying out. They get blocked up super easy, and eventually leak. Inside the car. The entire back half of the car, especially the trunk, will rust completely through under the carpet and you'll never know it Other than that they're great cars so long as you don't get into a wreck at more than 40mph

[QUOTE=abcpea;51938117]i make a joke and everyone gets super upset, and somehow I'm the insecure one?[/QUOTE] Because it's a dumb joke. What does a "girls car" even mean? Pink with hello kitty stickers plastered all over it? A shitload of driver assists? Help me out here because I really don't get it.

[QUOTE=werrek;51938567]I would never want an EV. No sound, no gears to change, its the most boring commuter tool. Mazda's direct injection technology and lightweight cars make up for it. Plus, EV's are very harmful to the environment to produce. Those batteries are way worse than a 40mpg ICE engine over its lifetime of 25 years.[/QUOTE] You can call it boring if you want. But the environmental point you make is a load of rubbish. You can almost entirely recycle batteries. You can't recycle fuel. I would argue than EVs are less boring. They are much more responsive than any ICE can ever be. It makes the car more of an extension of yourself rather than the car being a tool that you use. The transition to EVs requires a lot of r&d, and is quite financially intensive. If they don't commit a lot of resources to it then they will lose their ability to compete, and will rely on simply buying drive trains from Tesla or others. If they made a proper EV sports car this early on they could probably sell a lot.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;51938992]Responsiveness is literally one the least important pleasures of driving a car. It's about its history, it's craftsmanship, it's overall "feel", the internal design, its output, the list goes on. There's really not much room to argue here. EVs have decades to go before they reach ICE level of pleasure on the road.[/QUOTE] I like EV's and can see that it's going to be the way forward in the future, but one of the things I love to do with my car is tinker with it, learn how it works and try things out. Something that's becoming increasingly harder for someone with a bit more mechanic-savvy than electronics savvy that some modern day cars require you to have. I'll happily own an EV in the future - provided I could have a purely analogue (or as close to it I can get) to fuck around with and have fun.

[QUOTE=Morgen;51938971]You can call it boring if you want. But the environmental point you make is a load of rubbish. You can almost entirely recycle batteries. You can't recycle fuel. I would argue than EVs are less boring. They are much more responsive than any ICE can ever be. It makes the car more of an extension of yourself rather than the car being a tool that you use. The transition to EVs requires a lot of r&d, and is quite financially intensive. If they don't commit a lot of resources to it then they will lose their ability to compete, and will rely on simply buying drive trains from Tesla or others. If they made a proper EV sports car this early on they could probably sell a lot.[/QUOTE] I would argue otherwise. While I'm not in any way trying to bash EV's (I'm sure I'll get one as a daily driver at some point), you just cannot get the same level of sound, smell and pleasure from an EV. To me, I find it to be the complete opposite of what you just described. EV's are more of a kitchen appliance than a "car" if compared to an ICE. The powerband is mostly linear, there's no revving of the engine, no sound, no smell of oil and fuel, no cracks and pops from the exhaust, and the steering is electronically assisted instead of hydraulically assisted. In an EV, it's an effortless glide of power, which is perfect - it's just that it takes some of the pleasure of driving a car away. Not to mention manual transmissions as well, which is absolutely brilliant in keeping you and the car connected. This is why I totally understand where Mazda is going with their statement. If you want driver orientated pleasure, you'll have to stick with ICE's, at least for now. If you want an effortless car that takes you from A-B without any surprises, take the EV.

[QUOTE=Jackpody;51939492]I would argue otherwise. While I'm not in any way trying to bash EV's (I'm sure I'll get one as a daily driver at some point), you just cannot get the same level of sound, smell and pleasure from an EV. To me, I find it to be the complete opposite of what you just described. EV's are more of a kitchen appliance than a "car" if compared to an ICE. The powerband is mostly linear, there's no revving of the engine, no sound, no smell of oil and fuel, no cracks and pops from the exhaust, and the steering is electronically assisted instead of hydraulically assisted. In an EV, it's an effortless glide of power, which is perfect - it's just that it takes some of the pleasure of driving a car away. Not to mention manual transmissions as well, which is absolutely brilliant in keeping you and the car connected. This is why I totally understand where Mazda is going with their statement. If you want driver orientated pleasure, you'll have to stick with ICE's, at least for now. If you want an effortless car that takes you from A-B without any surprises, take the EV.[/QUOTE] I think maybe it's down to preference and you might see a more EV group of car people emerge. Personally I hate the smell of oil, and fuel. Going to the fuel station is annoying, and often if you don't wear gloves your hands will smell of the stuff. In an EV if you put your foot down then you do get a bit of noise coming from it, though I agree it might not be as nice as engine noise. I drive a shitty manaul car and find it generally annoying. I drove an EV and had so much more fun with it. The car was moving at full power before my foot even finished moving. I just can't get that in an ICE. I just don't understand why anyone would want input lag on anything? Maybe it's because I haven't been driving all that long.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;51938992]Responsiveness is literally one the least important pleasures of driving a car. [/QUOTE] what the fuck lol i can agree on the internal design and overall feel, but fucking "its about history, craftsmanship" and then pull that "responsiveness is the least important feature of driving a car"? get out

