12-year-old boy who transitioned to female has now changed their mind. - Sensationalist Headlines

It's pretty basic stuff, in my opinion. You need to wait til you're of age to do anything permanent and irreparable to your body. I feel the same way about tattoos, let alone changing your genitals.

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;52662576]but comparing transpeople to people that want to cut their arms off is a false equivalence[/QUOTE] Yah, it is more equivalent to cutting one's dick off. :v: [highlight](User was banned for this post ("This was not appropriate" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=gtanoofa;52662874]Sex Reassignment Surgery is not cutting your dick off tho. Unless you're talking about something else and i'm confused.[/QUOTE] It's just a joke to someone likening it to arm cutting, hence the emote. I would hope most people know that there is a lot more to it and not just a simple cut.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/a1cpsLh.png[/IMG] :thinking: why do situations like these always turn into political pissingfests

[QUOTE=Tudd;52662888]It's just a joke to someone likening it to arm cutting, hence the emote. I would hope most people know that there is a lot more to it and not just a simple cut.[/QUOTE] By making a joke of it, you literally showing both the fact that you don't know (simplifying it to cutting off one's genetals) and that you don't care/want to insult trans folks.

[QUOTE=gufu;52662892]By making a joke of it, you literally showing both the fact that you don't know (simplifying it to cutting off one's genetals) and that you don't care/want to insult trans folks.[/QUOTE] I actually am pretty supportive of people who want to engage in getting SRS, and gone through every avenue to come to that conclusion in an educated and professionally-approved manner. I think people shouldn't take jokes too personally, otherwise you end up like Dave Chapelle and other comedians where they can't touch topics like these. [editline]9th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=gtanoofa;52662899]Oh, my bad. Yeah the procedure itself is very complicated and it takes months to heal to a year. Pretty sure you need like 2 psychiatrist commendations to get it too. [/QUOTE] Depends on the country, but yeah, the actual procedure involves mostly incredible body restructuring. So likening it to just an appendage getting cut off is silly, but if someone was going to make a simple equalivalency, they could have chosen a closer appendage.

[QUOTE=gtanoofa;52662923]Oh right, i forgot. Private surgeons usually require psychiatric evaluations while i think domestic SRS that is approved by the state(like in England) doesn't require any approval by anyone since the state already considers you transgender and in need for SRS. I might be wrong though so don't quote me on that.[/QUOTE] There is actually a fantastic documentary from the UK NHS side of getting the procedure. You might be interested or atleast others on here. [media]https://youtu.be/_iU5JFVtC18[/media] Here they show there is a huge wait time for NHS SRS, and this is highly relevant to this thread, the person in the documentary actually changes their mind quite a few times on getting it. Also turns out the main subject is just kind of an awful person all around (lying to men and using butter as sun tanning oil, ugh), but atleast they bring on a transgender person later in the documentary who has transitioned and is quite stable/business-wise successful/got a boyfriend.

When I was his age, I wanted to be a girl, but only because it made me being girly easier. For some reason I felt like being a boy made it impossible for me to be able to play with dolls or watch Barbie movies on VCR or plaster posters of the Pink Power Ranger all over my walls, and that was long before I knew what gay was. If I had the opportunity to transition, maybe I would have. Would I have regretted it? Hell yes. I am happy with who I am and I don't need to change my body in order to have any of the interests I have. I'm fine just the way I am. That doesn't mean other people can't feel different, but what I'm trying to say is that, when you're as young as that, you really don't understand. Wait until you're at least 18 before doing something as serious as that.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52662863]Yah, it is more equivalent to cutting one's dick off. :v:[/QUOTE] [quote] In reality, only 33 percent of transgender people have reported undergoing some form of gender-confirming surgery, with 14 percent of transgender women and 21 percent of transgender men not interested in ever having genital surgery.[/quote] hmmm

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;52662993]hmmm[/QUOTE] Good statistic to know, but I have known the numbers were around there for quite awhile. [editline]9th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LuaChobo;52663008]take the time into reading the differences between dysphoria and dysmorphia epic zingers about stuff you dont really know much about dont really work[/QUOTE] I am fairly aware of the procedure. There is a fantastic Louis Theroux documentary that kind of highlights on the basics of it.

[QUOTE=gtanoofa;52663073]I watched the documentary. My only issue with the NHS treatment is the huge wait times(sometimes it takes years to get an appointment) and the whole "we need a year to see if we can give you hormones" when you manage to get an appointment. I think a year is excessive. The transgirl herself is really selfish and not a very bright example of a person who contributes to society. Drinking massively, constantly hitting on boys, partying hard even though she is underage and being a prostitute 17???? Few employers would like to have a visible person or just a transperson in their businesses which is why a lot of trans people turn to cam work and prostitution which again is NOT an excuse for her since she just ran away from home because her mom wouldn't let her stay away from home, drunk and in the danger of being discriminated against. And you're right she is a liar and tricks people. I personally think you should inform someone you're a transgender person before you engage in something like kissing and sexual intercourse. Also The narrator says some transphobic stuff like "she also wants to act like the girls" which is usual in such documentaries. [editline]9th September 2017[/editline] Couldn't they find a more modest transgirl to make this documentary?[/QUOTE] Turns out she is just an awful person objectively and pure unadulterated chav. I can see how the wait times suck, but that is a typical national healthcare problem in alot of situations, and it does kind of have its use of seeing if a person is truly seriously on the matter. But you are right, she represents the bottom of the bottom. Which is why it is kind of sad the documentary didn't just focus on the other chick who they bring in later to try and help her.

why in the arse would they give hormones to a 12 year old when it's not medically required.. this is absurd and destructive.

I wonder, is it possible that the kid was harassed because he was trans during the more formative years where children are pretty much dicks? Might be a case of peer pressure gone awry (or conversely, that he was told off that he was girly and took it to heart till he got over it).

[QUOTE=CunningHam;52662942]"A teacher can transition a child without parental knowledge or consent." Fucking what.[/QUOTE] The Safe Schools program is a favourite target of weird far-right Christians here. You start something to tell high school students it's ok to be gay, and they think it's indoctrination to brainwash children into being sex slaves for gay pedophile teachers.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52661411]apparently it's much higher though: [URL]https://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth[/URL] 20% unacceptably high figure, especially if it makes the quality of life for those who regret it much worse[/QUOTE] first of all, I can't seem to find that review. secondly, I don't know whether it actually states that 20% of people regret it, or what their specific regrets are, or if the guardian is simply making shit up that the study doesn't say (conflating an 18% suicide rate with 18% regret rate?) there are many other studies from around the same time that state the opposite - a low incidence of post-operative regret, assuming proper differential diagnosis, the RLE test, and a good surgical outcome [URL]http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm[/URL] (actually I suggest reading this) [quote] Although there is still some disagreement as to how gender dysphoria begins and who should qualify for hormonal and surgical intervention, there is a remarkable amount of agreement in several important areas. Most psychologists now agree that gender dysphoria qualifies as a subject of clinical attention separate from other disorders. Further, most clinicians agree that the gender identity beliefs these people hold are profound, deep seated, and non-delusional. Even more significantly, outcome studies now clearly indicate that when three conditions are met: a proper differential diagnosis, a significantly long trial period of living in the gender of choice, and a satisfactory surgical result, there is only a small incidence of post-operative regret. Indeed, in a review of the outcome literature Pfafflin (1992) reports that less than 1% of the female-to-male transsexuals who had undergone sex reassignment had any regrets. For male-to-female transsexuals the number was slightly higher at less than 2%. Later studies supporting Pfafflin's report include Bodlund O. et al., (1996); Cohen-Kettenis P.T (1997); Exner, K. et al., (1995); Rakic, Z. et al., (1996), and Smith Y. L. et al., (2001). It should be noted that satisfaction is measured by self report of improvement in the individual's psychosocial well being.[/quote] people also seem to assume this "regret" means "whoops, turns out I was actually a [original assigned sex] instead of a man/woman, too bad I ruined my life" and not "being trans in the 90s is so excruciatingly difficult that I wonder what it'd be like if I'd just stuck out the GID in my assigned gender role". it's barely ever that simple. take a personal account from game developer danielle bunden berry, who transitioned in the 90s and had SRS, [URL="https://web.archive.org/web/20110725030149/http://www.anticlockwise.com/dani/personal/changes/dont.htm"]later regretting it[/URL] [quote]Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming.[B] You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen [/B]and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say. That's advice I wish someone had given me. I had the sex change, I "pass" fine, my career is good but you can't imagine the number of times I've wished I could go back and see if there was another way. Despite following the rules and being as honest as I could with the medical folks at each stage, nobody stopped me and said "Are you honest to God absolutely sure this is the ONLY path for you?!" To the contrary, the voices were all cheerfully supportive of my decision. I was fortunate that the web didn't exist then - there are too damn many cheerleaders ready to reassure themselves of their own decision by parading their "successful" surgeries and encouraging others. [B]I can speak the transgender party line that I was a female trapped in a male body and I remember feeling this way since I was 4[/B]. But, it's never that easy if you look at it sincerely and without preconception. There's little question that a mid-life crisis, a divorce and a cancer scare were involved in at least the timing of my sex-change decision. To be completely honest at this point (3 yrs post-op) is not easy, however, I'm not sure I would do it again. I'm now concerned that much of what I took as a gender dysfunction might have been nothing more than a neurotic sexual obsession. I was a cross-dresser for all of my sexual life and had always fantasized going fem as an ultimate turn-on. Ironically, when I began hormone treatment my libido went away. However, I mistook that relief from sexual obsession for validation of my gender change. [B]Then in the final bit of irony, after surgery my new genitals were non-orgasmic (like 80% of my TG sisters).[/B] So, needless to say, my life as a woman is not an ultimate turn-on. And what did it all cost?[B] Over $30,000 and the loss of most of my relationships to family and friends. And the costs don't end. Every relationship I make now and in the future has to come to terms with the sex-change. And I'm not the only one who suffers. I hate the impact this will have on my kids and their future.[/B] [B]Anyway, I'm making it sound awful and it's not. There are some perks[/B] but the important things like being comfortable with myself and having a true love in my life don't seem like they were contingent on the change. Being my "real self" could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice.[B] I miss my easy access to my kids (unlike many TS's I didn't completely lose access to them though), I miss my family and old friends (I know they "shouldn't" have abandoned me but lots of folks aren't as open minded as they "should" be ... I still miss them)[/B] and finally, I hate the disconnect with my past (there's just no way to integrate the two unrelated lives). There's any number of ways to express your gender and sexuality and the only one I tried was the big one. I'll never know if I could have found a compromise that might have worked a lot better than the "one size fits all" sex-change. Please, check it out yourself before you do likewise.[/quote] so it sounds like regret. but read between the lines a bit here. the chief complaint is that she is anorgasmic (a bad surgical result) and she mentions "the cost": [quote]And what did it all cost? Over $30,000 and the loss of most of my relationships to family and friends. And the costs don't end. Every relationship I make now and in the future has to come to terms with the sex-change. And I'm not the only one who suffers. I hate the impact this will have on my kids and their future.[/quote] back in the 90s, 80s, being trans was far more of a social nightmare than it is even now. it's not exaggerating to say that post-op trans folks were routinely disowned by their families, not allowed to see their kids, etc. there was no positive representation in media. this is the "cost" she's talking about. it appears to be "oh god I wish I hadn't destroyed my dick" but "oh god I wish I hadn't been completely socially isolated at every turn after the operation". I dunno. just keep this in mind. [editline]9th September 2017[/editline] anecdotally, if you ask the trans community what they regret, the #1 thing is pretty much always [I]not transitioning sooner[/I]

[QUOTE=Tudd;52662863]Yah, it is more equivalent to cutting one's dick off. :v:[/QUOTE] I'm not convinced that you care all that much about trans people and telling a joke like this isn't helping.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52663683]I'm not convinced that you care all that much about trans people and telling a joke like this isn't helping.[/QUOTE] Since when did Facepunch gets so sensitive over jokes. I cant believe there is actually a debate on here whether or not its okay for a 12 year old to make their own choices on such serious medical related issue. I mean the kid probably just started puberty a few months ago, do any of you know how much shit goes on hormone wise during this time? Just let the kid grow up first jesus, if you cant trust them to drive why trust them to do shit like this? Parents should be charged or atleast interviewed if they make such rash choices that lasts forever on their child.

[QUOTE=Sky King;52663951]Parents should be charged or atleast interviewed if they make such rash choices that lasts forever on their child.[/QUOTE] Well good news, they were! In fact, the 60 minutes piece comes out Sunday.

[QUOTE=Sky King;52663951]Since when did Facepunch gets so sensitive over jokes.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure why people care so much about trans people's genitalia

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52664111]I'm not sure why people care so much about trans people's genitalia[/QUOTE] What are you even talking about? Tudd made an meh joke and you gotten over offended about it. Havent seen anybody in this thread so far saying trans shouldnt be allowed to have sex changes or anything close to that.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52664111]I'm not sure why people care so much about trans people's genitalia[/QUOTE] What does that have to do with being sensitive over jokes?

[QUOTE=Sky King;52664116]What are you even talking about? Tudd made an meh joke and you gotten over offended about it. Havent seen anybody in this thread so far saying trans shouldnt be allowed to have sex changes or anything close to that.[/QUOTE] I'm not really offended but I appreciate that we can agree that Tudd is being a dingus

[QUOTE=Sky King;52664116]What are you even talking about? Tudd made an meh joke and you gotten over offended about it.[/QUOTE] Strangely enough there's a massive difference between being offended over something and finding something completely unfunny, especially when in context of someone who has a history of claiming to be supportive of transgender people while acting otherwise.

you guys really shouldn't opine about things you have no knowledge of. having such vehement demands for transition to be off limits until someone turns 18 could very easily do more damage than good. people who are under 18 aren't as clueless as you all seem to think, and frankly i'm a little disgusted by how you all seem to wish for them to be controlled by other people who might not have their best interests in mind.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52665845]I dunno man, maybe because I work in emergency medicine and pick up at least one transgender adult per week who's having an episode of suicidal tendencies/severe anxiety attacks/massive depressive episodes.. maybe that has something to do with the fact that I don't believe in letting someone under the age of consent undergo a major life changing series of procedures, especially when we don't even understand the exact effects of what we're doing, especially because we don't even understand what we're diagnosing.[/QUOTE] After puberty happens, it's harder for a person to transition. I can see why people would rush to get it done quicker. [QUOTE=Sky King;52664116]What are you even talking about? Tudd made an meh joke and you gotten over offended about it.[/QUOTE] It was mean spirited and inappropriate. Usually jokes have a punch line or irony. That had neither. You guys must be fun at parties.

Kinda sad... I mean it was done in the child's best interest. As far as I know, the earlier you start your transition the easier it will be. The difficulty is figuring out how young is too young...

