Report: Shooter opens fire on GOP congressmen at baseball practice
247 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Foogooman;52359102]I'm not condoning the shooters particular actions by the way, I'm just saying that I'd be lying if I wasn't a little bit happy about the message it sends to the other members of congress.[/QUOTE]
There is nothing to be happy about regarding this.
[QUOTE=Perrine;52359132]through terrorism[/QUOTE]
When nothing else works, what are you to do? It's how our country was born
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359138]When nothing else works, what are you to do? It's how our country was born[/QUOTE]
not kill innocent people
[QUOTE=Perrine;52359141]not kill innocent people[/QUOTE]
Well tell that to the 23 million people about to lose coverage
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359145]Well tell that to the 23 million people about to lose coverage[/QUOTE]
this justifies shooting rampages yes
[QUOTE=Perrine;52359148]this justifies shooting rampages yes[/QUOTE]
Look, what I'm saying is the guy is justified in his feelings over the events because of his and his friend's health situation. This asshole went out and targeted people who he thinks are directly and partly responsible for what WILL kill innocent people, even ones who's only crime was being born with a pre-existing condition, because they're putting money over people. That's just as absurd to me as a dude fighting against those people with violence, maybe more so
[QUOTE=Foogooman;52359133]For my best friend, the health care changes they've been trying to push through are what would do it. She's a successful young business woman who has picked herself up from a horrific upbringing and became a productive member of society. She's bipolar, and her medication treats it well. It's still not a sure thing but if that bill passes with the portions about pre-existing conditions intact, she will be uninsurable, and her medication is extremely expensive ($1000 per month for just one of them). Between the depression and mania, there's no way she will be able to maintain a stable life, and her mania could cause her to accidently kill herself.[/QUOTE]
I think healthcare in general has been neglected for situations like this, but I don't think you should feel pleased that extreme violence is sending a message to your perceived enemies.
These "enemies" were still people with families that were shot while playing a casual game. All this does is escalate tensions and can lead to both sides upping the odds. There is a reason that the Caning of Charles Sumner is studied in history, and that is to show snapshots of what led to civil war.
Also Trump isn't pleased with the current healthcare bill aswell in a way that you might agree with.
[quote]Trump made clear multiple times that he was pleased that the Senate negotiations appeared to be moving away from where the House version of the repeal and replace effort ended up, according to three sources familiar with the meeting.
Trump told the lawmakers that the House bill didn't go far enough in protecting individuals in the marketplace -- and appeared to use that as his rationale for why he has ambiguously called twice for the Senate to "add more money" to the bill.
The positive comments about the Senate plan tracks with Trump telling reporters during the meeting that the Senate should spend more on the bill to make it "generous, kind (and) with heart."[/quote]
[url]http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/politics/trump-senators-health-care-white-house-meeting/index.html[/url]
I got pre-existing conditions too but I'll never excuse or condone the attempted murder of politicians. I'm not a lunatic. This is akin to people saying something like:
"Not saying the Manchester bombing wasn't a tragedy, but it's good that people are finally waking up to how bad those people are."
You're not making it better, in fact, you're making it worse. [I]You[/I] are the catalyst to violence when you don't speak against it. All it does is breed divisiveness and side-taking.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359154]Look, what I'm saying is the guy is justified in his feelings over the events because of his and his friend's health situation. This asshole went out and targeted people who he thinks are directly and partly responsible for what WILL kill innocent people, even ones who's only crime was being born with a pre-existing condition, because they're putting money over people. That's just as absurd to me as a dude fighting against those people with violence, maybe more so[/QUOTE]
Glad I'm not the only one who sees things this way. I don't understand why something tantamount to class genocide, in the name of nothing more than personal profit for an oligarchy, isn't seen as a big deal just because the politicians themselves aren't going out and shooting people to make it happen.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359145]Well tell that to the 23 million people about to lose coverage[/QUOTE]
hi I'm about to lose coverage.
still not gonna shoot someone!
I hate this country as much as the next person and if I had the money and ability to get out you sure as hell bet that I would but what I cherish about myself is that I have like. You know. A shred of humanity somewhere in me. I don't want to be some kind of symbol of terror or violent retaliation, I wanna be [I]better[/I] than the people who are trying to fuck me over. What kinda useless garbage would I get done if I go around committing terrorist acts?
Like nothing???
I don't understand how people can think this is okay at all. Doesn't matter what "side" you're on, you don't justify attempted murder just because the person is a dumbass. This isn't the civil war, this isn't the wild west, this isn't a period of time where that's excusable.
It's dumb.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359138]When nothing else works, what are you to do? It's how our country was born[/QUOTE]
Sure. Now that, according to you, political violence is acceptable, what are you going to do when people start shooting for Democrats? What are you going to do when the divide gets larger and we are thrust into a civil war?
There's a reason that violence is the absolute stupidest means you can use for political advancement. It's because not everyone agrees with your politics, and they are just as capable of producing just as much violence as you are. In the end, you end up with a lot of dead bodies on both sides.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359154]Look, what I'm saying is the guy is justified in his feelings over the events because of his and his friend's health situation. This asshole went out and targeted people who he thinks are directly and partly responsible for what WILL kill innocent people, even ones who's only crime was being born with a pre-existing condition, because they're putting money over people. That's just as absurd to me as a dude fighting against those people with violence, maybe more so[/QUOTE]
I get where you're going with this but [I]slinging bullets against unarmed civilians in public is still not the answer.[/I] We are not a tyrannical society; we're corrupt up the butthole, but you don't see military police enforcing curfews. You don't see cameras on every corner keeping an eye on you, and you most certainly don't have to fear the cops breaking down your door at any given moment. If we lived in an environment which resembled the ghettoes of 1940s Nazi Germany, fine, but obviously we do not.
