12-year-old boy who transitioned to female has now changed their mind. - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Rhenae;52666369]This is true, especially since it sounds like they went outside the established system to do it, but we do need to look at how to balance these systems to make sure they work with minimum damage to either side. Gay kids are disproportionately likely to be gender non-conforming when they are kids and there are people who raise legitimate concern especially around gay kids getting misdiagnosed as trans because of it. I do wish we could have the discussion properly without having to argue that it should exist at all though, would make things much easier.[/QUOTE] Minimum damages would be letting underage kid have their bodys actually develop before doing unreversable changes. Even if a Doctor did this it would've been an horrible idea. It was unresponsible use by the parent and would've been unresponsible if it was by a doctor anyways. [B]Most gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria, and do so by adolescence. Usually grow up as healthy adults(gay or straight)[/B] [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25231780[/url] [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194003[/url] If somebody his age really felt like their dysphoria is that bad then they are alternatives that would've helped that isn't permanent.

[QUOTE=Rhenae;52666369]I do wish we could have the discussion properly without having to argue that it should exist at all though, would make things much easier.[/QUOTE] [I]Good luck! Teachers and pedophiles are grooming young kids to be girly gay guys and cutting off their willy! It's an epidemic![/I] It's such an emotionally charged issue that's being politicized. I'm a firm believer in the WPATH being successful and that transgender resources being more accessible will do more good than harm. If we could ook past the fallacies, fear mongering, and bias from both sides and it would do the LGBT movement as a whole a lot of good. Also take note of how anti-Transgender activists ignore the existence of FTM people. Odd ain't it?

[QUOTE=Sky King;52666389]Minimum damages would be letting underage kid have their bodys actually develop before doing unreversable changes. Even if a Doctor did this it would've been an horrible idea. It was unresponsible use by the parent and would've been unresponsible if it was by a doctor anyways. [B]Most gender dysphoric children outgrow their dysphoria, and do so by adolescence. Usually grow up as healthy adults(gay or straight)[/B] [URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25231780[/URL] [URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194003[/URL] If somebody his age really felt like their dysphoria is that bad then they are alternatives that would've helped that isn't permanent.[/QUOTE] Yes, most who will outgrow do by adolescence which is exactly why most standards list 14-16 as the age range where treatments can actually be considered. Hormone blockers are used because allowing that development causes significant problems for trans people who do persist with gender dysphoria past that point. Were it avoided FTMs would not need top surgery and MTFs wouldn't be at such huge risk for possibly standing out because of the masculinized face and deeper voice they develop because of testosterone prior. Transwomen who can afford it go through voice therapy and often facial feminization surgeries just to make up for things which wouldn't have needed to happen. That is why the standards are as they are. Its damage reduction from both sides. Hormone blockers can be taken to minimize effects of hormones at puberty allowing for a delay time for kids who will outgrow it to do so and grace time for those who wont to be properly identified and then go into cross-hormone treatment and minimize the later problems they have because of it. [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=WhiteGirl88;52666391][I]Good luck! Teachers and pedophiles are grooming young kids to be girly gay guys and cutting off their willy! It's an epidemic![/I] It's such an emotionally charged issue that's being politicized. I'm a firm believer in the WPATH being successful and that transgender resources being more accessible will do more good than harm. If we could ook past the fallacies, fear mongering, and bias from both sides and it would do the LGBT movement as a whole a lot of good. Also take note of how anti-Transgender activists ignore the existence of FTM people. Odd ain't it?[/QUOTE] Absolutely. We can't just ignore the issues either though and forge ahead without consideration, we also arn't going to win over people who have concerns by ignoring them. WPATH has done a pretty solid job setting up systems thus far. For now we just need to see how they go to tweak as necessary. Edit: Also yes it's incredibly irritating how FTMs are always conveniently forgotten or entirely disregarded. (by both the anti- and pro- movement in my experience actually)

