12-year-old boy who transitioned to female has now changed their mind. - Sensationalist Headlines

How long did it take for us to start accepting things like Schizophrenia, Depression, Anxiety, even homosexuality as medical science? We [I]just[/I] started trying to figure this stuff out, we haven't even nailed nomenclature yet. We're going to figure the psychology of this stuff out. We're going to get better at diagnosing people. It's just going to take time. Like I said, think of anything like this is in the past and how long it took us to understand and accept it.

Any doctor willing to perform a sex operation on a kid who's not even done developing yet should lose their license to practice Your frontal lobe isn't done developing until ~21. Your frontal lobe determines your judgement. I'm not surprised a 12 year old thinks he knows what he wants, because he's 12. When I was 12 I wanted stretched ears and tattoos and within 2 years I realized how fucking dumb that would've been.

[QUOTE=dunkace;52661493]Well no shit. Most medical things you cannot make until your a consenting adult so why this shit was allowed in the first place I dont understand.[/QUOTE] Well, this isn't like "most medical things" because it's way more effective when you start early. Not that I think there's currently a definitive answer (or at least I don't know enough about it to say), but you can't just equate this with other cosmetic surgery.

Should be considered child abuse to do this to such young children.

[QUOTE=Sky King;52661808]Should be considered child abuse to do this to such young children.[/QUOTE] Why? It's his own decision. If he never had second thoughts, it would've been considered child abuse by some to not let him/her transition.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52661879]Why? It's his own decision. If he never had second thoughts, it would've been considered child abuse by some to not let him/her transition.[/QUOTE] Reminder, young kids are dumb and cannot make a rational decisions, because they are young, their brain is literally not developed enough, not to mention if the child is pre-puberty, that's even more to consider. They haven't figured out themselves yet, haven't lived enough. You cannot make decisions at a young age that have ramifications for your entire life Try to think back to all the dumb shit you wanted as a kid and you were 100% convinced that it was a good idea.

[QUOTE=joost1120;52661879]Why? It's his own decision. If he never had second thoughts, it would've been considered child abuse by some to not let him/her transition.[/QUOTE] "It's his own decision" isn't an excuse. If your 12 year old child says they want their arm cut off and you let them do it, it's on you, the adult, for enabling it.

From what someone mentioned earlier in the thread: The doctor didn't prescribe hormones for the kid and it's in fact very rare to be prescribed hormones before the age of 18 in most areas and around 16 at the earliest. Anything else is hormone blockers which are 100% reversible. The issue here isn't the doctor doing an inadequate job, it seems it was the kid's parent(s) that are the one(s) guilty of that.

I always had dreams of being a woman but that seems extreme.

[QUOTE=The golden;52661949]Why did they let him start estrogen so early? He should have been kept on puberty blockers for most of that time. The thing about puberty blockers is that they're largely reversible. Estrogen is not. But at the end of the day it was his choice and he feels he made the wrong choice. [B]He's not quite an adult but he's not really a child either.[/B] Cases of regret do happen amongst trans people but they are not common by any means. This is really just a case of "sometimes shit happens." Not every one is happy with the choices they make. It's part of life.[/QUOTE] He's very much a child, even at 14, but especially at 12.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52661698]Well the thing with schizophrenia, depression, anxiety is: There are associated medical changes within the body. We can see them on scans, we can find lab values for them, we can QUANTIFY them. Which is critical in medicine (and why a lot of psych is.. less than reliable in a hospital setting). Once we can quantify things, we can treat things. We need to actually understand the underlying chemistry. For example, a lot of "mental illness" can be treated by treating underlying causes. I've seen people with are having a schizo episode get sorted out by fixing electrolyte imbalances. I've seen depression properly treated with vitamin D. That's the HUGE problem I have with psych. It says "something's wrong with your brain" without actually asking WHY (biologically) there's something wrong (and this is coming from a guy who almost got a psych degree). Once you figure out the WHY, you can treat it effectively, be it hormone imbalance, be it electrolyte imbalance, be it tumors, only until you've eliminated the biological reasons, should you go with psych reasons.[/QUOTE] The big problem with this is that unlike most medical conditions, how society perceives you has a lot to do with it. Simply teaching society how gender and sexuality work would go a long way here. Think of it this way. Uzi got a lot of shit for this photo. [img_thumb]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_11Li5UMAA5JG0.jpg[/img_thumb] He's not even dressed [I]that[/I] feminine. If you were someone who heard all the awful things people said about Lil Uzi when that picture came out, you would have a really skewed idea of how you're allowed to express gender. If you identified as male but wanted to look like Lil Uzi does in that photo, you might not think this ok. What if you were female and wanted to wear "mens" accessories? Would you fear people would perceive you as overly masculine? Would you be afraid to try it? If you did try it, would you receive any hate? If you tried out the accessory and decided it looked good, would people question your motives every day you wore it? [img_thumb]http://wardrobelooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Baseball-Hats-For-Women-5.jpg[/img_thumb] If kids were allowed to "test the waters" so to speak without receiving a ton of bullying for it, we would probably have less people that feel like 100% passing is the only way to fit in. If boys could carry a purse in the same way girls are allowed to wear their boyfriends hoodies, we might find that some people never wanted to transition. We might find that some people just want to carry a cute purse, even when they identify as male. We might find that the artificial pressure created by criticizing anybody in the middle of the spectrum is forcing people to farther to one side than they would've landed on their own.

