Jewish leaders hit out over Iceland’s plans to ban boys’ circumcision - Sensationalist Headlines

[quote][B]Iceland’s[/B] internal affairs. And why should we care? The reason is that you are about to attack Judaism in a way that concerns [B]Jews all over the world[/B][/quote] What is their point even? Why should you care unless you're a jew in iceland?? I didn't know biting baby dicks was so integral to judaism. [QUOTE=Svinnik;53132862]thing is with circumcision is that it's literally the base of being a Jewish male, you cannot be a religious jewish male without it [/QUOTE] Do rabbis go around checking everyone's penises to see if you're a proper jewish male?

Don't cut dicks of babies they dont even know what's going on.

[QUOTE=Maximo13;53133827]What is their point even? Why should you care unless you're a jew in iceland?? I didn't know biting baby dicks was so integral to judaism. Do rabbis go around checking everyone's penises to see if you're a proper jewish male?[/QUOTE] They don't bite it off lmao they use a really sharp knife The reason that other Jewish communities care is because this sets a dangerous precedent of religious persecution that could spark similar laws in Europe. According to Jewish law, you basically can't do any Jewish rituals until you get a brit milah. A rabbi won't check but you'll be doing things wrong. [editline]15th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=Vodkavia;53132895]That's not how religion works, nobody can just tell you "ur not a trujew™" because you don't adhere to some arbitrary requirement. By that logic we've already banned Christianity and Islam due to the comparable barbaric and awful practices that exist in the past of just about every religion. Lot better than posts full of baseless assertions trying to defend the inexcusable.[/QUOTE] Judaism didn't have the various splits that Christianity had, until very recently there was only Orthodox Judaism. It's not like Christianity where you can just defect to a different sect. The religion is clear on who is a Jew and who isn't.

So I guess a dirty dick really is the gateway to genocide.

[QUOTE=black_tech;53133723]The thing is that, if it's banned, Jews, Muslims, other religions and traditionalists who practice circumcision will just continue the practice in secret, without proper equipment and knowledge which would just endanger kids even more.[/QUOTE] Yeah, some probably will, that's where the 'six year prison term' comes in. It's child abuse, through and through, the first step to phasing it out is punishing those criminals who do it. [QUOTE=Svinnik;53133971]The reason that other Jewish communities care is because this sets a dangerous precedent of religious persecution that could spark similar laws in Europe. According to Jewish law, you basically can't do any Jewish rituals until you get a brit milah. A rabbi won't check but you'll be doing things wrong.[/QUOTE] You have it backwards, the dangerous precedent is allowing body modifications for babies before they can consent to either their parents' religion or their choice of body mods. An infant's freedom to choose what to do with their religion and body is more important than some religious parents' freedom to abuse their children. If that's a cornerstone of Judaism, then fix Judaism. [editline]15th February 2018[/editline] Besides, forcing a religious ritual on your infant sons reeks of insecurity in your faith. If it must happen in their infancy, it sounds to me like you're pretty sure they're going to lose faith before they're 18.

Should be banned along with FGM, unless it's absolutely needed for medical reasons. Anyone that defends the general practice of this going on is honestly just culturally or religiously indoctrinated.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53133971]The reason that other Jewish communities care is because this sets a dangerous precedent of religious persecution that could spark similar laws in Europe. According to Jewish law, you basically can't do any Jewish rituals until you get a brit milah. A rabbi won't check but you'll be doing things wrong.[/QUOTE] I don't really think it sets any sort of precedent. People in Iceland have decided it's stupid to cut off baby foreskins. Pretty sure they aren't doing it because they hate jews, but because it's an antiquated practice that only has benefits for people with actual conditions like phimosis etc. It just so happens that jews do this for some reason.

I don't understand they defend so hastly the circumcision at such young ages. Just flip it over and make it when the boy is 18 years old and wants to continue, like Catholics with the "Confirmation".

