GM plans to release cars with no steering wheel next year - Sensationalist Headlines

I don't know if I can trust them yet to go off roads. My usual hiking spot has an unmarked dirt lot everyone parks at and I don't want the thing to make me pay to park in the real lot inside unless I could send it home and call it to pick me up when I'm finished

[QUOTE=bilbasio;53046624]I would never enter a car without a steering wheel if not ALL other cars also don't have steering wheels. There is too many random factors when other humans are driving that makes it way too dangerous for a robot to control 100% of the trip. Most of the big jumbo planes fly themselves 99% of the trip and some can also takeoff and land on their own but they still have a yoke on board.[/QUOTE] I Wouldn't enter one in any circumstances. I don't care how good the reliability record is, [I]I want peace-of-mind that I can override it if the need arises[/I]. Maybe that's because I'm trying to get somewhere where satnav doesn't know the path, signage is non-existent, and 'pavement' equals 'gravel in some places and maybe a path through the grass in a spot or three', maybe I'm trying to do donuts in my back yard, maybe I'm just bored and want to drive myself for a change, doesn't matter.

I'm not sure completely phasing out car ownership is viable for the entire population. Towns and cities, maybe. Rural areas? Likely not. If your nearest neighbor is 2 miles down the road, the nearest town larger than 3,000 people is 10 miles away and so on, what are the chances that you'll get adequate service from a fleet of autonomous taxis? And if you happen to own one yourself, how good is it going to be at navigating off-road or performing non-transport tasks, never mind whether or not the chassis can even handle it? I'm of the belief that self-driving technology and the ride-share system will supplement manual driving and private vehicle ownership, rather than supplant it entirely.

[QUOTE=Bernie Buddy;53047435]Why wouldn't I want to own a car? I don't see what owning a car has to do with automatic driving or safety.[/QUOTE] Nevermind the significant chunk of the population that [I]enjoys driving as a hobby[/I], a group of people whom I proudly claim to be a member of. I enjoy driving. It's therapeutic. It's fun. It's calming. I'll never give up my steering wheel, I don't give a fuck if it's legal or not I'm still driving myself around. If that means jury-rigging an autonomous car to respond to a gamepad then so be it, I'll drive to work with a fucking gamepad. [QUOTE=FurrehFaux;53047390]To be completely honest, I'm never getting this or any self-driving car for that matter. Ignoring how utterly boring they'd be, computers don't have a perfect track record for reliability either, even though that's the biggest "advantage" to 'em. I also like being able to work on my car without needing to have a PhD or being locked out because the software says I'm not allowed.[/QUOTE] You and me both. [editline]12th January 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Psychokitten;53048309]I'm not sure completely phasing out car ownership is viable for the entire population. Towns and cities, maybe. Rural areas? Likely not. If your nearest neighbor is 2 miles down the road, the nearest town larger than 3,000 people is 10 miles away and so on, what are the chances that you'll get adequate service from a fleet of autonomous taxis? And if you happen to own one yourself, how good is it going to be at navigating off-road or performing non-transport tasks, never mind whether or not the chassis can even handle it? I'm of the belief that self-driving technology and the ride-share system will supplement manual driving and private vehicle ownership, rather than supplant it entirely.[/QUOTE] self-driving technology is great for urban and suburban usage. It's god-awful for enthusiasts and rural usage.

[QUOTE=TestECull;53048311]self-driving technology is great for urban and suburban usage. It's god-awful for enthusiasts and [U]rural usage[/U].[/QUOTE] Imagine decided you want to run to the local walmart for a 2am snack, but you don't have a car because those are expensive and it's easy to get hooked on automatic taxis. So you open your phone and try to get a ride but 3/5 cars busy, 2 on standby, so it offers to order one from the nearest city. ETA 35 minutes. What would have taken you about 20 minutes will now take an hour because you have to wait for a car to arrive from some depot far away from you. And that's just rural use, not [B]rural[/B] use, where the app will probably just say you're out of the service area.

This just seems a bit too much of a gamble/leap. I mean other companies are [B][I]STILL[/I][/B] trying to get self driving cars out of R&D and GM just produces this in a heartbeat? There's a reason they're still in R&D because the concept isn't properly functional (or at least to a degree which is safer than manual driving). The lack of manual override is pretty unnerving as well. I mean if you've driven before, getting into a car without a steering wheel is bad enough (you don't have control which makes you feel like you'll crash at any time) but no manual override at all? GM, your AI/Software better be the best damn thing ever written...