If we're going to maintain a society where we want to follow things by the book, then we need to keep going by the book.
[QUOTE=Foogooman;52359167]I don't understand why something tantamount to class genocide, in the name of nothing more than personal profit for an oligarchy[/QUOTE]
Your view of government sounds dangerously unrealistic.
Like, the GOP isn't trying to personally kill you, calm down a little bit.
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359154]Look, what I'm saying is the guy is justified in his feelings over the events because of his and his friend's health situation. This asshole went out and targeted people who he thinks are directly and partly responsible for what WILL kill innocent people, even ones who's only crime was being born with a pre-existing condition, because they're putting money over people. That's just as absurd to me as a dude fighting against those people with violence, maybe more so[/QUOTE]
:dig:
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52359162]I think that TheTalon is saying, is when you back people into a corner and put them into a life or death situation regarding their medical needs, what do they have to lose?
Like a scared animal, they'll become violent and irrational.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I think the dude has very good reason to be angry but that's not a justification for violence
I'm not justifying this in any way, but isn't there a right to bear arms because of the possible case of an oppressive government and violation of the constitution by government?
[QUOTE=Crooky14;52359208]I'm not justifying this in any way, but isn't there a right to bear arms because of the possible case of an oppressive government and violation of the constitution by government?[/QUOTE]
afaik it's a right to bear arms in case they like come at you with weapons, not with awful healthcare plans
doesn't justify attempted murder though, nah.
Let me put it another way.
If a guy was the reason you lost the ability to pay for the things you needed to stay alive, would you be terribly saddened if that guy got banged up a little? That's how some people are viewing this event
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52359202]Yeah I think the dude has very good reason to be angry but that's not a justification for violence[/QUOTE]
At some point, however, there [i]is[/i] a justification for violence.
When is that point? I have no idea. But there comes a time when your government simply does not represent the people, and the only solution the people have is a violent revolt, and I think we're moving more towards that every day.
Is shooting a bunch of congressman okay? Not at all. But I'm not surprised by this. Things are getting worse, and the country is being destabilized. This is the result of destabilization.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52359227]afaik it's a right to bear arms in case they like come at you with weapons, not with awful healthcare plans
doesn't justify attempted murder though, nah.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I know I wasn't justifying it like I said
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359230]Let me put it another way.
If a guy was the reason you lost the ability to pay for the things you needed to stay alive, would you be terribly saddened if that guy got banged up a little? That's how some people are viewing this event[/QUOTE]
banged up a little isn't equal to getting shot at!
he was clearly aiming to kill, not aiming to spook 'em.
[QUOTE=Crooky14;52359208]I'm not justifying this in any way, but isn't there a right to bear arms because of the possible case of an oppressive government and violation of the constitution by government?[/QUOTE]
That's for when the army is kicking down your door. Not bad politics. American's don't know what real oppression is because it hasn't happened in recent memory. (Not since the civil rights movement, maybe?)
I guys I usually follow, who I gain insight with weapons and what's happening during the syrian war, thought he was above this extreme partisan politics. Immediatly says leftists have become ISIS and should all voted out, :suicide:,
Calling this Armageddeon, and just became irrational.
[QUOTE=Pascall;52359234]banged up a little isn't equal to getting shot at!
he was clearly aiming to kill, not aiming to spook 'em.[/QUOTE]
That's true. But as I said in my first post, I think this type of thing is only going to get worse in the future. Every other country manages to take care of its citizens for the most part with healthcare, but not ours? The richest one? The world is connected now, and people are starting to realize that, ironically, the USA is disconnected from the world in a lot of matters for reasons that are ridiculous
[QUOTE=geel9;52359231]
When is that point? I have no idea.[/QUOTE]
When they're dropping bombs on protesters, and arresting political opponents.
I'd like to think that America hasn't reached the point where taking up arms and shooting the people in power is the only way to bring about change. That's usually reserved for third-world dictatorships.
[QUOTE=OvB;52359237]That's for when the army is kicking down your door. Not bad politics. American's don't know what real oppression is because it hasn't happened in recent memory. (Not since the civil rights movement, maybe?)[/QUOTE]
Not since the good ol british empire
/s they weren't good at all
[QUOTE=TheTalon;52359239]That's true. But as I said in my first post, I think this type of thing is only going to get worse in the future. Every other country manages to take care of its citizens for the most part with healthcare, but not ours? The richest one? The world is connected now, and people are starting to realize that, ironically, the USA is disconnected from the world in a lot of matters for reasons that are ridiculous[/QUOTE]
you can recognize that things are going downhill and understand that violence may be inevitable in the long run but that doesn't mean you have to stand there and condone it.
if people on the side of the oppressed find it prudent to take up arms then it's not in my power to stop them from doing so but I'm not going to pat their backs and say "good job guys this'll definitely show 'em" because it won't. it's only going to keep escalating until people stop on either side and say maybe there's a different way to do this.
I have 0 interest in committing acts of violence, no matter how broken down I get. it's not something I feel is in mine or anyone else's best interests and I'm not a violent person in general. I can't, in all good conscience, sit here and condone acts like this. no matter who they're coming from.
[QUOTE=OvB;52359241]When they're dropping bombs on protesters, and arresting political opponents.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's unilaterally true. The government can "peacefully" subdue the nation for a long time. The government only has to get violent when the populace becomes violent -- which according to you cannot happen until the government becomes violent.