[QUOTE=Duskin;53134037]Should be banned along with FGM, unless it's absolutely needed for medical reasons. Anyone that defends the general practice of this going on is honestly just culturally or religiously indoctrinated.[/QUOTE] Even then a lot of the time circumcision should be a last resort - a lot of problems that some surgeons would suggest circumcision for can be fixed with other lesser known procedures such as preputioplasty and frenuloplasty that have the advantage that they don't remove a huge amount of sensitive tissue like circumcision does.

[QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;53134059]I don't understand they defend so hastly the circumcision at such young ages. Just flip it over and make it when the boy is 18 years old and wants to continue, like Catholics with the "Confirmation".[/QUOTE] I think they probably know that a large number of 18 year old boys won't want to have their penises cut, and that'll be really inconvenient for them. They'd rather force it on their children when they're still infants than go through the trouble of convincing them to do it willingly.

[QUOTE=myon;53133357]can you tell me why circumsision is so important to judaism in the first place? why is it required in order to be a jew? how can one with foreskin be any less of a jew than someone without? why is this a hill you're set to die on? a lot of religion do actually encourage practices that are considered illegal in many countries. how many gays are being stoned in Iceland at the moment? which religions encourage the killing of gays, and why is it that they aren't given a complete blanket ban? this statement simply makes no sense to me.[/QUOTE] Circumcision is called Brit milah in Judaism, literally translating to "covenant of circumcision" It originated with God making a treaty with Avraham [QUOTE]7And I will establish My covenant between Me and between you and between your seed after you throughout their generations as an everlasting covenant, to be to you for a God and to your seed after you. 8And I will give you and your seed after you the land of your sojournings, the entire land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be to them for a God." 9And God said to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you throughout their generations. 10This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised. 11And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you. 12And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed. 13Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant. 14And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant." 19And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. 20And regarding Ishmael, I have heard you; behold I have blessed him, and I will make him fruitful, and I will multiply him exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.[/QUOTE] It's a clear-cut treaty, god will give the land of Canaan to Avraham's decendants and make them a great nation and in exchange, God will fulfill his end of the deal. It's pretty much the moment where God chooses the Jewish people as the chosen people and sets clear limits for them, it's practically the basis of Judaism to the point where the liberal Reform and Conservative movements do it and even secular Jews with no connection to Judaism do it. It's pretty important and banning it is the same as banning Judaism from your country.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53134075]It's a clear-cut treaty, god will give the land of Canaan to Avraham's decendants and make them a great nation and in exchange, God will fulfill his end of the deal. It's pretty much the moment where God chooses the Jewish people as the chosen people and sets clear limits for them, it's practically the basis of Judaism to the point where the liberal Reform and Conservative movements do it and even secular Jews with no connection to Judaism do it. It's pretty important and banning it is the same as banning Judaism from your country.[/QUOTE] Christianity moved Jesus' birthday. Judaism can postpone circumcision. Again, it reeks of insecurity and weakness if God wants to enter a 'covenant' with babies rather than adults who can reason.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53133971]Judaism didn't have the various splits that Christianity had, until very recently there was only Orthodox Judaism. It's not like Christianity where you can just defect to a different sect. The religion is clear on who is a Jew and who isn't.[/QUOTE] Then maybe now is a good time to start? Either adapt or drop your religion altogether. There's no place for child abuse in the modern world.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53134075] even secular Jews with no connection to Judaism do it.[/QUOTE] And US citizens with no connection to judaism do it too, doesn't mean it's not gross and unnecessary. [QUOTE=Svinnik;53134075]It's pretty important and banning it is the same as [B]banning Judaism from your country[/B].[/QUOTE] No, it's not. Let's say a country like France bans it, but Germany doesn't. What is stopping a devout jew living in France from just going to Germany to get the "procedure" done for their child? Stop blowing things out of proportion.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53134075]iIt's pretty important and banning it is the same as banning Judaism from your country.[/QUOTE] Wait until theyre an adult and can actually consent to snipping off a part of their body. If banning child mutilation is effectively the same as banning that religion then idk what to tell you bud