[QUOTE=Zenamez;53048407]This just seems a bit too much of a gamble/leap. I mean other companies are [B][I]STILL[/I][/B] trying to get self driving cars out of R&D and GM just produces this in a heartbeat? There's a reason they're still in R&D because the concept isn't properly functional (or at least to a degree which is safer than manual driving). [/QUOTE] It is already safer in most weather conditions (training still in progress on snow and ice). Where are you getting that it's less safe than manual? I agree it is wierd this comes out of GM suddenly. Their R&D lab has been pretty stealthy though.

[QUOTE=phygon;53047992]Why do you think that you're better than autonomous cars? Autonomous cars are just a fledgling technology but even including the first early prototypes that were on roads, the collision rate is [I]way[/I] lower than it is with human drivers. [editline]s[/editline] You, me, and every other person are all shit drivers. This is a statistical fact and if you think it doesn't apply to you then you're kidding yourself. Compared to other people I consider myself a good driver, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm better than a machine literally built for the sole purpose of executing the task by some of the most brilliant minds in engineering.[/QUOTE] because computers can never go wrong, right? What if this turd had an electrical fault (which cars can have) while driving? congrats, you have no control as the car is barreling towards the back of a semi

What I find most amusing about this development, and that just came to my mind a minute or two ago as I dread going to work? I drive a forklift for CEVA Logistics, and primarily, what crosses my forks is auto parts. Occasionally, it's Honda. I worked the Honda docks one night, but Honda usually gets knocked out within 2-4 hours at most and rarely has more than two lift drivers assigned to it any one night. Maybe once in a blue moon it's VW or Audi(We only have two inbound and two outbound docks for VAG group and truthfully I've never seen anyone on third shift ever enter any of those trailers). [I]Most of our freight is GM.[/I] Just a couple days ago I unloaded a few pallets with cryptic messages about not deploying this material until mid 2018 taped to the sides. I shoved 'em into outbound trailers going to known assembly plants. In all likelihood, I've handled parts of these cars. Probably trim/interior stuff, the pallets weighed fuck all. [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;53048383]Imagine decided you want to run to the local walmart for a 2am snack, but you don't have a car because those are expensive and it's easy to get hooked on automatic taxis. So you open your phone and try to get a ride but 3/5 cars busy, 2 on standby, so it offers to order one from the nearest city. ETA 35 minutes. What would have taken you about 20 minutes will now take an hour because you have to wait for a car to arrive from some depot far away from you. And that's just rural use, not [B]rural[/B] use, where the app will probably just say you're out of the service area.[/QUOTE] Yup. I live out in the sticks like that where it'd be problematic. It's 20 minutes from my driveway to the local walmart, 15 to city limits. It's an hour's drive east or west until I hit the nearest actual city. Even if I liked the idea of autonomous cars being owned by the cloud/as a service it wouldn't work. Out here, owning one's own car is [B]mandatory[/B].

[QUOTE=Harbie;53047702][url]http://time.com/money/4797898/self-driving-cars-could-soon-save-the-average-family-at-least-5600-a-year/[/url] [url]https://www.rethinkx.com/executive-summary[/url] The idea is that is that cars are going to transition to a service/utility rather than a good individual consumers buy. Traditional automakers aren't huge fans, you're right. But they see the writing on the wall. If they don't start working on it tech firms like Tesla, Waymo, Uber, etc. will (and already have). The automakers will sell cars in fleets to companies like Uber or Lyft. Likely they'll work out some sort of contract where the automaker will help maintain the fleet and refresh it periodically with new models. Stop thinking of self driving as a cool upgrade to your personal car. It's going to fundamentally change transit when combined with ride sharing and the reduced maintenance cost of EVs. Every tech firm and automaker is aware of this and planning for it. Read Musk's long vision for Tesla or Waymo's roadmap, or read about any of the fundamentals of ride-sharing companies. [editline]12th January 2018[/editline] Because it's cheaper for you to ride-hail an autonomous EV. Why would you want to own a car? It depreciates in value rapidly, has continuous maintenance, insurance, and fuel costs, and sits unused for ~90% of the day. If you're an enthusiast or live in a rural area, sure. [URL="https://electrek.co/2017/05/01/tesla-network-elon-musk-autonomous-ride-sharing-vision/"]Even Musk envisions car owners essentially renting out their car to a ridesharing service for most of the day so it will generate revenue.[/URL][/QUOTE] boy I sure can't wait to own even less /s sure is helpful for people like me who live at the end of a dirt driveway in the middle of bumfuck nowhere :)))

