Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=SunsetTable;53140066]This chart terrifies me in other ways,namely, we have majors near on 90% women. Combined with the increasing drop out rate of teenage boys from highschool; the two conflating scare me.[/QUOTE] It gets worse when you realize there's a male suicide epidemic, young people have poor home-owning prospects, and marriages are likely to fall apart. Social trust is lower, people don't believe in their institutions, mental illness is on the rise. It's a bad time for the social fabric and democracy

Additionally, "I don't tolerate intolerance" is a dangerous mindset because [i]you're defining what 'intolerance' is.[/i] It becomes very easy when you subscribe to this mindset to just label anything you dislike as "intolerant." Eventually, you're not really going to tolerate anything besides what you already agree with. The very point of "tolerance" is that it [i]allows for radical changes to the way we operate.[/i] Silencing that automatically is how you end up with a society that refuses to change -- until it has to, far quicker than it should. Just like with free speech, tolerance only really works when you aren't allowed to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't worthy of tolerance. Yes, that means disgusting people are going to spread a disgusting agenda, but it also means you're free to spread your own agenda, even against a government that you yourself may not like.

[QUOTE=geel9;53140077]Additionally, "I don't tolerate intolerance" is a dangerous mindset because [i]you're defining what 'intolerance' is.[/i] It becomes very easy when you subscribe to this mindset to just label anything you dislike as "intolerant." Eventually, you're not really going to tolerate anything besides what you already agree with. The very point of "tolerance" is that it [i]allows for radical changes to the way we operate.[/i] Silencing that automatically is how you end up with a society that refuses to change -- until it has to, far quicker than it should. Just like with free speech, tolerance only really works when you aren't allowed to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't worthy of tolerance. Yes, that means disgusting people are going to spread a disgusting agenda, but it also means you're free to spread your own agenda, even against a government that you yourself may not like.[/QUOTE] I'm going to continue to not tolerate Nazis. [QUOTE=geel9;53140067] An important second note to what I said is that it's incredibly dangerous to just start labeling all conservatives as "fascist." Conservative ideology isn't inherently fascist; rather, we're experiencing -- in the US -- a growing number of fascists hiding [I]behind[/I] conservatism and manipulating conservatives to their benefit.[/QUOTE] It's not just conservatives who happen to be fascist, the entire leadership right now is suspect. But this is getting off topic.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53140138]I'm going to continue to not tolerate Nazis.[/QUOTE] :godwin: [QUOTE=SunsetTable;53140066]This chart terrifies me in other ways,namely, we have majors near on 90% women. Combined with the increasing drop out rate of teenage boys from highschool; the two conflating scare me.[/QUOTE] For fear of being accused of spitting biofacts, there is definitely a gender-based bias in being interested in certain fields that extends beyond our society, I wouldn't read too much into that aspect.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53140138]I'm going to continue to not tolerate [i]people I deem to be[/i] Nazis.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I know dude. You just responded to my criticism of your mindset with a blind restatement of your mindset. How disappointing.

[QUOTE=phygon;53140160]:godwin:[/QUOTE] I'm not comparing anyone to nazis. It's upsetting that I still have to be concerned about nazis. [QUOTE=geel9;53140162]Yeah, I know dude. You just responded to my criticism of your mindset with a blind restatement of your mindset. How disappointing.[/QUOTE] It's a paradox that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance]society[/url] has to grapple with one way or another. I don't think either of us is wrong, we just have different lines in the sand.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53140183] It's a paradox that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance]society[/url] has to grapple with one way or another. I don't think either of us is wrong, we just have different lines in the sand.[/QUOTE] That's interesting considering you're defending the firing of a person because they stepped over your individual line in the sand. Sure seems like you and Google both seem to agree that your stance is the inarguably correct one. Because arguing with it gets you fired.

[QUOTE=geel9;53140186]That's interesting considering you're defending the firing of a person because they stepped over your individual line in the sand. Sure seems like you and Google both seem to agree that your stance is the inarguably correct one. Because arguing with it gets you fired.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure I disagreed with the firing back when it happened? It's been a while. [QUOTE=geel9;53140195]Well if your stance is that you heavily disagree with him but don't agree that he should've been fired from Google then I apologize.[/QUOTE] Yeah essentially.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53140193]I'm pretty sure I disagreed with the firing back when it happened? It's been a while.[/QUOTE] Well if your stance is that you heavily disagree with him but don't agree that he should've been fired from Google then I apologize.