The passage doesn't even specify that it must be at birth, you can easily interpret [I]"that every male among you be circumcised"[/I] as every adult male must choose to be circumcised. A covenant you entered as a baby is about as legitimate as a contract you signed as a baby. [B]Correction:[/B] [QUOTE=sgman91;53134122]"9•God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10•This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11•And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12•And [B]every male among you who is eight days old[/B] shall be circumcised throughout your generations" (Genesis 17:9-12)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;53134087]Christianity moved Jesus' birthday. Judaism can postpone circumcision. Again, it reeks of insecurity and weakness if God wants to enter a 'covenant' with babies rather than adults who can reason.[/QUOTE] Honestly, this statement is so ignorant that it's hard to take you seriously. If you think a celebration of Jesus's birthday in Christianity (a totally extra-biblical traditional celebration) is in any way comparable to circumcision in Judaism (an absolutely core tenet of what it means to be a Jew, practiced consistently since the very beginning of Abrahamic religion), then you are talking to no one but your own bubble. You're welcome to condemn the practice, but at least recognize it's significance. You are essentially saying that Jews aren't allowed to fully express their Judaism in Iceland. You might be fine with that, but recognize it at least.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53134075]Circumcision is called Brit milah in Judaism, literally translating to "covenant of circumcision" It originated with God making a treaty with Avraham It's a clear-cut treaty, god will give the land of Canaan to Avraham's decendants and make them a great nation and in exchange, God will fulfill his end of the deal. It's pretty much the moment where God chooses the Jewish people as the chosen people and sets clear limits for them, it's practically the basis of Judaism to the point where the liberal Reform and Conservative movements do it and even secular Jews with no connection to Judaism do it. It's pretty important and banning it is the same as banning Judaism from your country.[/QUOTE] So is it impossible for someone to become a Jew? Cause far as I know, if the child wants to become Jewish later they totally can. They can't undo a circumcision though.

[QUOTE=sgman91;53134110]You're welcome to condemn the practice, but at least recognize it's significance. You are essentially saying that Jews aren't allowed to fully express their Judaism in Iceland. [B]You might be fine with that[/B], but recognize it at least.[/QUOTE] And you aren't? I mean I'm supportive of members of cannibal tribes not being allowed to fully express their culture too. Is that supposed to be a problem?

[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;53134107]The passage doesn't even specify that it must be at birth, you can easily interpret [I]"that every male among you be circumcised"[/I] as every adult male must choose to be circumcised. A covenant you entered as a baby is about as legitimate as a contract you signed as a baby.[/QUOTE] "9•God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10•This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11•And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12•And [B]every male among you who is eight days old[/B] shall be circumcised throughout your generations" (Genesis 17:9-12)

:snip:

correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it completely possible just to circumcise at a later date of one's own choosing? I know they're doing it in africa on grown men (thank you christian churches...)