[QUOTE=Marbalo;51938992]Responsiveness is literally one the least important pleasures of driving a car. It's about its history, it's craftsmanship, it's overall "feel", the internal design, its output, the list goes on. There's really not much room to argue here. EVs have decades to go before they reach ICE level of pleasure on the road.[/QUOTE] Responsiveness isn't important? I'd argue it's one of the more important things. Loads of people complain about how gutless many modern cars feel because manufacturers detune the throttle response. When you press on the throttle and the engine just does what it's told without hesitation, it feels good. And most importantly, is more fun to drive. Seriously, this probably isn't the most pretentious thing I've ever read but it ranks up there.

[QUOTE=Morgen;51939582]I think maybe it's down to preference and you might see a more EV group of car people emerge. Personally I hate the smell of oil, and fuel. Going to the fuel station is annoying, and often if you don't wear gloves your hands will smell of the stuff. In an EV if you put your foot down then you do get a bit of noise coming from it, though I agree it might not be as nice as engine noise. I drive a shitty manaul car and find it generally annoying. I drove an EV and had so much more fun with it. The car was moving at full power before my foot even finished moving. I just can't get that in an ICE. I just don't understand why anyone would want input lag on anything? Maybe it's because I haven't been driving all that long.[/QUOTE] It is just a preference. I'd argue a real petrolhead loves the smell of oil and fuel in the morning and fixes his car with a hammer, not a computer. It's why EV's are a bit of a let down to most DYI'ers like myself. I've been in a Tesla Model X and there's a definitive input lag from when you press the accelerator to the car actually moving, I'd imagine it's related to the fact that it's controlled by wire and not by rod. Kind of like an early 90's car with an ECU that calculates the gearing and the throttle by the accelerator sensor. Takes a moment for it to figure it all out before it goes forwards. You don't get that with an analogue ICE (aka anything made before 1989 or so) or with a higher end ICE. I honestly think you're basing your views way too much on your own experience with ICE vs EV, which from what I can understand is very limited. If you don't have much to compare to, then you'll end up with unfair comparisons and I'd imagine that's what is happening here since you're comparing your own car, which you described as "a shitty manual" vs. a new EV. Totally unfair comparison and it doesn't really help your credibility when posting things about EV's all the time.

[QUOTE=Marbalo;51938992]Responsiveness is literally one the least important pleasures of driving a car. It's about its history, it's craftsmanship, it's overall "feel", the internal design, its output, the list goes on. There's really not much room to argue here. EVs have decades to go before they reach ICE level of pleasure on the road.[/QUOTE] Responsiveness the least important? Would you honestly drive something that handles like a snail or drive a car that responds easily at the turn of the steering wheel?

I have never heard anyone say an ICE is more responsive than an EV, with the exception of the few models that fake lag to be more like an ICE. I haven't been in a Model X but I have test driven a Model S and a Leaf. Both responded instantly. My manual ICE isn't even a year old. It's not a sports car but neither is the Leaf (or even the Model S). I don't doubt that higher end ICEs will be more responsive than my car but I doubt any of them are more responsive than an EV. I'm not sure it's even technically possible?

[QUOTE=MechaKat;51940418]Responsiveness the least important? Would you honestly drive something that handles like a snail or drive a car that responds easily at the turn of the steering wheel?[/QUOTE] i think he was getting at throttle response, theres can be fun in a non linear powerband like heavily turbocharged cars. steering feedback doesnt really help EVs anyway because theyre all electric steer and tend to weigh quite a bit more than gasoline cars in its class

I preferred the days when ICE stood for In-Car Entertainment, and an engine was called an engine. I can respect Mazda for coming out and saying this, rather than following the current trend of making terribly designed terribly performing electric cars like most other auto manufacturers.

