The Chinese Room Fires Almost Entire Staff- "We're done with doing walking sims and story stuff" - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52729883]I think it's absolutely fair to say that Dear Esther isn't a game. An interactive story piece set in a virtual world, sort of like an art gallery. Just cause it's an application, runs in a 3D world and requires controller input doesn't necessarily mean it's a game, imo. I don't think you're doing Dear Esther any favours either to call it a game, or judge it as one either.[/QUOTE] pretty much this, it isn't a bad for something to not be a game

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52729873]Correct me if I'm wrong, I've never played Gone Home, only watched some gameplay years ago - but do you ever progress in Gone Home (get to a new area etc?) You explore this one house and the experience comes from reading the notes and piecing together elments in your head by looking at stuff and that's it?[/QUOTE] No, you can't even enter the home from the beginning. There's probably a dozen different keys, combinations, and other clues you need to locate in order to access the full house. I didn't even find all the rooms on my first playthrough. [QUOTE=DinoJesus;52729912]I love a game with a compelling story but I take issue with walking sims for frankly not being super engaging. They tend to shy away from character interaction with the player. It's weird because there's a pretty stable niche of people (myself included) who fucking adore text based games with lite gameplay elements, and a lot of fan overlap between series. Stuff like Phoenix Wright, 999, hotel dusk, Ghost Trick, Danganronpa, etc. They tell really entertaining stories, keep you hooked, and require way less asset creation. I guess I'm spiteful that many indie devs want to make walking sims instead of text based games. It's like they're putting in extra work in the areas that don't matter and building the story around what they got instead of focusing on the stories first. Atmosphere is great and all but it'll only take a story so far.[/QUOTE] Walking sims ARE about characters, though. They go through full arcs and are often pretty heavily text-based. The only difference is that instead of delivering the story via clicking through dialogue boxes, you discover this information by exploring your environment.

[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52723819]If there's a reason that I'd shy away from the term "walking simulator", it would be that it's [i]too[/i] specific. Papers, Please and other games like it fall under the same umbrella without any actual walking, I think something like "environmental storytelling" is a more general and accurate descriptor. This genre and "Soulslikes" are the ones I'm waiting for a definitive name for.[/QUOTE] How is Papers, Please a "walking simulator"? There's [i]actual challenge.[/i] There are actual decisions to make and areas in which you can fail if you're not good enough. Papers, Please is an actual game.

[QUOTE=geel9;52729942]How is Papers, Please a "walking simulator"? There's [i]actual challenge.[/i] There are actual decisions to make and areas in which you can fail if you're not good enough. Papers, Please is an actual game.[/QUOTE] You don't even walk in paper's please... I'd say it's a casual game with puzzle and management elements. [editline]29th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52729941]No, you can't even enter the home from the beginning. There's probably a dozen different keys, combinations, and other clues you need to locate in order to access the full house. I didn't even find all the rooms on my first playthrough.[/QUOTE] Sounds like a game to me then.

[QUOTE=geel9;52729942]How is Papers, Please a "walking simulator"? There's [i]actual challenge.[/i] There are actual decisions to make and areas in which you can fail if you're not good enough. Papers, Please is an actual game.[/QUOTE] You can't really call it a puzzle game, since you have an in-game instruction manual telling you all the solutions, and it doesn't really fall into any other conventional genre, so what is it then? Walking sims can have decisions (Firewatch, Oxenfree), and they can have "challenge". What you define as challenge will change with the game, whether it's progressing to the ending (Gone Home), getting an ideal ending (Oxenfree), or both (Firewatch).

[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52729967]You can't really call it a puzzle game, since you have an in-game instruction manual telling you all the solutions, and it doesn't really fall into any other conventional genre, so what is it then?[/QUOTE] A casual management game.

[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52729967]You can't really call it a puzzle game, since you have an in-game instruction manual telling you all the solutions, and it doesn't really fall into any other conventional genre, so what is it then? Walking sims can have decisions (Firewatch, Oxenfree), and they can have "challenge". What you define as challenge will change with the game, whether it's progressing to the ending (Gone Home), getting an ideal ending (Oxenfree), or both (Firewatch).[/QUOTE] The challenge is the limited time with which you have to handle each individual's application for entry, along with the management of the limited amount of money you have (which increases if you're better at the game). Have you even played the game?