[QUOTE=Not64;52666128]This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It's just an overall shitty situation to be in. There's basically 4 outcomes if you're 12 and think you're transgender: - Transition at 12 before puberty starts and live a normal life - Transition at 12, realize you were wrong, and carry scars for the rest of your life - Wait until 18 and realize you don't want to transition, live a normal life - Wait until 18 and realize you're still want to transition, carry scars for the rest of your life It's basically a 50/50 chance of fucking your life up.[/QUOTE] 50/50 is bad odds. at least after puberty you'll be more sure about it [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=PelPix123;52666351]Because they can't afford it. [/QUOTE] there's more than can't afford it there. men are conditioned to protect their balls, whether by verbal means or physical experience. think back to the last time you got kicked in the balls, remember how much it hurt? remember falling to the ground and sobbing? now imagine that, except instead of a foot, it's a knife. I've considered transitioning a hundred times and given the right financial situation I would, but the one thing I wouldn't touch is my junk. genitals have little to do with gender whether it's pre transition or post transition and between that and my fear of testicular injury even if I could afford a transition I'd still be wary about my balls. also just because only 21% (14%? I never know with these surveys. the general attitude has changed in the past 20 or so years and left me totally in the dark, I never know whether "trans men" is referring to mtf or ftm or vice versa. tbh we need to drop trans and call them either men or women or for scientific terms ftm or mtf) of transgender men have no interest in having genital surgery doesn't mean 79% intend to. it could very well mean that 79% are undecided, and that 79% undecided could very well turn into 79% having no interest. you can't skew statistics for your whims. that's dishonest at best, actively malicious at worst. which are you?

[QUOTE=butre;52666456]now imagine that, except instead of a foot, it's a knife.[/QUOTE] And imagine you're under anesthesia???

I know that Gender Dysphoria can be terrible, but couldn't they have waited until the kid was 18 for something that important? I was hesitant to even get a tattoo for a while, i can't even imagine having to decide on something this important at a point in my life where i thought Xbox was one of the most important things in my life at the time.

[QUOTE=butre;52666456]50/50 is bad odds. at least after puberty you'll be more sure about it [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] there's more than can't afford it there. men are conditioned to protect their balls, whether by verbal means or physical experience. think back to the last time you got kicked in the balls, remember how much it hurt? remember falling to the ground and sobbing? now imagine that, except instead of a foot, it's a knife. I've considered transitioning a hundred times and given the right financial situation I would, but the one thing I wouldn't touch is my junk. genitals have little to do with gender whether it's pre transition or post transition and between that and my fear of testicular injury even if I could afford a transition I'd still be wary about my balls. also just because only 21% (14%? I never know with these surveys. the general attitude has changed in the past 20 or so years and left me totally in the dark, I never know whether "trans men" is referring to mtf or ftm or vice versa. tbh we need to drop trans and call them either men or women or for scientific terms ftm or mtf) of transgender men have no interest in having genital surgery doesn't mean 79% intend to. it could very well mean that 79% are undecided, and that 79% undecided could very well turn into 79% having no interest. you can't skew statistics for your whims. that's dishonest at best, actively malicious at worst. which are you?[/QUOTE] trans men are ftm, trans women are mtf. congratulations you now know something you could've learned in seconds with some very light googling. the "trans" part can of course be dropped when it isn't relevant so i don't know what you're on about with that.

