Mass Shooting in Las Vegas - 58 Dead at Least 515 Injured, Suspect Killed - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52737988][url]https://www.google.com/search?q=terrorism+definition&rlz=1C1OKWM_enUS764US764&oq=terrorism+defi&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l4.2205j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8[/url][/QUOTE] [url]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism[/url] [quote] Definition of terrorism :the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion[/quote]

[QUOTE=Bomimo;52738176]Are you absolutely fucking kidding me? Proper mental health care is "quite impossible"? Proper care of returning and retired veterans is "quite impossible"? Absolutely not! it can happen. but not as easily. Much like the rest of the industrialized world, they have access to mental health and therapy without stigma, they care for their veterans, they value fact-driven news, rather than screaming cults of personality driving emotions to a fever pitch. Asolutely fucking NOT "just as likely" and if you think so, you're part of the problem! And they put their faith in you voting for better treatment and care, better medication, better awareness. Looks like right now, you all misplaced that faith. But you can change that. Be better informed, vote with mind and heart. The mind for factually sound legislation, driven by reason and based on your hearts compassion for your neighbour. Stop being irresponsible and stop throwing your hands in the air when shit inevitably goes wrong! Stop being indirectly complicit in this bullshit by just standing by. Fuck gun-control debate. This is the real issue: Zero solidarity, no regard for the personal well-being of others, constant attack/deflect based political debate, Angry, loud news personalities and no regard for facts. These are not values. It's all bullshit driven by misplaced pride in the status quo.[/QUOTE] We don't know if he's a disturbed combat veteran or what. We know he served but I don't think anyone has his service record and nobody knows his current motives. I agree our health care system is garbage especially for veterans and especially in the mental well being department but keep in mind until we know more it's just as likely that his penchant for violence is why he enlisted in the first place. All Aman meant was that once someone's decided to illegally build an illegal machine gun and conduct a shooting with it, there's not a lot you can do other than hope you catch them before they pull the trigger. He didn't mean to indicate that you can't do anything about the broader violence issue or that it would've been impossible to prevent this guy from doing it before he made up his mind. When it comes to the gun control debate, pro-gun people push so hard for health care improvements that anti-gun people often accuse us of deflecting and being uncompromising. Everyone with a brain on the pro side (eg not cletus from alabama who thinks god personally gave him his right to own guns) wants to address the cause, not the symptoms. But it's a hard battle against people who are so blinded by "omg guns!!!" that any time you suggest treating a community's violence problem with outreach and a better overall approach to mental wellness (this goes far beyond better hospitals) they accuse you of soapboxing and deflecting.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52738133]It runs way, way deeper than just gun control. US gun culture fetishises gun ownership and borderline worships The Gun religiously. You can see this in how people defend the right to own guns. Without the freedom to own guns, you cannot truly secure yourself from the threat of the government turning authoritarian and oppressing the populace, nor can you ever really be safe from criminals in your own home or out on the streets. When it comes to issues such as rampant crime and gang violence, instead of pushing for constructive and sustainable solutions such as increased police presence to curb crime, and infrastructural improvements to lift the economy of an area and lower poverty, gun lobbyists insist that putting guns into the hands of even more people is the best solution. Never mind the fact that this is merely a stopgap measure that doesn't target the root causes.[/QUOTE] This and the weird obsession with killers and murderers that is so prevalent in western culture, it gives people this idea that killers aren't disturbed people but their own brand of monsters in human skin. It results in people being surprised when the quiet guy offs himself or takes someone with him. OMG HE WAS A PSYCHO ALL ALONG AND WE NEVER REALIZED yeah of course you didn't, he was probably never diagnosed, and all the dramatic changes that lead him to do what he did might have happened as currently as in the last month or two. He is a human being just like you, if you see something is wrong offer help. US culture is fascinating in this respect.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52738085]Thoughts and prayers with you in this trying time[/QUOTE] Seeing the post in retrospect I should probably have worded it differently. It was just weird since I have fond memories of the city..