I don't know how you can defend Gone Home if you've played other walking Sims. I may not enjoy walking sims much but I can tell the difference between a good one and a bad one. If you're trying to sell people on the genre I'd avoid recommending it. The whole game takes place inside one ugly, basicly textured house that tries to evoke 90s nostalgia instead of having any unique environment design. The atmosphere and story are at odds, and I'm not exaggerating when I say nothing of any importance happens in the story the entire game. It's way too short, so short infact that you can accidentally stumble onto the ending by walking into a wall right at the very beginning. The only character you're supposed to sympathize for makes awful, selfish decisions. I could honestly rattle on all day about all the problems behind the game and why it didn't deserve the praise and pedestal it got. The hate for walking sims exploded after people started celebrating it.

[QUOTE=geel9;52730005]The challenge is the limited time with which you have to handle each individual's application for entry, along with the management of the limited amount of money you have (which increases if you're better at the game). Have you even played the game?[/QUOTE] I've never said that Papers, Please doesn't have challenge. I [i]am[/i] saying that "challenge" is subjective to a degree and that Papers, Please doesn't necessarily have "more" or "less" than other games I group it with.

[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52730034]I've never said that Papers, Please doesn't have challenge. I [i]am[/i] saying that "challenge" is subjective to a degree and that Papers, Please doesn't necessarily have "more" or "less" than other games I group it with.[/QUOTE] It's a [I]lot[/I] more challenging than Dear Esther.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52730043]It's a [I]lot[/I] more challenging than Dear Esther.[/QUOTE] Idk man, it's easy to "beat" but harder than most to digest. I'm that won't be a popular answer, but there is no denying that it was experimental for it's time and a pioneer for both walking sims and the modern indie movement, and that it's end goals lay far apart from what games up until that point were aiming for. EDIT: There are "challenging" books out there that anyone who is literate can read, but much fewer will appreciate. It's the same with movies: anyone can stare at the screen, but not everyone can tell you exactly what the film was about. This concept has definitely been the exception to the rule in gaming, but as the medium matures I'd like to see that to cease being the case. It's important to note that gaming is still on the cusp of infancy, and that all of these games are experimenting with what the interactive format has to offer. I'm not arguing that all these games are "good" (I don't particularly care for Firewatch), but they are doing more to push the boundaries of gaming than something like the new Doom which is merely content to master it's established genre.

[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52730055]Idk man, it's easy to "beat" but harder than most to digest. I'm that won't be a popular answer, but there is no denying that it was experimental for it's time and a pioneer for both walking sims and the modern indie movement, and that it's end goals lay far apart from what games up until that point were aiming for.[/QUOTE] I don't see how you can compare interpreting a story and papers please in terms of challenge. Papers please is legitimately one of the most stressful experimental games I've played.

[QUOTE=DinoJesus;52730078]I don't see how you can compare interpreting a story and papers please in terms of challenge. Papers please is legitimately one of the most stressful experimental games I've played.[/QUOTE] This. It isn't fair to say that Papers Please can be grouped with other walking simulators (when it isn't even a walking simulator in the first place), and it's straight out wrong to say that Dear Esther is more difficult than Papers Please. Interpreting a story isn't a mechanic, it's not gameplay. [editline]29th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52730055]Idk man, it's easy to "beat" but harder than most to digest. I'm that won't be a popular answer, but there is no denying that it was experimental for it's time and a pioneer for both walking sims and the modern indie movement, and that it's end goals lay far apart from what games up until that point were aiming for. EDIT: There are "challenging" books out there that anyone who is literate can read, but much fewer will appreciate. It's the same with movies: anyone can stare at the screen, but not everyone can tell you exactly what the film was about. This concept has definitely been the exception to the rule in gaming, but as the medium matures I'd like to see that to cease being the case. It's important to note that gaming is still on the cusp of infancy, and that all of these games are experimenting with what the interactive format has to offer. I'm not arguing that all these games are "good" (I don't particularly care for Firewatch), but they are doing more to push the boundaries of gaming than something like the new Doom which is merely content to master it's established genre.[/QUOTE] You're talking about Dear Esther as if it was presented as a non-interactive medium - which is absolutely fair, because there's nothing to talk about regarding it's gameplay and mechanics. Dear Esther doesn't actually push any bounderies when it comes to video-games, it does at most challenge the idea of what a game is and proposes the question of how little gameplay and mechanics something can have and still be called a game. Perhaps it pushes the boundaries of story-telling.

[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52729778]This is exactly what you do in Gone Home. You collect clues and solve puzzles.[/QUOTE] Alright, but I was merely answering a question, not taking a stance. But fine, if Gone Home has puzzles to solve, then it is a puzzle game. On the other hand, Dear Ester, where all you do is walk from point A to point B on a highly linear path, with no opportunity to fail, and the only challenge is trying to decipher what the story means, is not a game. If you call Dear Ester a game, then the act of reading and interpreting a book is also a game because the book offers the exact same challenge. Even as someone who liked Dear Ester and love The Beginner's Guide, I just can't call them games. Something not being considered a game isn't really a bad thing and it doesn't detract from the experience. [QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52730055]There are "challenging" books out there that anyone who is literate can read, but much fewer will appreciate. It's the same with movies: anyone can stare at the screen, but not everyone can tell you exactly what the film was about. This concept has definitely been the exception to the rule in gaming, but as the medium matures I'd like to see that to cease being the case.[/QUOTE] Many of the most popular games are already like this and have been for some time. Just look at the entirety of the fighting game genre, anyone who can push buttons can play and enjoy a fighting game but few can tell you exactly how the mechanics work or what the appropriate strategies are. Strategy games, MOBAs, and class based shooters are in the same boat.

[QUOTE=Amakir;52729266]Is Myst a walking sim?[/QUOTE] Yes and no. People would never think to call it a walking sim because it's from a time where the player didn't [I]walk[/I]: they teleported from screen to screen to move. However, those games (puzzle/exploration games with 360 degree view) are the [U]direct[/U] descendants to walking simulators, which appeared exactly because video games had reached a point where game performance was able to balance between player fluidity in a full 3D environment, and detailed scenery. Therefore, it's not impossible that some of those older games could basically be walking sims. [I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerzone"]Amerzone[/URL][/I] (1999), if it were remade today for example, would probably qualify as a walking sim, since it has relatively few puzzles, the player travels very long distances on foot (which goes very fast when teleporting from screen to screen), and the game focuses the player's attention on its environment and story. Also, the guys who made Myst released a game recently, [URL="http://store.steampowered.com/app/306760/"]Obduction[/URL], which is pretty much a walking simulator.

[QUOTE=Jacen;52730422]Alright, but I was merely answering a question, not taking a stance. But fine, if Gone Home has puzzles to solve, then it is a puzzle game. On the other hand, Dear Ester, where all you do is walk from point A to point B on a highly linear path, with no opportunity to fail, and the only challenge is trying to decipher what the story means, is not a game. If you call Dear Ester a game, then the act of reading and interpreting a book is also a game because the book offers the exact same challenge. Even as someone who liked Dear Ester and love The Beginner's Guide, I just can't call them games. Something not being considered a game isn't really a bad thing and it doesn't detract from the experience. Many of the most popular games are already like this and have been for some time. Just look at the entirety of the fighting game genre, anyone who can push buttons can play and enjoy a fighting game but few can tell you exactly how the mechanics work or what the appropriate strategies are. Strategy games, MOBAs, and class based shooters are in the same boat.[/QUOTE] Fun fact you can actually fall and die in Dear Ester, get a fail state and start back from a cheakpoint. More seriously games like What remains of Edith Finch do have fleshed out gameplay and some sections of the story are told through gameplay. I feel alot of people who say walking sims don't have gameplay just didn't play any of them and watched 10m of Dear Ester. Saying all games classified as a walking sim don't have gameplay is straight up false, and the ones with actually no interaction beside moving around are an exception. I won't spoil it but if I had to recommend a "walkim sim" it'd be WREF, if you can enjoy family stories. A lot of sections in the game relie on gameplay to get their point across. Again the "is it a game??" Discussion is pointless. It is a worthy product to buy for you or not is only what matters, and to many people it is.