[QUOTE=Morgen;51940431]I have never heard anyone say an ICE is more responsive than an EV, with the exception of the few models that fake lag to be more like an ICE. I haven't been in a Model X but I have test driven a Model S and a Leaf. Both responded instantly. My manual ICE isn't even a year old. It's not a sports car but neither is the Leaf (or even the Model S). I don't doubt that higher end ICEs will be more responsive than my car but I doubt any of them are more responsive than an EV. I'm not sure it's even technically possible?[/QUOTE] There are plenty of reasons why an EV wouldn't have instant throttle response which the Model X I test drove at launch definitely did not have. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic car as an appliance, I'm not just bashing it for being an electric car. The lack of response was most likely because it uses a sensor, not a rod like most cars of older date. When you push the pedal, it has to calculate how much you pushed it down, then calculate how much power goes to the electric motor before it moves. There's probably more going on as well, but I'm not experienced enough with EV to go into details with that. The calculations cause a small delay. Any ICE of older age doesn't get this lack because there's no computer to calculate. The pedal is actually hooked up to the throttle body and the injection system, meaning you get an instant response. They're trying to do the same nowadays at Alfa Romeo where they're using an entirely seperate system JUST for the throttle control.

You all seem to be forgetting about Mazda's EV... The 2012 Demio EV and the 2013 Demio EV with Range Extender. [IMG]https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/mazda-rotary-revived-as-demio-ev-range-extender-video-photo-gallery-73640_1.jpg[/IMG] Also to note that the Range Extender was a Rotary Engine. And it had a limited run, only 100 were leased.

[QUOTE=Jackpody;51940549]The lack of response was most likely because it uses a sensor, not a rod like most cars of older date. When you push the pedal, it has to calculate how much you pushed it down, then calculate how much power goes to the electric motor before it moves... The calculations cause a small delay. Any ICE of older age doesn't get this lack because there's no computer to calculate. The pedal is actually hooked up to the throttle body and the injection system, meaning you get an instant response.[/QUOTE] Electronic throttle control has existed for decades at this point, and is the norm for many cars on the road. Any delay caused by the transmission of an electric signal through the throttle system is in the range of fractions of fractions of a second. Even fighter jets, some of the most maneuverable and responsive vehicles of all time, use such controls. Whereas the throttle response of a petrol car is roughly the result of its power/torque delivery curves, the throttle response of an electric car is the result of the voltage to the wheels. Because they're powered by electric motors, this means they effectively produce max power at [i]0 rpm[/i]. As an extreme example, [url=https://youtu.be/7rVTIpS5zb4]have this video of an electric car smoking a GTR off the line.[/url] These kinds of videos are dime a dozen on the internet for a reason. For enthusiasts concerned about subjective things like "responsiveness" and "driver involvement," it will take some time before EV tech becomes affordable enough for it to be seen in vehicles they consider fun. There's a reason cars like the BMW i8, the closest current thing to a fun EV, are all prohibitively expensive for most people. It won't be that way forever, though, so enjoy your petrol miatas while you still can. One day [i]IT'LL BE ELECTRIC MUAHAHAHAHAHA[/i]

[QUOTE=Jackpody;51940549]There are plenty of reasons why an EV wouldn't have instant throttle response which the Model X I test drove at launch definitely did not have. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic car as an appliance, I'm not just bashing it for being an electric car. The lack of response was most likely because it uses a sensor, not a rod like most cars of older date. When you push the pedal, it has to calculate how much you pushed it down, then calculate how much power goes to the electric motor before it moves. There's probably more going on as well, but I'm not experienced enough with EV to go into details with that. The calculations cause a small delay. Any ICE of older age doesn't get this lack because there's no computer to calculate. The pedal is actually hooked up to the throttle body and the injection system, meaning you get an instant response. They're trying to do the same nowadays at Alfa Romeo where they're using an entirely seperate system JUST for the throttle control.[/QUOTE] The calculations simply aren't perceivable with how fast the processors are these days. An EV has no moving parts prior to the motor to worry about like an ICE does. Can you perceive the lag between when you push a button on your (wired) keyboard and when the letter appears? There's also no transmission to shift through which helps responsiveness.

Mazda's been working a lot with Toyota as of late, wouldn't be surprised if at some point the government forces Mazda to start making EV's (I hope they don't, but they probably will), they'll work with or license from Toyota. Could be another company rather than Toyota, I haven't paid much attention as of late but beyond hybrids I think don't think Toyota is doing much either. I'm fine with Mazda doing what they do best, making cars that are fun to drive. My Dad has a 1.5L Mazda3 hatch and my Mom a CX-5 and they're great little cars. If they would sell the Mazda6 Wagon in the US I'd probably get one myself after I graduate, even better if I could get a diesel one. Comparatively they aren't a huge company, so I'd guess they don't have the biggest R&D budget on the block, so they have to be really calculated with what they want to focus on. So far, that seems to be to develop a well rounded fleet of standard/high-volume ICE cars that are fun to drive. If they don't have the money to develop Rotary halo cars, you can be sure as shit they don't have the money to develop an Electric Vehicle that will sell just as poorly as the halo cars even with government subsidies. You can say that EV's are the future and that Mazda is being short sighted, but they still have a Ford-shaped hole that they're trying to dig out of. You can't have an all-EV fleet 15 years from now if you're bankrupt in 5.