[QUOTE=Harbie;53048413]It is already safer in most weather conditions (training still in progress on snow and ice). Where are you getting that it's less safe than manual? I agree it is wierd this comes out of GM suddenly. Their R&D lab has been pretty stealthy though.[/QUOTE] I'm mostly getting the "less safe than manual" from the [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/26/uber-suspends-self-driving-cars-arizona-crash-volvo-suv"]numerous crashes[/URL] [URL="https://splinternews.com/volvo-says-horrible-self-parking-car-accident-happened-1793847943"]self driving cars[/URL] have been in (which could have been prevented had someone been able to take control). I mean, hell [URL="https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/14/16776466/volvo-drive-me-self-driving-car-sweden-delay"]Volvo have gone back to their "give the driver the ability to override the vehicle"[/URL] mantra after literal years of R&D because of the risk of crashes etc. That's not a good sign when they were arguably the first ones on the scene with a working prototype self driving car. Of course this will change with time and they'll eventually get safer but at the moment (and within the next 5 years?) I still wouldn't get into a self driving car unless I knew I could take control. No implementation is perfect, and [URL="http://beta.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-tesla-autopilot-20170912-story.html"]someone's already lost their life[/URL] due to not taking control of the self-driving vehicle to prevent a crash (in that links case - into a trailer at a junction). Worse still, the guy in that crash at least had the option to take control (but didn't). It'd be so much worse if you were actually paying attention but had no way to prevent it.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;53046615]What if someone hacks the car? :v: Thinking about it, I would love to mod a car to steer it with an Xbox One Controler[/QUOTE] Mod the car to run off a racing wheel?

I guess in other GM news, they're also planning to release $70k hybrid supercar [URL]https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2018/01/12/mid-engine-corvette-coming[/URL] goddamn, that's half the price of an NSX and 2 more cylinders.

When my roomba can clean the house without getting stuck under the fridge ill believe in it

[QUOTE=Zenamez;53048478]I'm mostly getting the "less safe than manual" from the [URL="https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/26/uber-suspends-self-driving-cars-arizona-crash-volvo-suv"]numerous crashes[/URL] [URL="https://splinternews.com/volvo-says-horrible-self-parking-car-accident-happened-1793847943"]self driving cars[/URL] have been in (which could have been prevented had someone been able to take control). I mean, hell [URL="https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/14/16776466/volvo-drive-me-self-driving-car-sweden-delay"]Volvo have gone back to their "give the driver the ability to override the vehicle"[/URL] mantra after literal years of R&D because of the risk of crashes etc. That's not a good sign when they were arguably the first ones on the scene with a working prototype self driving car. Of course this will change with time and they'll eventually get safer but at the moment (and within the next 5 years?) I still wouldn't get into a self driving car unless I knew I could take control. No implementation is perfect, and [URL="http://beta.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-tesla-autopilot-20170912-story.html"]someone's already lost their life[/URL] due to not taking control of the self-driving vehicle to prevent a crash (in that links case - into a trailer at a junction). Worse still, the guy in that crash at least had the option to take control (but didn't). It'd be so much worse if you were actually paying attention but had no way to prevent it.[/QUOTE] Ah. Most of the time I think of the Waymo self driving cars since they test them in my neighborhood. I don't have the link on me but they've already at a far, far lower rate of manual interventions than regular cars are of crashes. There's a report out there somewhere. Uber was reckless, yeah. Its also important to remember you should be comparing self driving cars to human drivers. There will be accidents, yes, but compare that to the accident rates from human drivers. Also: Tesla's "autopilot" is glorified lanekeeping.

[QUOTE=Morgen;53047645]Skates? Skip to 2:50 [video=youtube;TeZ8JxD1r80]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeZ8JxD1r80[/video][/QUOTE] I guess, when I totalled my Saturn Ion they just pulled it onto the flatbed but that weighed substantially less than a bolt

[QUOTE=phygon;53047930]No. Computers react significantly faster than people do to everything, absolute end of discussion. You are not faster at reacting to unsafe drivers than a computer is.[/QUOTE] Sure they are faster at reacting, but are they better at identifying an unsafe situation? I dont believe so. Car isnt going to notice that the curve ahead looks slippery. The roads looking like the surface of the moon is going to confuse it as well.

I have no doubts that in the future, driverless cars will be undeniably safe. But I'm still going to be wary about adopting technology that's still relatively new and not yet used widely.

I definitely trust autonomous cars simply because I’ve had close calls where idiots do dumb shit in the middle of parkway traffic, nearly side swiping me as they go between me and another car and nearly causing a twelve car pile up—and I didn’t even realize what happened until they already passed me and avoided a huge catastrophe. Now, out in rural towns further away from urban centers I would still want a steering wheel. There are times when I need to take over.

[QUOTE=Zenreon117;53047097]Imagine: You wake up groggy, you put on pants, grab a bowl of cereal, and go to your car where you eat your breakfast while you go to work.[/QUOTE] just the pants?