[QUOTE=Bradyns;52738046]I've had a nap since just before this would have happened, and legit had to do a triple take of the headline, then google it.. I cannot believe those numbers. How?[/QUOTE] Someone fired an automatic rifle with huge magazines (or equivalent) from an elevated position into a nearby but fairly large and probably relatively dense concert crowd. As cynical as it sounds, I'm not surprised about the numbers. If anything, the number of people killed is low so far.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52738186]We don't know if he's a disturbed combat veteran or what. We know he served but I don't think anyone has his service record and nobody knows his current motives. I agree our health care system is garbage especially for veterans and especially in the mental well being department but keep in mind until we know more it's just as likely that his penchant for violence is why he enlisted in the first place.[/QUOTE] Yeah, we don't know and i was only bringing veterans into it because it was part of the conversation already. [QUOTE]All he meant was that once someone's decided to illegally build an illegal machine gun and conduct a shooting with it, there's not a lot you can do other than hope you catch them before they pull the trigger.[/QUOTE] I'd be willing to bet that proper health-care would have pushed this cours of action much further out into the distance for this guy. But we'll see. There's nothing on what the motive was yet. [QUOTE]When it comes to the gun control debate, pro-gun people push so hard for health care improvements that anti-gun people often accuse us of deflecting and being uncompromising. Everyone with a brain on the pro side (eg not cletus from alabama who thinks god personally gave him his right to own guns) wants to address the cause, not the symptoms. But it's a hard battle against people who are so blinded by "omg guns!!!" that any time you suggest treating a community's violence problem with outreach and a better overall approach to mental wellness (this goes far beyond better hospitals) they accuse you of soapboxing and deflecting.[/QUOTE] The left is going as crazy as we've all been thinking the extreme right has been for years. I hate how everything in America is devolving into rage, anger and violence. Yelling and screaming seems to be the only way to communicate anymore... Except everyone wants to dictate, rather than cooperate. Like. It's fine if that's what you guys wanna do with your country going forward. But it's spreading. Sweden is just a bridge away and they're going the same way with sexism against pre-school boys all the way to the elderly now. Quotas and anti-vaxxers... all that. We've never had this kind of "loud and dumb" debate culture in Scandinavia, but now it's here. The cancer has spread rapidly. This is what happens when you leave your common sense at the door and just "Listen and believe" It wasn't excusable when it was the bible, but somehow it's ok with this new Doctrine.

My parents tell me that they had actually planned on going to the festival before they accidentally fell asleep. Really shitty to think about.

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52738087]I'm going to have to admit ignorance on American gun laws here, but how exactly does someone even get a weapon like that? I'm guessing it was either stolen/black market?[/QUOTE] if I had to guess it was probably a project gunrunner weapon, ie bought from a cartel. the rate of fire closely matches that of an M249 or an M60, but don't take that as meaning that's what he used. it fires far too slow to be a modified civilian weapon (ie filed sear, usually causes the weapon to fire far faster than it was designed leading to constant jams and failure to fires) and far too reliably to be bump firing.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52738196]Someone fired an automatic rifle with huge magazines (or equivalent) from an elevated position into a nearby but fairly large and probably relatively dense concert crowd. As cynical as it sounds, I'm not surprised about the numbers. If anything, the number of people killed is low so far.[/QUOTE] This type of weapon was designed for this situation and was being used by someone evidently trained in its operation. The current count is on the low end for what a weapon like this is capable of, expect it to increase. This is not a sporting rifle being used out of its element or a civilianized assault rifle being toted around by some clueless kid. Belt guns are made for sustained fire at multiple targets from a vantage point. I am virtually as pro gun as pro gun gets but I am glad these things are not really widely available. I'm glad I can go out and shoot one in a controlled setting if I want to, but anyone who wants to make it possible for [I]anyone[/I] to get their hands on weapons like this is either terribly naive or terribly deranged.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52738213]I am virtually as pro gun as pro gun gets but I am glad these things are not really widely available. I'm glad I can go out and shoot one in a controlled setting if I want to, but anyone who wants to make it possible for [I]anyone[/I] to get their hands on weapons like this is either terribly naive or terribly deranged.[/QUOTE] I don't believe that to be the case. even before the hughes amendment, registered machine guns were the best behaved weapons in the country. anyone with $200 could get their hands on one and as far as I remember there was only one case of a legally owned machine gun being used in a crime up to that point, and in that particular case the type of weapon was irrelevant. there was a few cases of less than legal machine guns being used in crimes as well, but most of those were post prohibition mafia work that no amount of registration could have stopped

[QUOTE=butre;52738229]I don't believe that to be the case. even before the hughes amendment, registered machine guns were the best behaved weapons in the country. anyone with $200 could get their hands on one and as far as I remember there was only one case of a legally owned machine gun being used in a crime up to that point, and in that particular case the type of weapon was irrelevant.[/QUOTE] IIRC that specific case was a police detective anyway so he could've got the gun whether they were legal or not. But even during that time period they weren't really widely available and they were still tightly controlled (heavy background checks, waiting periods, etc). All I mean is if they were as easy to get as your common rifle I would expect them to appear with disproportionate regularity in attacks like this because shit like this is really what they're made for. People talk about AR-15s being made for killing or whatever and it's pretty much bunk but a gun like this is really in its element in this kind of situation. I'm glad they're regulated the way they are. I disagree with the Hughes Amendment (for those unaware, closed the registry for new machine guns, which limits the available pool to what was on the market in 1986) but other than that the machine gun controls are one thing I can understand from NFA, at least with MGs of this scale. I would still like to be able to finish my Sten and go rip up targets with it but a Sten doesn't compare to a weapon like the M60 in any sense.

[QUOTE=Yummy Pie;52738174]Jesus if you go on the Snapchat map feature and click on Las Vegas you can see just how crazy everything is up close.[/QUOTE] Oh Lord that's horrifying. You can see all the disbelief that people are having, and then you see all the snaps beforehand of life as normal.

[QUOTE=BackSapper;52738247]Oh Lord that's horrifying. You can see all the disbelief that people are having, and then you see all the snaps beforehand of life as normal.[/QUOTE] Modern era. A war on western soil would be [I]brutal[/I] media wise.

[QUOTE=Steel Geography;52738119]Hate to say it, but if the shooter was brown, everyone would 100% instantly call this terrorism and all the news comments would be complaining about "multiculturalism" just like the BS in the Marseille thread. RIP to all involved.[/QUOTE] Is it not terrorism by definition regardless? News at work is saying 400 injured ..

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52738237] "all I mean is if they were as easy to get as your common rifle I would expect them to appear with disproportionate regularity in attacks like this because shit like this is really what they're made for. People talk about AR-15s being made for killing or whatever and it's pretty much bunk but a gun like this is really in its element in this kind of situation. I'm glad they're regulated the way they are." [/QUOTE] It's unfortunate to see this amount of mostly uninformed and otherwise totally false speculation in this thread. You should stop commenting. You don't know what you are talking about.

[QUOTE=OvB;52738137]I can't imagine what the hospitals are like... Hundreds of people coming in at once...[/QUOTE] Code disaster is one of my biggest fears

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52738237]IIRC that specific case was a police detective anyway so he could've got the gun whether they were legal or not. But even during that time period they weren't really widely available and they were still tightly controlled (heavy background checks, waiting periods, etc). All I mean is if they were as easy to get as your common rifle I would expect them to appear with disproportionate regularity in attacks like this because shit like this is really what they're made for. People talk about AR-15s being made for killing or whatever and it's pretty much bunk but a gun like this is really in its element in this kind of situation. I'm glad they're regulated the way they are. I disagree with the Hughes Amendment (for those unaware, closed the registry for new machine guns, which limits the available pool to what was on the market in 1986) but other than that the machine gun controls are one thing I can understand from NFA, at least with MGs of this scale. I would still like to be able to finish my Sten and go rip up targets with it but a Sten doesn't compare to a weapon like the M60 in any sense.[/QUOTE] yeah if they were completely unregulated they'd be used more often in crime, but that's just because stuff like mac 10s are so cheap to make, and without regulation would thus be more cheap to buy than anything short of a derringer. on the bright side you can't really do much damage with the automatic weapons that would be cheap enough to be used for petty crime, as they all are jam-o-matics that fire so quick you wouldn't even be able to change targets before having to reload. something like an M249 would still be prohibitively expensive for anyone who wants to do this sort of thing.

i dont know but shooting into a crowd and injuring 400 while killing 50 or more sure sounds like terrorism to me

[QUOTE=Smoovedawg1;52738297]It's unfortunate to see this amount of mostly uninformed and otherwise totally false speculation in this thread. You should stop commenting. You don't know what you are talking about.[/QUOTE] Would you care to actually explain yourself since you seem to know everything? Considering you're talking to someone who owns a machine gun and shoots them on a fairly regular basis? Last week I ran a course with a full-auto MP5A2. Please tell me how I'm mostly uninformed on machine guns. I look forward to your elaboration. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Thread shitting - Don't use a thread where 50 people died to call people out for clarification. Report, ignore and move on" - icemaz))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Aman;52738142]And that's the point, if I don't give a shit about laws give me an AR platform and a couple of hours and it'll be full auto.[/QUOTE] Spoken like someone who is totally ignorant of what needs to be done.

[QUOTE=Wii60;52738307]i dont know but shooting into a crowd and injuring 400 while killing 50 or more sure sounds like terrorism to me[/QUOTE] Sounds like a mass shooting if there are no political ideals behind it

Worst shooting yet in the US. Maybe the silver lining here is that this will FINALLY prompt a real debate on gun/mental health issues. A REAL debate. Can't stress that enough. It feels surreal to have to make such a fuss but its like debates aren't even a real thing anymore in the US.

[QUOTE=CasualJoe;52738325]Sounds like a mass shooting if there are no political ideals behind it[/QUOTE] the only prerequisite is the intent of instilling fear, and by only a handful of definitions does it have a motive as a prerequisite. [editline]2nd October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;52738330]Worst shooting yet in the US. Maybe the silver lining here is that this will FINALLY prompt a real debate on gun/mental health issues. A REAL debate. Can't stress that enough. It feels surreal to have to make such a fuss but its like debates aren't even a real thing anymore in the US.[/QUOTE] as it currently stands the gun debate is irrelevant. as far as anyone can tell the gun used was already illegal.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52738311]Would you care to actually explain yourself since you seem to know everything? Considering you're talking to someone who owns a machine gun and shoots them on a fairly regular basis? Last week I ran a course with a full-auto MP5A2. Please tell me how I'm mostly uninformed on machine guns. I look forward to your elaboration.[/QUOTE] Congratulations you are a hobbyist. So am I. Now, I'm no expert on the subject but I'm not pretending to be, you are the one who is shitting up the thread with your uninformed opinions disguised as fact. Just because you drive down to the range and pop a few shots with a loaner MP5 does not make you an expert and with the way you write your shitty opinions you make it seem like you know what you are talking about. People who are not hobbyists like you and I will see your posts and think you know what you are talking about. Your posts are missing an asterisk and a "I am not an expert" note added. As for what is incorrect about your post, I could elaborate but I'd get banned for being offtopic, which you should have already. We get it, you build parts kits. You think that makes you an expert because you can weld and do "courses" with an MP5 and poke holes in paper. You are not special. You don't have any qualifications. Your posts are opinionated and shitty. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Offtopic/Flaming - Not the thread for this" - icemaz))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Smoovedawg1;52738345]Congratulations you are a hobbyist. So am I. Now, I'm no expert on the subject but I'm not pretending to be, you are the one who is shitting up the thread with your uninformed opinions disguised as fact. Just because you drive down to the range and pop a few shots with a loaner MP5 does not make you an expert and with the way you write your shitty opinions you make it seem like you know what you are talking about. People who are not hobbyists like you and I will see your posts and think you know what you are talking about. Your posts are missing an asterisk and a "I am not an expert" note added. As for what is incorrect about your post, I could elaborate but I'd get banned for being offtopic, which you should have already. We get it, you build parts kits. You think that makes you an expert because you can weld and do "courses" with an MP5 and poke holes in paper. You are not special. You don't have any qualifications. Your posts are opinionated and shitty.[/QUOTE] You still haven't explained how I'm wrong, but thanks for the rambling attack on my qualifications. I train police officers. What do you do?

[quote]Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Sheriff Joseph Lombardo told reporters Monday morning that authorities believe Paddock killed himself before police entered his room. Earlier, officials had said police fatally shot Paddock[/quote] [url]https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/las-vegas-police-investigating-shooting-mandalay-bay-n806461/[/url] Either way Paddock was the only person who knew why this had to happen. We might never get that closure. Fuck him doubly if he offed himself, he could have at least written a manifesto first. Hope the lady they are questioning has a little insight.

They just showed a photo of him on the news. He was very old. Very surprising.

[QUOTE=CasualJoe;52738325]Sounds like a mass shooting if there are no political ideals behind it[/QUOTE] This is the distinction, IMO at least. I don't give a shit what religion or color someone is; if they're using wanton violence and fear to propagate an ideology, that's terrorism. Those saying "you'd call it terrorism if they were brown" are doing a fair bit of generalizing themselves. [QUOTE=butre;52738338]the only prerequisite is the intent of instilling fear, and by only a handful of definitions does it have a motive as a prerequisite. [/QUOTE] dictionary definition: [QUOTE]the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;52738330]Worst shooting yet in the US. Maybe the silver lining here is that this will FINALLY prompt a real debate on gun/mental health issues. A REAL debate. Can't stress that enough. It feels surreal to have to make such a fuss but its like debates aren't even a real thing anymore in the US.[/QUOTE] Who needs debate when you can just point the finger at the democrats, the republicans or Trump for easy brownie points?

[QUOTE=shad0w440;52738356][url]https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/las-vegas-police-investigating-shooting-mandalay-bay-n806461/[/url] Either way Paddock was the only person who knew why this had to happen. We might never get that closure. Fuck him doubly if he offed himself, he could have at least written a manifesto first. Hope the lady they are questioning has a little insight.[/QUOTE] At the same time...perhaps him not writing a manifesto is for the best. Depending on his reasoning it could become a focal point for those with similar beliefs. And it would almost certainly receive non-stop news coverage, ensuring everyone knows about it and basically signal boosting his beliefs.