-whoopsie daisy bad reading-

As far as I know the doctors did not prescribe hormones, this kid was given oestrogen by his mother...

[QUOTE=joost1120;52661879]Why? It's his own decision. If he never had second thoughts, it would've been considered child abuse by some to not let him/her transition.[/QUOTE] A 12 year old cant buy a car or open an bank account, rent a apartment, have legal curfew in some places, cant legally give consent, not stop going to school, work a job and many more. Why would making permanent drastic medical changes to his body that cant be reversed be allowed? Im pretty sure most doctors wouldnt even allow laser eye surgery be done.

[QUOTE=MedicWine;52662001]The big problem with this is that unlike most medical conditions, how society perceives you has a lot to do with it. Simply teaching society how gender and sexuality work would go a long way here. Think of it this way. Uzi got a lot of shit for this photo. [img_thumb]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_11Li5UMAA5JG0.jpg[/img_thumb] He's not even dressed [I]that[/I] feminine. If you were someone who heard all the awful things people said about Lil Uzi when that picture came out, you would have a really skewed idea of how you're allowed to express gender. If you identified as male but wanted to look like Lil Uzi does in that photo, you might not think this ok. What if you were female and wanted to wear "mens" accessories? Would you fear people would perceive you as overly masculine? Would you be afraid to try it? If you did try it, would you receive any hate? If you tried out the accessory and decided it looked good, would people question your motives every day you wore it? [img_thumb]http://wardrobelooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Baseball-Hats-For-Women-5.jpg[/img_thumb] If kids were allowed to "test the waters" so to speak without receiving a ton of bullying for it, we would probably have less people that feel like 100% passing is the only way to fit in. If boys could carry a purse in the same way girls are allowed to wear their boyfriends hoodies, we might find that some people never wanted to transition. We might find that some people just want to carry a cute purse, even when they identify as male. We might find that the artificial pressure created by criticizing anybody in the middle of the spectrum is forcing people to farther to one side than they would've landed on their own.[/QUOTE] We should let kids do major medical changes to their selves so grown men that dress weird and wear purses can feel less ashamed?

[QUOTE=Sky King;52662073]Why would making permanent drastic medical changes to his body that cant be reversed be allowed?[/QUOTE] If you read the thread you'd already be aware that it [I]isn't[/I]. The doctor who diagnosed the kid is not the one responsible for giving the kid hormones. That appears to be his mother. As I said last page the earliest you can typically get on hormones is 16 and in most places it's not allowed before 18 under any circumstance. But even with those exceptions it's only allowed when your psychiatrist is absolutely certain that it's the proper path to take.

[QUOTE=The golden;52662092] And this is where the issue comes in. Whoever gave him estrogen is an idiot. That stuff is NOT reversible once it kicks in. [B]Standard practice is to give puberty blockers to youth because it's reversible and safe should they change their mind.[/B][/QUOTE] Don't say this. It's bad science. Current usages of puberty-blockers are an off-label usage and the effects of their application at such an age over such a long period of time hasn't been properly studied. The child is basically being an experiment. It may actually prove to be very harmful, particularly to bone and neurological development which puberty is very much involved in. Especially if they're administered at say, age 11, and are left until cross-hormones are begun at age 17-18.

[QUOTE=srobins;52661933]"It's his own decision" isn't an excuse. If your 12 year old child says they want their arm cut off and you let them do it, it's on you, the adult, for enabling it.[/QUOTE] It doesn't seem like an impulse decision from the article. They consulted experts and doctors diagnosed the kid with gender dysphoria.

Supposedly, a member of my far extended family went through a transition at one point. She started identifying as male, and worked her way up to taking hormones. The turning point, from what I heard through the grape vine, was that at some point she experienced a heart attack. I can't recall her age, but I don't think she is much older than her early 30s at this point. But yeah, I guess she expressed it as her body rejecting the change. After that, she supposedly adjusted back to identifying as female, even going far as dating men again. I know there are documented cases of successful transitions, but I still think there is still a lot of risk involved. I still struggle to this day to fully comprehend the concept. I kind of think of people that are gay as just oppositely wired. It's still not something I comprehend 100%, but it's still a fairly simple concept biologically. But when it comes to transgender stuff, I think it starts to get complicated. If I'm not mistaken, medically speaking, it is easier to transplant a major organ than it is to fully transform a person's sex. Maybe not the best comparison, as organ transplants are the results of an organ failing, and are usually a matter of life and death. But my point is, the body will more easily take another person's lung, kidney, blood, etc. better than grafting and surgically creating sex organs, as well as changing body chemistry. Although, at least from this story, the complications do not seem to be severe. It almost just sounds like a cosmetic issue, since they just seem to mention removing the excess breast tissue. But I guess obviously the point of the story is to shed light on what happens when people really believe they changed their mind and want to reverse their transition.

[QUOTE=The golden;52662133]To be fair this is also the case for estrogen/testosterone hormone therapy. The long-term effects are not very well understood and it's administered to the person under caution.[/QUOTE] Not really. The first time HRT was used for transgender people was in 1949. It's been studied, and methods have been improved upon quite a bit. It also sees quite a bit of usage outside of handling transgenderism. Of course, you can say the data is relatively limited because of population, but there's still heaps more data on the effects of HRT. The current usage of puberty blockers in kids isn't even 10 years old.

[QUOTE=The golden;52662133]To be fair this is also the case for estrogen/testosterone hormone therapy. The long-term effects are not very well understood and it's administered to the person under caution. But it's still standard practice and considered safe if done under supervision.[/QUOTE] You keep saying standard practice, even tho this kind of stuff is easily one of the most experimental fields with very little long term studies to pull from.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52662152]You keep saying standard practice, even tho this kind of stuff is easily one of the most experimental fields with very little long term studies to pull from.[/QUOTE] More data may be helpful but its far from experimental at this point

I am unable to watch the video right now, but confusion and/or uncertainty aren't exactly unusual for transgendered people, and that's often a huge point of trauma and conflict for them. The daughter of some good family friends is trans, female to male, and struggles with similar feelings. She tries to maintain an androgynous look so that she can still introduce herself as female if she's feeling uncomfortable.

[QUOTE=da space core;52662201]More data may be helpful but its far from experimental at this point[/QUOTE] Really? How many 40+ year old adults to elderly people have gone through this process from a young age? You see, I believe some people here are inferring that because it is the recommended technique for people to transition, that makes it a "standard procedure," but in the grand context of modern medicine, the practice is still experimental when compared to actual standard procedures. Manipulating children's hormones in such a manner to influence them to the opposite sex is a relatively new practice in modern medicine. Acting like it isn't is nonsense and ignoring real observable consequences of infertility, bone structure changes, and other neurological developments. [quote]Puberty blockers have been tested and used for children who start puberty very young — if their bodies start to change before the age of eight or nine. Dr. Courtney Finlayson, a pediatric endocrinologist at Lurie Children’s Hospital, said, “We have a lot of experience in pediatric endocrinology using pubertal blockers. And from all the evidence we have they are generally a very safe medication.” [b]But their use in treating transgender children is a relatively new practice, first prescribed in the United States by the Gender Management Service at Boston Children’s Hospital in 2007, and recommended in the Endocrine Society’s guidelines for the treatment of transgender people in 2009.[/b] Doctors say the benefit of using puberty blockers is that they block hormone-induced biological changes, such as vocal chord changes, the development of breast tissue or changes in facial structure, that are irreversible and can be especially distressing to children who are gender-non conforming or transgender. “One of the challenges that’s been faced in the past is that treatment of the transgender population really didn’t start until they were either at least older adolescents or adults,” said Finlayson. “And by that time they’ve had all of the pubertal and physical changes that go along with their … natal sex.” With the use of puberty blockers, “we’re really starting to some extent from a little bit more of a blank slate,” Finlayson explained. “We don’t have to be erasing or trying to get rid of all these other changes that occurred that they don’t want.” [b]However, the use of puberty blockers to treat transgender children is what’s considered an “off label” use of the medication — something that hasn’t been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. And doctors say their biggest concern is about how long children stay on the medication, because there isn’t enough research into the effects of stalling puberty at the age when children normally go through it. The Endocrine Society’s guidelines suggest starting puberty blockers for transgender children when they hit a stage of development known as Tanner stage 2 — usually around 10 or 11 years old for a girl and 11 or 12 years old for a boy. The same guidelines suggest giving cross sex hormones — estrogen for transgender girls and testosterone for transgender boys — at age 16. However, doctors caution that estrogen and testosterone, the hormones that are blocked by these medications, also play a role in a child’s neurological development and bone growth. “We do know that there is some decrease in bone density during treatment with pubertal suppression,” Finlayson said, adding that initial studies have shown that starting estrogen and testosterone can help regain the bone density. What Finlayson said there isn’t enough research on is whether someone who was on puberty blockers will regain all their bone strength, or if they might be at risk for osteoporosis in the future. Another area where doctors say there isn’t enough research is the impact that suppressing puberty has on brain development.[/b] “The bottom line is we don’t really know how sex hormones impact any adolescent’s brain development,” Dr. Lisa Simons, a pediatrician at Lurie Children’s, told FRONTLINE. “We know that there’s a lot of brain development between childhood and adulthood, but it’s not clear what’s behind that.” What’s lacking, she said, are specific studies that look at the neurocognitive effects of puberty blockers. “I wouldn’t use [puberty blockers] if I didn’t think that they were safe, or that the benefits didn’t outweigh the potential risks,” Finlayson said. “But we always have this conversation with families before we start.”[/quote] [quote]Another potential dilemma facing transgender children, their families and their doctors is this: Taking cross hormones can reduce fertility. And there isn’t enough research to find out of it is reversible or not. So when children make the decision to start taking hormones, they have to consider whether they ever want to have biological children. “I think it’s really important to talk to these children and families about fertility,” Finlayson says. “I do worry that at that stage in life many of them may not be able to realize how important that would be to them someday.”[/quote] [quote]While transgender adults have taken hormones sometimes for years, the generation growing up now is among the first to start taking hormones so young. Since most people who start hormones take them for life, doctors say there also isn’t enough research into the long-term impact of taking estrogen or testosterone for what could end up being 50 to 70 years. “There are so many unanswered questions around the long-term consequences, and whether your health risk profile really becomes that of a male or female,” Garofalo says. “If we start testosterone today, will you have the cardiac risk profile of a male or female as you grow older? Will you develop breast cancer because we’re administering estrogen? “I think those are the unanswered questions that really trouble me, and can only be answered with long-term follow-up studies.”[/quote] [url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/[/url] Here is an interview with a doctor who administers this treatment directly counteracting the notion this is all "Standard". And even though this doctor is in favor of administering the procedure, there are a range of doctors that not only acknowledge these issues, but provide substantial data to show that these consequences are the reason they won't administer it. Quite simply, none of this is "standard procedure" and alot of it is still being debated by doctors.