[editline]i misread the chart, don't post about this or i'll find where you live[/editline]

[QUOTE=Lambeth;53140013]I don't like how diversity is being framed here because A) I seriously doubt these "diversity hires" were hired just because they're black or whatever. If there's any proof of this I'm willing to be corrected B) I feel like the logical conclusion of Damore's complaints is to uh start hiring conservatives? for political diversity?[/QUOTE] Well, as I mentioned prior, as the lawsuit alleges that was indeed going on. Though again, that's an allegation. [QUOTE=Lambeth;53140034]I'm not sure why I should respect conservative opinions since they sound borderline fascist nowadays.[/QUOTE] Shouldn't be firing for it either unless they're literally advocating for violence against other people or actively harassing them. Neither of these things are in the memo. [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/OCJOV8s.png[/IMG]

Basically, how could a PM put this guy on a team with a female engineer, knowing what tension will be there? By publishing his political opinions, he's outed himself as someone who can't work on a team with other people because of their gender. Dumbass should've just kept his mouth shut

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140353]Basically, how could a PM put this guy on a team with a female engineer, knowing what tension will be there? By publishing his political opinions, he's outed himself as someone who can't work on a team with other people because of their gender. Dumbass should've just kept his mouth shut[/QUOTE] Perhaps by looking at how he's handled the previous teams he was on during his time at Google.

[QUOTE=geel9;53140357]Perhaps by looking at how he's handled the previous teams he was on during his time at Google.[/QUOTE] But what he's said is out there now; there's a tension about knowing your coworker is a misogynist that you can't overcome via simple professionalism. Plus, Company culture is a big deal at software companies; it's obvious this guy doesn't fit in with Google's culture. He really should just have kept his opinions to himself

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140363]your coworker is a misogynist[/QUOTE] Please find where he expresses views that are actually misogynistic.

[QUOTE=geel9;53140364]Please find where he expresses views that are actually misogynistic.[/QUOTE] When he said that there are biological differences leading men to certain fields and women to others. This is a conservative/misogynistic viewpoint.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140363]But what he's said is out there now; there's a tension about knowing your coworker is a misogynist that you can't overcome via simple professionalism. Plus, Company culture is a big deal at software companies; it's obvious this guy doesn't fit in with Google's culture. He really should just have kept his opinions to himself[/QUOTE] And there's a difference between sharing opinions, versus broadcasting to the whole company that 3/5 of its female employees don't deserve to work there. [QUOTE=sgman91;53138192]I would be interested in exactly which parts were considered "so harmful, discriminator, and disruptive" as to be outside of protections.[/QUOTE] Stellar reasoning.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140365]When he said that there are biological differences leading men to certain fields and women to others. This is a conservative/misogynistic viewpoint.[/QUOTE] So the idea that men and women might be naturally interested in different things is sexist against... only women? It can't be that it's a relatively neutral statement that doesn't really have any [i]value judgement[/i] which would be required for bigotry?

[QUOTE=geel9;53140370]So the idea that men and women might be naturally interested in different things is sexist against... only women? It can't be that it's a relatively neutral statement that doesn't really have any [i]value judgement[/i] which would be required for bigotry?[/QUOTE] It's simply a false belief used to justify a status quo in which women are discriminated against in employment and have cultural stereotypes pushed on them as children. The fact is that women used to dominate the software development/CS field LONG before men did. Until about the 1980s, software development was seen as "beneath" men, who stuck to hardware. When Personal computers started making their way into every home and the demand for software development went up (increasing wages), then women were told not to go into it anymore. It has nothing to do with our biology and everything to do with bullshit cultural stereotypes and sexism.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140379]It's simply a false belief used to justify a status quo in which women are discriminated against in employment and have cultural stereotypes pushed on them as children. The fact is that women used to dominate the software development/CS field LONG before men did. Until about the 1980s, software development was seen as "beneath" men, who stuck to hardware. When Personal computers started making their way into every home and the demand for software development went up (increasing wages), then women were told not to go into it anymore. It has nothing to do with our biology and everything to do with bullshit cultural stereotypes and sexism.[/QUOTE] At the same time, [i]what being a programmer is[/i] has majorly changed over the decades and the expectations placed upon software engineers are vastly different. Engineers -- especially at companies like Google -- are expected to be "rockstars" and these companies offer a very poor work/life balance. We already know that women tend to choose jobs that have a more flexible work/life balance and tend to prioritize that over salary. This is not an unpredictable result. Being a software engineer [i]fucking sucks[/i], but it pays well. That's the kind of job that men tend to do more than women.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140379]It's simply a false belief used to justify a status quo in which women are discriminated against in employment and have cultural stereotypes pushed on them as children. The fact is that women used to dominate the software development/CS field LONG before men did. Until about the 1980s, software development was seen as "beneath" men, who stuck to hardware. When Personal computers started making their way into every home and the demand for software development went up (increasing wages), then women were told not to go into it anymore. It has nothing to do with our biology and everything to do with bullshit cultural stereotypes and sexism.[/QUOTE] Can I get some citations on that? I'd be interested to read about this.

Further, [i]tending to be drawn to something[/i] or not (as Damore speaks on) is not the same as [i]individuals being competent.[/i] If men tend to be far more drawn towards being software engineers, that doesn't actually imply that any given woman [i]who was drawn to being a software engineer[/i] is less competent.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140353]Basically, how could a PM put this guy on a team with a female engineer, knowing what tension will be there? By publishing his political opinions, he's outed himself as someone who can't work on a team with other people because of their gender. Dumbass should've just kept his mouth shut[/QUOTE] On the one hand, yes, there could be issues if he was assigned to teammates who were offended by what he said. On the other hand, he never said that they were inherently worse at their job. He cited research indicating [I]different[/I] strengths and weaknesses, and specifically highlighted how those could be leveraged to the betterment of the company. If someone goes out of their way to interpret it as misogyny when he says 'there's research to suggest women might not be interested in the same things as men', that's not his fault. Given the other content revealed of the Google internal forums, it's not like political opinions are off-limits. If someone had posted that they don't think conservatives make for good employees, I find it [i]highly[/i] unlikely that they would be fired for outing themselves as someone who can't work on a team with other people because of their politics. Extremely unlikely.

[QUOTE=catbarf;53140493]On the one hand, yes, there could be issues if he was assigned to teammates who were offended by what he said. On the other hand, he never said that they were inherently worse at their job. He cited research indicating [I]different[/I] strengths and weaknesses, and specifically highlighted how those could be leveraged to the betterment of the company. If someone goes out of their way to interpret it as misogyny when he says 'there's research to suggest women might not be interested in the same things as men', that's not his fault. Given the other content revealed of the Google internal forums, it's not like political opinions are off-limits. If someone had posted that they don't think conservatives make for good employees, I find it [i]highly[/i] unlikely that they would be fired for outing themselves as someone who can't work on a team with other people because of their politics. Extremely unlikely.[/QUOTE] "politics" of offense typically don't include being put on a team with someone who said that 3/5 of women working for the company didn't deserve their job.

I would rather a leader of a team be aware of natural strengths and differences to better utilize them instead of believing in a vulgar kind of relativism or social constructivism that gives no competitive advantage, just political points There really isn't a human society in recent history without a gendered division of labor. It's an evolutionary advantage as human offspring take more investment. You would [url=https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061207-sex-humans.html]beat a society[/url] without it.

[QUOTE=bitches;53140500]"politics" of offense typically don't include being put on a team with someone who said that 3/5 of women working for the company didn't deserve their job.[/QUOTE] That would only inherently cause a problem if the women on the team thought they didn't deserve the job. If you know you deserved the job, then you would also know that he wasn't talking about you. That's assuming, of course, that they weren't offended at the very thought of having the discussion.

[editline]hhohmburgers[/editline] Fuck me I need to actually read posts before I respond. Sorry about this, I'm heading to bed.

[QUOTE=proboardslol;53140365]When he said that there are biological differences leading men to certain fields and women to others. This is a conservative/misogynistic viewpoint.[/QUOTE] How is it a conservative/misogynistic viewpoint?

[QUOTE=Boaraes;53140544]How is it a conservative/misogynistic viewpoint?[/QUOTE] You have to back your biotruths with more than just incidental evidence, if you wanna avoid it being a misogynistic viewpoint gl

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;53140560]You have to back your biotruths with more than just incidental evidence, if you wanna avoid it being a misogynistic viewpoint gl[/QUOTE] There's a couple important points tho 1. Women tends towards the mean of IQ whereas men vary more. You'll see more men at bottom and high rungs of society 2. Men use gray matter more than white matter, which means men are more tunnel visioned and task focused 3. Men have a smaller hippocampus 4. Men are more aggressive and competitive due to testosterone 5. Due to sexual biology men do not balance work and family like women do. [url]https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders[/url] All these characteristics reward men in a competitive labor market, especially technical job markets that demand a lot from your life in lifelong learning and many hours None of these are political or controversial claims. You don't need to be an unreformed reactionary to see that people are more complex than just blank slates