[QUOTE=angelangel;52666064]Kinda sad... I mean it was done in the child's best interest. As far as I know, the earlier you start your transition the easier it will be. The difficulty is figuring out how young is too young...[/QUOTE] This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It's just an overall shitty situation to be in. There's basically 4 outcomes if you're 12 and think you're transgender: - Transition at 12 before puberty starts and live a normal life - Transition at 12, realize you were wrong, and carry scars for the rest of your life - Wait until 18 and realize you don't want to transition, live a normal life - Wait until 18 and realize you're still want to transition, carry scars for the rest of your life It's basically a 50/50 chance of fucking your life up.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52665845]I dunno man, maybe because I work in emergency medicine and pick up at least one transgender adult per week who's having an episode of suicidal tendencies/severe anxiety attacks/massive depressive episodes.. maybe that has something to do with the fact that I don't believe in letting someone under the age of consent undergo a major life changing series of procedures, especially when we don't even understand the exact effects of what we're doing, especially because we don't even understand what we're diagnosing. Because if adults are having a hard time with this shit, imagine how hard a kid would have it. Also "people under 18 aren't as clueless as you'd think", I'm aware of this, i'm aware of the fact that children/teens can be extremely intelligent.. but that doesn't mean they're capable of making a fully logical decision, especially considering the part of your mind that handles logic and reasoning isn't fully developed until ~25. So maybe I understand that they're not clueless, but maybe I also understand that they don't have every faculty needed to make this choice. I find it hilarious and sad at the same time that people want to politicize medicine, something that should absolutely be off limits for politics. But no, people are going to push their own (laughable) agenda on the medical community, all while not understanding that we're wading in waters that are almost completely untested. The shear fact of the matter is, we're developing new techniques and collecting new data every day, in 5 years we could discover that we've been ENTIRELY wrong about this topic, and people will STILL argue politics over data. The amount of actual, hard scientific studies of the topic at hand is abysmally low, we need more data, we need more studies, we need to understand this thing fully, and we're not going to be able to do that with the left screaming "OMG EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE EVERYTHING" and the right screaming "NO SUCH THING AS TRANS". Let us do our jobs, keep politics out of this. We don't care about left or right, we just want people to be able to live the best lives that they can. If that means giving hormones to someone, then so be it, if that involves therapy, then so be it, but we need data so that we stop spitballing this shit.[/QUOTE] You understand most of the people you are picking up for suicide arnt because they have access to hormones and a lot more to do with societal acceptance right? Doesn't feel super relevant to discussing age of transition in the way it sounds like you are. Perhaps I'm misreading but it sounds like your saying the fact trans people commit suicide is a reason not to treat them? This kid was absolutely too young to be taking estrogen. The main goal in transitioning young is a better "passing rate", the trans person will look more like a non-trans person of the same gender. This makes for better acceptance and safety in our current society, particularly for MTF transitioners where a lot of the effects of Testosterone are one way and can't be easily removed (this is less of an issue for FTM transitioners who's main issue is top surgery and hormones handle most other outwardly visible elements). In the current Canadian system a kid can take blockers, but wont typically be able to start cross-gender hormone treatment until they are at like 16 (at which age studies suggest gender dysphoria is pretty set and regrets are low, where at younger ages its very variable). This allows a better passing appearance and to wait for a better age before allowing irreversible changes. We currently have a 13yr old transgirl in my local trans support group who is on puberty blockers for the time being. The doc is negotiating with her, and her family, when will be best for her to start estrogen. The main thing we are lacking is studies in the effects of hormone blockers, they have been used shorter term for girls with early puberty for some time, but not so long as to wait till they are 14-16. Some studies have suggested it is ok, but of course we don't have near enough on that scale to be fully useful. I do think this set up for the system works pretty well for the time being, and now it is being done studies can be conducted to make sure we arn't causing any additional health issues. Although I disagree with the way this particular instance came around, having a single instance of regret also isn't a reason to assume the whole program is bad either, there are many others who haven't regretted it. edit: You know I didn't pick it up the first time but did they say that he was literally taking her prescription oestrogen? Can't tell if its just like...bait or if they were literally using her prescription cause that explains a lot of how he got it so young.

[QUOTE=Rhenae;52666197]The kid was absolutely too young to be taking estrogen. Although I disagree with the way this particular instance came around, having a single instance of regret also isn't a reason to assume the whole program is bad either, there are many others who haven't regretted it.[/QUOTE] I think it wasn't the medicine nor the produces that were at fault, but rather the individual. It reads like a outrage article because it's being "hotly debated". The issue is, as usual with things of this nature, conservative fear mongering. Trans people make up a small portion of the population. Airing regret stories is extremely toxic towards the acceptance movement. I think it's actually quite pitiful and manipulative. "Oh the liberals are turning the kids into gays!" It's not really a big of an issue as it seems.

[QUOTE=WhiteGirl88;52666354][B]I think it wasn't the medicine nor the produces that were at fault, but rather the individual. [/B] It reads like a outrage article because it's being "hotly debated". The issue is, as usual with things of this nature, conservative fear mongering. Trans people make up a small portion of the population. Airing regret stories is extremely toxic towards the acceptance movement. I think it's actually quite pitiful and manipulative. "Oh the liberals are turning the kids into gays!" It's not really a big of an issue as it seems.[/QUOTE] This is true, especially since it sounds like they went outside the established system to do it, but we do need to look at how to balance these systems to make sure they work with minimum damage to either side. Gay kids are disproportionately likely to be gender non-conforming when they are kids and there are people who raise legitimate concern especially around gay kids getting misdiagnosed as trans because of it. I do wish we could have the discussion properly without having to argue that it should exist at all though, would make things much easier.