[QUOTE=Sky King;52662090]We should let kids do major medical changes to their selves so grown men that dress weird and wear purses can feel less ashamed?[/QUOTE] 1. I was suggesting that if allowed proper expression, medical changes would be [B]less[/B] necessary. 2. Ashamed? That's a $2400 shirt and a Goyard bag. He's showing off, not ashamed. He's also not trans or a cross-dresser, just into fashion. Which helps my point about people being overly harsh at the slightest sign of femininity in men. 3. If medical attention at a young age would solve a problem before they reached adulthood that would be a [I]good[/I] thing. "Grown men" and children arent mutually exclusive.

[QUOTE=MedicWine;52662001]He's not even dressed [I]that[/I] feminine. If you were someone who heard all the awful things people said about Lil Uzi when that picture came out, you would have a really skewed idea of how you're allowed to express gender. If you identified as male but wanted to look like Lil Uzi does in that photo, you might not think this ok.[/QUOTE] People gave Lil Uzi Vert shit for that because A. he looks fucking ridiculous and B. he's a rapper and the people giving him shit were members of the hip hop community. Of course a male rapper dressing like a teenage girl is going to get shit on by hip hop heads, this is a really bad example to base your argument on.

A friend of mine was certain that he was transgender (M>F) for 5 years or so, then only a week or two before he was due to be on the first wave of hormones, he just changed his mind at the snap of a finger :s:

[QUOTE=srobins;52662319]People gave Lil Uzi Vert shit for that because A. he looks fucking ridiculous[/QUOTE] Subjective [QUOTE=srobins;52662319]B. he's a rapper and the people giving him shit were members of the hip hop community.[/QUOTE] Some were yes, but not everybody in the world that commented on this was part of hip-hop. But even if they were I was suggesting that kids could overhear some untrue sentiments expressed about gender-expression. That can still happen in a hip-hop community. [QUOTE=srobins;52662319]Of course a male rapper dressing like a teenage girl is going to get shit on by hip hop heads[/quote] You're suggesting that the hip-hop community as a whole blasted them for this, when this just isnt true. [media]https://youtu.be/Pn5I0c-cCk0?t=436[/media]

I looked it up cause this story sounded fucked and apparently it's illegal to prescribe hormones to people under 18 (or 16? It's kinda vague) in Australia, so something happened that they've not reported

[QUOTE=srobins;52661933]"It's his own decision" isn't an excuse. If your 12 year old child says they want their arm cut off and you let them do it, it's on you, the adult, for enabling it.[/QUOTE] I dont think people this young are equipped to make decisions like and shouldn't be given hrt but comparing transpeople to people that want to cut their arms off is a false equivalence