[QUOTE=sgman91;53134110]You're welcome to condemn the practice, but at least recognize it's significance. You are essentially saying that Jews aren't allowed to be Jews in Iceland. You might be fine with that, but recognize it at least.[/QUOTE] Sure, that's fine, I didn't mean to equate their importance. Good thing circumcision isn't being banned in its entirety, and I'm only saying it needs to be postponed. A religion that requires forceful child abuse must be recognized as extremist, and it needs to adapt immediately. In this case, adapting is really easy for Judaism to do by just growing some balls and requiring that the person entering into the covenant be actually willing and understanding, rather than doing it quickly to infants so they can't object. [editline]15th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;53134122]"9•God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10•This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11•And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12•And [B]every male among you who is eight days old[/B] shall be circumcised throughout your generations" (Genesis 17:9-12)[/QUOTE] Ah, sorry, I missed that part. What a weak and insecure god. Judaism must change anyway, no body mods for babies. God might even learn to appreciate it more when people enter the covenant out of their own free will rather than being forced into it.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53134075]Circumcision is called Brit milah in Judaism, literally translating to "covenant of circumcision" It originated with God making a treaty with Avraham It's a clear-cut treaty, god will give the land of Canaan to Avraham's decendants and make them a great nation and in exchange, God will fulfill his end of the deal. It's pretty much the moment where God chooses the Jewish people as the chosen people and sets clear limits for them, it's practically the basis of Judaism to the point where the liberal Reform and Conservative movements do it and even secular Jews with no connection to Judaism do it. It's pretty important and banning it is the same as banning Judaism from your country.[/QUOTE] I hope you realize that by standing staunchly by Brit milah you also risk by extension being associated with the rest of Vayiqra, which abhors things like homosexual practices. Are you for or against capital punishment of gay people? Do banning attacks on gay people somehow set a precedent for judaism to be outright banned? Do you not understand why this ban is set in place? It's straight up mutilation. The child is not allowed to have any say in it, as it cannot consent at its age. And the health risks involved do not outweigh the benefits. When men of the wilderness joined with the jews on the exodus from Egypt, Joshua performed the rite of circumcision on them. Were they lesser jews because they were circumcised at an adult age? Religion in the modern world must adapt to be more flexible as the modern world sets a standard for morals. If you cannot accept it, then that's really on you.

[QUOTE=Cliff2;53134111]So is it impossible for someone to become a Jew? Cause far as I know, if the child wants to become Jewish later they totally can. They can't undo a circumcision though.[/QUOTE] In that case, they prick the prick with a needle and get a little blood as a symbolic thing.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53134147]In that case, they prick the prick with a needle and get a little blood as a symbolic thing.[/QUOTE] Let's just do this on adults then?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;53132862]a lot of the time, persecution of jews started with a simple banning of circumcision and kosher slaughter. thing is with circumcision is that it's literally the base of being a Jewish male, you cannot be a religious jewish male without it you really cant ban this practice without banning all jews from your country or somehow forcing Judaism to change its rules and that wont happen all these threads end up in a circlejerk about how circumcision is fucked up[/QUOTE] Sorry man, it's pretty simple. Don't cut an infants junk, they can decide all that later. I get you're defending jewish heritage, but jewish heritage relies on a form of child abuse. I'm circumcised, I like it, and it doesn't bother me, I had to get it done as a medical procedure when I was 8, but I don't think a kid should be forced to have it done. It's that simple. If that invalidates judaism, maybe judaism has some problems [editline]15th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;53134110]Honestly, this statement is so ignorant that it's hard to take you seriously. If you think a celebration of Jesus's birthday in Christianity (a totally extra-biblical traditional celebration) is in any way comparable to circumcision in Judaism (an absolutely core tenet of what it means to be a Jew, practiced consistently since the very beginning of Abrahamic religion), then you are talking to no one but your own bubble. You're welcome to condemn the practice, but at least recognize it's significance. You are essentially saying that Jews aren't allowed to fully express their Judaism in Iceland. You might be fine with that, but recognize it at least.[/QUOTE] recognized, acknowledged, and accepted. If a religion relied on cutting off the clitoris, would it still be okay to have that happen in Iceland, or in the US?

Make the uncircumcised dick the standard! I find it freaky that there are parts in the world where people are completely disgusted and thrown off with foreskin.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;53134168]If a religion relied on cutting off the clitoris, would it still be okay to have that happen in Iceland, or in the US?[/QUOTE] I'm not personally a fan of equating things that aren't equivalent.

[QUOTE=sgman91;53134188]I'm not personally a fan of equating things that aren't equivalent.[/QUOTE] Genital mutilation is genital mutilation. They're more equivalent than you want to admit, and the difference is that there isn't currently a mainstream religion promoting the use of one in the west