[QUOTE=Ogris;51938914]Because it's a dumb joke. What does a "girls car" even mean? Pink with hello kitty stickers plastered all over it? A shitload of driver assists? Help me out here because I really don't get it.[/QUOTE] [img]http://images.hgmsites.net/med/mazda-mx-5-miata_100182240_m.jpg[/img] It's usually called a girls car because of how soft and friendly it looks. There's no sharp edges or aggressive lines and the headlights give it this dopey innocent appearance. Meanwhile a stereotypical guys car is just [img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/74/62/7a7462acb1f3539f797637f5168fa2ad.jpg[/img] [B]BIG BEEFY AMERICAN MUSCLE ANGRY HEADLIGHTS STRAIGHT PIPE V8 USA USA USA[/B] Basically some people think you if you don't drive a car that strokes your masculinity you're after someone else's :v:

More rotaries please

[QUOTE=Jackpody;51940549]There are plenty of reasons why an EV wouldn't have instant throttle response which the Model X I test drove at launch definitely did not have. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fantastic car as an appliance, I'm not just bashing it for being an electric car. The lack of response was most likely because it uses a sensor, not a rod like most cars of older date. When you push the pedal, it has to calculate how much you pushed it down, then calculate how much power goes to the electric motor before it moves. There's probably more going on as well, but I'm not experienced enough with EV to go into details with that. The calculations cause a small delay. Any ICE of older age doesn't get this lack because there's no computer to calculate. The pedal is actually hooked up to the throttle body and the injection system, meaning you get an instant response. They're trying to do the same nowadays at Alfa Romeo where they're using an entirely seperate system JUST for the throttle control.[/QUOTE] A lot of throttle response delay is artificial. The throttle response in my Ford Fusion is in Drive is far more laid back than when it's in sport mode, which feels stupid amounts more direct. It's not because of the calculations. The hardware is far more precise than a desktop PC when it comes to timing. Any sort of delay or hangup is unacceptable. So computations are relatively simple. Stock vehicles are tuned for comfortable everyday driving. So if you accidentally jab on the throttle for a brief second, the computer ignores it, so it doesn't scare the soccer mom driving it. Until it realizes that's actually what you wanted and then it starts going. Fortunately, since it's just software, it can be changed.

[QUOTE=Demache;51941426]A lot of throttle response delay is artificial. The throttle response in my Ford Fusion is in Drive is far more laid back than when it's in sport mode, which feels stupid amounts more direct. It's not because of the calculations. The hardware is far more precise than a desktop PC when it comes to timing. Any sort of delay or hangup is unacceptable. So computations are relatively simple. Stock vehicles are tuned for comfortable everyday driving. So if you accidentally jab on the throttle for a brief second, the computer ignores it, so it doesn't scare the soccer mom driving it. Until it realizes that's actually what you wanted and then it starts going. Fortunately, since it's just software, it can be changed.[/QUOTE] My girlfriends Civic has a delayed throttle response with the Eco mode to save gas which she keeps on. I personally find it really distracting and doesn't instill confidence that the car will do what I want when I need it to, so I turn it off the moment I get in. Most people never even notice.

[QUOTE=Ajacks;51941800]My girlfriends Civic has a delayed throttle response with the Eco mode to save gas which she keeps on. I personally find it really distracting and doesn't instill confidence that the car will do what I want when I need it to, so I turn it off the moment I get in. Most people never even notice.[/QUOTE] I do spend a lot of time in sport myself. It doesn't affect the MPGs that much if your conservative with acceleration. But when I do need to hammer it down, it's nice to know it's there. Drive feels like it's more for the ecoboost motors because drive doesn't even let the 2.5L Mazda engine hit it's power band unless your WOT. But that's getting off topic. Point being, it's not because of the computer. Beyond the manufacturer "dumbing it down".

I drove a Peugeot 607 with a jammed throttle body. It was so gogged up it was stuck quite a bit. You threw the pedal on the ground, had time to lift your foot up and then it revved up. It had a lag of more than a second. That was painful.. I was only diagnosting it and I hope it was the throttle body, otherwise that would have been a really bad software on the ECU. The owner didn't really care about that fault, he had something else pop the CEL every few months or so. I mean, a responsive car is nice, a turbo makes it worse sometimes, but a stuck throttle body (Electronic, a lot of carbon built up or smth. like that) can be a literal pain when driving. You want to get a smooth response but you get literal lag on an NA engine. You may think that a big turbo might react like that but something that should be responsive... never. Maneuvering it into the garage was a pain, I can't imagine how he handled it day-to-day.

[QUOTE=abcpea;51937525]girl's car[/QUOTE] That's why you get the NB and onwards, and even the NA is fine. I never see any girls driving miatas though.