[QUOTE=PelPix123;52666482]you're very aggressively talking to a trans victim of very traumatic genital mutilation that they have ptsd over about genital mutilation [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] all i wanted to do was assert the reality that many trans people do experience very severe physical dysphoria and point out that hinging an argument on that fact alone is allowing the opposite side to pull you down to their nit-picking level and allowing them to discredit your character by discrediting your picked nits. it's an argumentative tactic and i didn't want the person i quoted to fall for it [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] please take your unsettling, borderline-obsessive preoccupation with testicular injury somewhere else. it's really disconcerting so i'm prolly gonna have to bail on this topic[/QUOTE] idk what you're getting at, this whole post is full on word salad I'm sorry that I got kicked in the balls once I guess?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52665845]I dunno man, maybe because I work in emergency medicine and pick up at least one transgender adult per week who's having an episode of suicidal tendencies/severe anxiety attacks/massive depressive episodes.. maybe that has something to do with the fact that I don't believe in letting someone under the age of consent undergo a major life changing series of procedures, especially when we don't even understand the exact effects of what we're doing, especially because we don't even understand what we're diagnosing. Because if adults are having a hard time with this shit, imagine how hard a kid would have it. Also "people under 18 aren't as clueless as you'd think", I'm aware of this, i'm aware of the fact that children/teens can be extremely intelligent.. but that doesn't mean they're capable of making a fully logical decision, especially considering the part of your mind that handles logic and reasoning isn't fully developed until ~25. So maybe I understand that they're not clueless, but maybe I also understand that they don't have every faculty needed to make this choice. I find it hilarious and sad at the same time that people want to politicize medicine, something that should absolutely be off limits for politics. But no, people are going to push their own (laughable) agenda on the medical community, all while not understanding that we're wading in waters that are almost completely untested. The shear fact of the matter is, we're developing new techniques and collecting new data every day, in 5 years we could discover that we've been ENTIRELY wrong about this topic, and people will STILL argue politics over data. The amount of actual, hard scientific studies of the topic at hand is abysmally low, we need more data, we need more studies, we need to understand this thing fully, and we're not going to be able to do that with the left screaming "OMG EVERYONE DESERVES TO BE EVERYTHING" and the right screaming "NO SUCH THING AS TRANS". Let us do our jobs, keep politics out of this. We don't care about left or right, we just want people to be able to live the best lives that they can. If that means giving hormones to someone, then so be it, if that involves therapy, then so be it, but we need data so that we stop spitballing this shit.[/QUOTE] so what about people who want to transition at 14 and are prevented from doing so until they're 18 but they still want to transition. you're talking about not politicizing gender but that's exactly what you're doing [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] people really aren't that complicated. some of us have known very well what we want from a young age and don't need someone muddying the waters with their "opinions" on what is right and wrong. i'll put what i want in my body, thank you very much. transgenderism isn't a mental illness by the way. so maybe don't act like you're the authority on gender issues because you work in emergency medicine.

[QUOTE=cowsaysoink;52666575]trans men are ftm, trans women are mtf. congratulations you now know something you could've learned in seconds with some very light googling. the "trans" part can of course be dropped when it isn't relevant so i don't know what you're on about with that.[/QUOTE] it's not a matter of I'm confused, it's a matter of everyone over 30 being confused because "trans man" used to mean man that transitioned to woman if that's the only part of what I said that you have to pick apart I'm doing pretty good in scientific terms ftm or mtf is less ambiguous and in conversational terms man or woman is sufficient. I can't speak for anyone else, but I just find trans man and trans woman to be insulting. pointing out the trans part would make me feel like I'm not totally a woman [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=pith_;52666582]so what about people who want to transition at 14 and are prevented from doing so until they're 18 but they still want to transition. you're talking about not politicizing gender but that's exactly what you're doing [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] people really aren't that complicated. some of us have known very well what we want from a young age and don't need someone muddying the waters with their "opinions" on what is right and wrong. i'll put what i want in my body, thank you very much. transgenderism isn't a mental illness by the way. so maybe don't act like you're the authority on gender issues because you work in emergency medicine.[/QUOTE] I mean I've "known" from a young age but everyone thought they knew everything when they were a kid. I didn't really full on know until a couple of years ago. if I went on every whim I had at 14 I'd be dead or in jail.

[QUOTE=butre;52666585]it's not a matter of I'm confused[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=butre;52666456]I never know whether "trans men" is referring to mtf or ftm or vice versa.[/QUOTE] What? It's a pretty glaring issue. Why wouldn't it be obvious lmao.

[QUOTE=butre;52666585]I mean I've "known" from a young age but everyone thought they knew everything when they were a kid. I disn't really full on know until a couple of years ago[/QUOTE] it varies. i'm getting pretty tired of hearing people say "your brain isn't fully developed until you're 25." i guess anybody under the age of 25 isn't responsible for any decision they make. or because they have some sort of anecdotal experience with transpeople that confirms their preconceived notions of what it is, and how being trans affects those people. what about all the early transition success stories? do you think we should fucking retcon their genders because they're too dumb to really know what they're doing?

[QUOTE=butre;52666585]it's not a matter of I'm confused, it's a matter of everyone over 30 being confused because "trans man" used to mean man that transitioned to woman if that's the only part of what I said that you have to pick apart I'm doing pretty good [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] I mean I've "known" from a young age but everyone thought they knew everything when they were a kid. I disn't really full on know until a couple of years ago[/QUOTE] i see. i wasn't aware that it was typically used the other way around, sorry. i guess it was changed because it was so insensitive before. as for the rest of your post i didn't respond because it's all drivel. no need for the cocky comment.

[QUOTE=pith_;52666598]it varies. i'm getting pretty tired of hearing people say "your brain isn't fully developed until you're 25." i guess anybody under the age of 25 isn't responsible for any decision they make. or because they have some sort of anecdotal experience with transpeople that confirms their preconceived notions of what it is, and how being trans affects those people. what about all the early transition success stories? do you think we should fucking retcon their genders because they're too dumb to really know what they're doing?[/QUOTE] for every early transition success story there's a late transition success story. I know a person who transitioned at 34 and shes one of the prettiest girls I know. I can't speak for her psychologically but she came out of the transition pretty damn good physically. that said, I can't speak for any 12 year old on their psychology either.

oh yeah, and another thing. sex reassignment surgery isn't an inherent part of transition. [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/02/09/heres-how-sex-reassignment-surgery-works/"]only about 30 percent of trans people ever get surgery. [/URL]so to say "wow, deciding to chop off your dick at age 12 is insane" is pretty ignorant. so someone decides they don't want to transition anymore. they stop taking hormones. big deal.

[QUOTE=WhiteGirl88;52666591]What? It's a pretty glaring issue. Why wouldn't it be obvious lmao.[/QUOTE] if you read the rest of that first quore you wouldn't have to be asking any questions [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=pith_;52666613]oh yeah, and another thing. sex reassignment surgery isn't an inherent part of transition. [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/02/09/heres-how-sex-reassignment-surgery-works/"]only about 30 percent of trans people ever get surgery. [/URL]so to say "wow, deciding to chop off your dick at age 12 is insane" is pretty ignorant. so someone decides they don't want to transition anymore. they stop taking hormones. big deal.[/QUOTE] it's not quite as easy as "stop taking them" unless you're like 8. hormones do more to your body than the immediate effects, and it takes months or years for your body to reach its old equilibrium again. if you're fully transitioned at say 30 years old (full transition takes a while, 30 would be roughly consistent with an average starting age of 24) and decide it's not for you then it may be another decade before your body reaches its old equilibrium. saying "just stop taking the pills lol" is ignorant at best

[QUOTE=butre;52666611]for every early transition success story there's a late transition success story. I know a person who transitioned at 34 and shes one of the prettiest girls I know. I can't speak for her psychologically but she came out of the transition pretty damn good physically. that said, I can't speak for any 12 year old on their psychology either.[/QUOTE] i can see where people are coming from but i also see a lot of ignorance and a lot of flat out objectification of children in this thread and it's disappointing it's probably a radical, otherworldly idea for me to say that i believe it's completely possible for someone to have a consistent trans identity from childhood into adulthood, until death. and i believe those people should be able to get HRT under certain circumstances. not that appalling. but trans is a boogeyman to the uninitiated. nobody who hasn't experienced it would really be able to understand it. that's what it seems like, anyway. everyone thinks it's a mental illness and it's just sad. [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=butre;52666614]it's not quite as easy as "stop taking them" unless you're like 8. hormones do more to your body than the immediate effects, and it takes months or years for your body to reach its old equilibrium again[/QUOTE] right but it's not a matter of life and death. your life isn't "over" if you take some hormones for a few years and then stop. that one guy said "a 50/50 chance to ruin your life." please. people are so dramatic about this sort of thing.

Honestly coming from someone with a loose medical background (former EMT) and a transgender person, kids should not be given hormones before the age of 18, maaaaybe 16 in certain circumstances. Does HRT have better effects the younger you are? Generally speaking, yeah. If I had started HRT as a kid I probably would not have a gravelly deep voice. But kids are irrational. I was [I]defenitely[/I] an irrational little shit myself. No matter how intelligent a kid may be they are not able to make decisions like this clearly. Brain development goes mad during puberty, and add to the fact that hormones, if taken during/before adolescence have much more of a pronounced effect on the body you had better be damn sure that is what you want, and we can't be sure with kids. Socially transitioning is a much safer way to transition as a child. Of course, for many transpeople like myself body/gender dysphoria is a huge part of personal issues they may face, but there is still steps they can take such as blockers (controversial as they may be) and, when they come of age, they should be in a better head space to know and understand what they truly want.

[QUOTE=pith_;52666622]i can see where people are coming from but i also see a lot of ignorance and a lot of flat out objectification of children in this thread and it's disappointing it's probably a radical, otherworldly idea for me to say that i believe it's completely possible for someone to have a consistent trans identity from childhood into adulthood, until death. and i believe those people should be able to get HRT under certain circumstances. not that appalling. but trans is a boogeyman to the uninitiated. nobody who hasn't experienced it would really be able to understand it. that's what it seems like, anyway. everyone thinks it's a mental illness and it's just sad. [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] right but it's not a matter of life and death. your life isn't "over" if you take some hormones for a few years and then stop. that one guy said "a 50/50 chance to ruin your life." please. people are so dramatic about this sort of thing.[/QUOTE] maybe it's not life and death, but it may as well be. look at the suicide rates for trans people. they're not triple the average for nothing.

[QUOTE]Shkreli attended Hunter College High School. He dropped out before his senior year due to a lack of interest,[23] but received the credits necessary for his diploma through a program that placed him in an internship at Wall Street hedge fund Cramer, Berkowitz and Company[21] when he was 17.[13][24] Sources differ on whether Shkreli graduated from Hunter[20] or whether he received sufficient credits there but actually graduated from City-As-School High School.[25][/QUOTE] look i know shkreli isn't exactly liked but this is just some food for thought for anyone saying "if you're under the age of 18 you can't [I]possibly[/I] make a rational decision." i know he's in trouble with the law but he's had a net worth higher than any of us will probably experience so. just worth considering. [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=butre;52666632]maybe it's not life and death, but it may as well be. look at the suicide rates for trans people. they're not triple the average for nothing.[/QUOTE] probably because of transphobic fucks saying shit like "if you transition you'll ruin your life" "50/50 chance to ruin your life" i mean seriously so trans people allegedly kill themselves at a higher frequency. i don't know much about that so i can't really say, but it definitely seems like society's attitude towards the whole thing might play a part in that.

[QUOTE=butre;52666632]maybe it's not life and death, but it may as well be. look at the suicide rates for trans people. they're not triple the average for nothing.[/QUOTE] The suicide statistic is a self-fulfilling prophesy unfortunately. People use it as an excuse to label trans people as mentally ill, to gatekeep their treatment and stigmatize their existence. The poor treatment contributes to social isolation and depression, and contributes to suicidal behavior. Lots of trans people, including myself, aren't depressed because we're trans. We're depressed because people who have no business deciding what's good for us decide to use their self-righteousness to piss all over our lives. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but that's what plenty of people out there are doing. If they'd knock it off, our suicide rate would decline significantly.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;52666644]The suicide statistic is a self-fulfilling prophesy unfortunately. People use it as an excuse to label trans people as mentally ill, to gatekeep their treatment and stigmatize their existence. The poor treatment contributes to social isolation and depression, and contributes to suicidal behavior. Lots of trans people, including myself, aren't depressed because we're trans. We're depressed because people who have no business deciding what's good for us decide to use their self-righteousness to piss all over our lives. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but that's what plenty of people out there are doing. If they'd knock it off, our suicide rate would decline significantly.[/QUOTE] this and also a lot of these posters reek of concern trolling to me, but that's just my opinion [editline]10th September 2017[/editline] "i really actually care about trans people, which is why, in my """qualified""" opinion as a medical professional, we should gatekeep them, just to keep them safe"

I think it is also important to note that undergoing your first few years of HRT is essentially going through a second puberty, and for some people this can mean bouts of depression and things like self-harm like you see in teenagers. Of course this is not the case for every transperson just like it's not the case for every teenager. The hostility some groups exhibit to transgender people can also be an issue (although, in my experience, this has largely improved in most areas)

[QUOTE=pith_;52666582]transgenderism isn't a mental illness by the way. so maybe don't act like you're the authority on gender issues because you work in emergency medicine.[/QUOTE] if it isn't an illness, then why does it need medical treatment and insurance coverage?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52666967]if it isn't an illness, then why does it need medical treatment and insurance coverage?[/QUOTE] Because undergoing physical changes to your body via surgery requires, shocking I know, surgery. And if you're going to undergo surgery, it's a good idea to have insurance, lest you want to pay a few hundred thousand dollars, or the off chance something goes wrong. All of us arguing and being dicks aside, I hope the kid gets himself into a good position where he's happy with who he is. Worst case people think he's a freak. We're not in the 60's anymore.

[QUOTE=SlickBlade;52666979]Because undergoing physical changes to your body via surgery requires, shocking I know, surgery. And if you're going to undergo surgery, it's a good idea to have insurance, lest you want to pay a few hundred thousand dollars, or the off chance something goes wrong. All of us arguing and being dicks aside, I hope the kid gets himself into a good position where he's happy with who he is. Worst case people think he's a freak. We're not in the 60's anymore.[/QUOTE] but if it isn't an actual illness, then it means it's not a medical problem and that the surgery required is actually for cosmetic purposes rather than to genuinely benefit the health of the individual either it's a mental condition and the medical treatment/insurance coverage is needed to actually treat the condition, or it isn't, and transitioning (with surgery, therapy, hormones, etc) is not medically required you can't have it both ways

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52666983]but if it isn't an actual illness, then it means it's not a medical problem and that the surgery required is actually for cosmetic purposes rather than to genuinely benefit the health of the individual either it's a mental condition and the medical treatment/insurance coverage is needed to actually treat the condition, or it isn't, and transitioning (with surgery, therapy, hormones, etc) is not medically required you can't have it both ways[/QUOTE] You can actually because you can be trans without going through any surgery or medication

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52666983]but if it isn't an actual illness, then it means it's not a medical problem and that the surgery required is actually for cosmetic purposes rather than to genuinely benefit the health of the individual either it's a mental condition and the medical treatment/insurance coverage is needed to actually treat the condition, or it isn't, and transitioning (with surgery, therapy, hormones, etc) is not medically required you can't have it both ways[/QUOTE] There are gray zones - in Denmark cosmetic surgery isn't covered by the national health insurance, but if you get a mastectomy because of breast cancer, reconstructive surgery is covered; that doesn't mean having only one breast is an illness. People can choose to have only one and be completely fine, after all, but we recognize that for people to feel good about their body, they'll want to have them reconstructed.

[QUOTE=Digivee;52662889][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/a1cpsLh.png[/IMG] :thinking: why do situations like these always turn into political pissingfests[/QUOTE] Because a lot of people don't see conflicts in grey or neutral, they want a narrative of good guys and bad guys in situations of personal and social health. A number would prefer a life where they can just fly to the top of a mountain without the constraints of our world as climbing the mountain is an arduous task.

Looks like the episode aired. Here's the full piece for those interested. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqSdcvIz4VI[/media]