[QUOTE=Aleal;53046832]Is a driving license really that out of reach for you guys? How much does it cost where you live? Or is it just because you despise the act of driving a car?[/QUOTE] Haven't needed one really. Every job I've had was only ever a 30 minute walk. I'm not sure what it costs to get a license now, last I heard it was about $120+ for the test or $500+ for the school. I originally wanted to get the schooling as it helps with insurance. However a cars maintenance cost as well as gas prices constantly sky rocketing and insurance being a scam, all deter me from getting one. That said, I do need to start getting my license soon, I'm finding myself in more need of a vehicle these days.

[QUOTE=Araknid;53048423]because computers can never go wrong, right? What if this turd had an electrical fault (which cars can have) while driving? congrats, you have no control as the car is barreling towards the back of a semi[/QUOTE] The chance of it having an electrical fault is far lower than the chance of you having an electric fault and contributing towards the [B]3,287[/B] deaths a [I]day[/I] in the [I]united states alone[/I]. People should NOT be driving vehicles on public roads if we have safe alternative. [editline]13th January 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Cmx;53048521]Sure they are faster at reacting, but are they better at identifying an unsafe situation? I dont believe so. Car isnt going to notice that the curve ahead looks slippery. The roads looking like the surface of the moon is going to confuse it as well.[/QUOTE] They are. Even including the shitty v 0.1s of modern self driving cars, the trip-per-accident ration is still way lower than human drivers.

[QUOTE=phygon;53049831]The chance of it having an electrical fault is far lower than the chance of you having an electric fault and contributing towards the [B]3,287[/B] deaths a [I]day[/I] in the [I]united states alone[/I]. People should NOT be driving vehicles on public roads if we have safe alternative. [editline]13th January 2018[/editline] They are. Even including the shitty v 0.1s of modern self driving cars, the trip-per-accident ration is still way lower than human drivers.[/QUOTE] What are you not getting? This isn't against autonomous driving, it's against autonomous driving [I]without even giving an option to override it, because there's no bloody steering wheel.[/I] If you are honestly fine with sitting in a fast moving tin box and having zero immediate control over it, there is something wrong with you.

[QUOTE=Bertie;53050075]What are you not getting? This isn't against autonomous driving, it's against autonomous driving [I]without even giving an option to override it, because there's no bloody steering wheel.[/I] If you are honestly fine with sitting in a fast moving tin box and having zero immediate control over it, there is something wrong with you.[/QUOTE] Seems fine for ride hailing services when the technology is working within areas it has proven itself in.

[QUOTE=Bertie;53050075]If you are honestly fine with sitting in a fast moving tin box and having zero immediate control over it, there is something wrong with you.[/QUOTE] It's the same when you're riding in a taxi though, isn't it? You have no means of personally overriding the controls there either if your driver falls asleep or have a heart attack or epileptic seizure.

This is a fucking stupid and dangerous idea. No matter how safe you make it, YOU HAVE A FUCKING OVERRIDE because you need that capabillity to take control if something goes wrong. A lot of trains are automated to the extent that the driver's regular job consists entirely of operating the doors, but they still have full controls.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;53050134]It's the same when you're riding in a taxi though, isn't it? You have no means of personally overriding the controls there either if your driver falls asleep or have a heart attack or epileptic seizure.[/QUOTE] I mean, in cases where bus drivers have fallen asleep, things have been quite bad, needless to say. [URL="https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=992_1447285249"](Liveleak link, No gore/blood, just painful to watch)[/URL]

[QUOTE=snookypookums;53050168]I mean, in cases where bus drivers have fallen asleep, things have been quite bad, needless to say. [URL="https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=992_1447285249"](Liveleak link, No gore/blood, just painful to watch)[/URL][/QUOTE] The chances your computer driving your car falls asleep and crashes (ie. fails) is probably less than that of your fuel line on your car causing your vehicle to ignite while in motion.

[QUOTE=Bertie;53050075]What are you not getting? This isn't against autonomous driving, it's against autonomous driving [I]without even giving an option to override it, because there's no bloody steering wheel.[/I] If you are honestly fine with sitting in a fast moving tin box and having zero immediate control over it, there is something wrong with you.[/QUOTE] That's exactly how Uber/taxis/riding in anyone else's car works, except instead of an engineered 360-degree-view non-tiring work robot driving it, there's just a person. So yes, I am perfectly fine sitting in a fast moving tin box and having no control over it. People have proven time and time again that they are incredibly irresponsible at driving and I honestly look forward to the day when non-autonomous vehicles are not permitted on public roads. It you could only kill yourself by being a jackass behind the wheel, I'd have a different opinion. But that's not the case.

[QUOTE=Revenge282;53050224]The chances your computer driving your car falls asleep and crashes (ie. fails) is probably less than that of your fuel line on your car causing your vehicle to ignite while in motion.[/QUOTE] That...wasn't why I posted the link, but actually making a case for why self-driving cars are actually good, but okay. :v: