Shooter in Cleveland, OH streamed kill on Facebook -suspect is dead- - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=CaIIum;52116818]And that's a justifiable reason to go out and shoot innocent people?[/quote] No? I think you're missing the point

[QUOTE=CaIIum;52116818]And that's a justifiable reason to go out and shoot innocent people? You mention having empathy for people like this but imagine if this was a family member or a friend. There are a number of victims families, friends and more devastated because one man wasn't "born so resilient" and decided to go out and start shooting innocent people.[/QUOTE] I am not condoning the shooter's actions, but merely pointing out that when people get bitten enough, they will bite back. The mental healthcare system in America is a joke, as is the sad state of affairs where if somebody tries to seek help they get labeled loonies, freaks, crazies, and all those other nice epithets people like to call others suffering from a mental illness. My heart is as much with the victim(s) as it is with the perp. It's fucking unfortunate that somebody got shot because this man snapped and decided enough was enough. But pointing fingers and calling for executions is not the right way to go about things here at all. Not trying would be to just abandon the perp who already felt abandoned enough that he decided to shoot somebody.

[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;52116808]Well there's no accounting for that unless you try now don't you? Put yourself in the place of a man who said his life was so terrible he snapped after one more thing didn't go his way. Not everybody is born so resilient as to withstand all of the bullshit life throws at you, nor does everybody get out of the dark holes life often finds pleasure in putting them in. Then ask yourself: if you walked several miles in this man's shoes, would you be more resilient than he, or would your mind run out of staying power sooner? Have some empathy for poor bastards like this, christ.[/QUOTE] Have some empathy for the victims killed in cold blood. These murders are as pointless as murders get, no thought or remorse behind them. Yeah he might be going through some hard times and he snapped, [B]but who gives a fuck[/B]. The [I]split fucking second [/I] you harm someone else, let alone kill someone, you lose every drop of empathy I would have had. I hope that this man is removed from the earth soon.

[quote]but who gives a fuck[/quote] Everyone should.

[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;52116856]Have some empathy for the victims killed in cold blood. These murders are as pointless as murders get, no thought or remorse behind them. Yeah he might be going through some hard times and he snapped, [B]but who gives a fuck[/B]. The [I]split fucking second [/I] you harm someone else, let alone kill someone, you lose every drop of empathy I would have had. I hope that this man is removed from the earth soon.[/QUOTE] This toxic ideology is what spawns tragedies like this in the first place. When you demonise and dehumanise the perpetrators and label them psychos incapable of salvation, it further deepens the root cause of the problem. You're reinforcing the stigmatisation of mental health, and the idea that crazy people are born crazy and there's no helping them. That's exactly what pushes people like the shooter here over the edge in the first place.

[QUOTE=Cructo;52116894]"my life is shit so i will kill people randomly" good justification dude I feel empathy now[/QUOTE] You've clearly never experienced mental illness, nor had to deal with someone with mental illness before.

[QUOTE=Cructo;52116894]"my life is shit so i will kill people randomly" good justification dude I feel empathy now[/QUOTE] Have you experienced mental illness before? have you had to deal with people who were mentally ill before? Their minds don't work the same way sane peoples' minds do any more. Even if they know an action is wrong, some part of them believes that what they are doing is a rational reaction to their current situation no matter how terrible it might be.

if i was pushed to the point where i snapped and started killing people, i hope that i would be stopped as quickly as possible. at that point i think getting shot and killed would be merciful

we have experts here who have diagnosed mental illness because a guy streaming his cold bloodied murder on facebook told us he has. I wonder why people aren't feeling any empathy for someone demonstrating a complete and utter regard for life and empathy whilst streaming it!! [editline]17th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zonesylvania;52116916]Have you experienced mental illness before? have you had to deal with people who were mentally ill before? Their minds don't work the same way sane peoples' minds do any more. Even if they know an action is wrong, some part of them believes that what they are doing is a rational reaction to their current situation no matter how terrible it might be.[/QUOTE] you can have empathy with a murderer but not with someone who has repugnant thoughts towards a murderer?

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52116936]we have experts here who have diagnosed mental illness because a guy streaming his cold bloodied murder on facebook told us he has. I wonder why people aren't feeling any empathy for someone demonstrating a complete and utter regard for life and empathy whilst streaming it!! [editline]17th April 2017[/editline] you can have empathy with a murderer but not with someone who has repugnant thoughts towards a murderer?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;52116887]This toxic ideology is what spawns tragedies like this in the first place. When you demonise and dehumanise the perpetrators and label them psychos incapable of salvation, it further deepens the root cause of the problem. You're reinforcing the stigmatisation of mental health, and the idea that crazy people are born crazy and there's no helping them. That's exactly what pushes people like the shooter here over the edge in the first place.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;52116952][/QUOTE] but you can't empathise with someone who feels loathing for someone they've just seen killing an innocent man.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52116965]but you can't empathise with someone who feels loathing for someone they've just seen killing an innocent man.[/QUOTE] Feel loathing for it by all means, I can't stop you from feeling what you want to, but I have to point out that loathing and dehumanization does little but contribute to a problem that's already festered for too long.

I don't understand why we have to suddenly empathize with a murderer because he had problems. Do we empathize with gangbangers now? Do we empathize with John Wayne Gacy? Ted Bundy? [editline]17th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zonesylvania;52116808] -emotional ploy-[/QUOTE] I'd check into a fuckin' hospital and not pop a cap in an old man's face, actually. Empathy my ass [editline]17th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;52116905]You've clearly never experienced mental illness, nor had to deal with someone with mental illness before.[/QUOTE] Oh quit with this smarmy, attempt-at-a-zinger bullfuck. I have, with both, and I never got even the idea of taking a gun and shooting innocent people. Stop trying to absolve this man of his crimes. He has killed innocents and is prepared to kill more. Why do you have to stand up for this piece of shit.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52116992]I have, with both, and I never got even the idea of taking a gun and shooting innocent people. Stop trying to absolve this man of his crimes. He has killed innocents and is prepared to kill more. Why do you have to stand up for this piece of shit.[/QUOTE] So your anecdotal experiences are representative of mental illnesses as a whole?

[QUOTE=_Axel;52117041]So your anecdotal experiences are representative of mental illnesses as a whole?[/QUOTE] Where did I say that. Anywhere. At all. Where did I imply all mental illness is the same. How did you get this?

I'll refrain from being an 'armchair psychiatrist', but whenever I've spoken to criminologists they always say [I]"No criminal was born to become criminal"[/I], but fundamentally formed through environmental adaptation. Since there's a reason why individuals are more likely to commit crime in certain areas, conditions (economy & social services, family), culture, experiences (because experience > reaction > experience > so on...). The human mind adapts to its surrounding in order to survive, same reason poor people rob and get more children. It is completely possible to decrease crime rate since that's what science and history has taught us. You guys may focus on the current victims, while me myself would rather prioritize preventing a future victim as much as possible, with the 'simple' question: What triggered this individual to act in this way? If so, how can we prevent it in the future? I read studies from NTU and BRÅ about Swedish crimes about violence and murder, and from the last 16 years murder (in any form) has decreased by 41% in general (-10% gun related deaths [2011-2015]), and it keeps decreasing due to social development. We can't validate from our perspective if this perp is mentally unstable or not, but I'm pretty sure criminals has a motive and a goal of self-interest. Then we got those who just want to terrorize the world, which is sadistic and many other things, which are known to be connected to mental instability. We must also remind ourselves that we are still young in our knowledge of the brain and how it functions. I'd rather see this perp to be caught alive (if possible) to study as much as possible, which some cases give no results and some do. But since we live in an age of information, all information must be absorbed. >Not saying we should protect him or not, since I believe it's a strong grey area<

-merge

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52117048]Where did I say that. Anywhere. At all. Where did I imply all mental illness is the same. How did you get this?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Cructo;52116894]"my life is shit so i will kill people randomly" good justification dude I feel empathy now[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Headhumpy;52116905]You've clearly never experienced mental illness, nor had to deal with someone with mental illness before.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52116992]I have, with both, and I never got even the idea of taking a gun and shooting innocent people. Stop trying to absolve this man of his crimes. He has killed innocents and is prepared to kill more. Why do you have to stand up for this piece of shit.[/QUOTE] You're implying that your experiences with mental illness allow you to claim mental instability isn't an explanation of his behavior. Which only works if the kind of mental illness you experienced is similar to the one he has. Nobody's talking about justifying his murders either. People are just strawmanning those who try to read into things a little deeper than "he's a monster and should be executed".

[QUOTE=_Axel;52117087]People are just strawmanning those who try to read into things a little deeper than "he's a monster and should be executed".[/QUOTE] Ok. He's a mentally ill individual who has used this as a crutch to give himself an excuse to murder others and he has forfeited any respect from his fellow man. He should be apprehended, tried, and at the very least held in solitary for the rest of his days, far separated from anyone else that he could harm. He did not choose to go to hospitals as far as we know, he did not choose to seek help. He chose to kill, he chose to become a menace, and he should be punished for his choices. That deep enough?

[QUOTE=michaeldim;52116375]You're either for the death penalty or not. You don't get to make exceptions whenever you feel like it. Every thread about killers/rapists/etc has someone saying something along the lines of "I abhor the death penalty and I think it is barbaric. Buuuttt, this case made me extra-mad so flay the fucker." If you're against the death penalty but think that very severe cases should get it, then guess what? You are for the death penalty. I'm not saying that I think he should or should not be executed. I'm saying stop being hypocrites.[/QUOTE] I am for the death penalty though? Where did I say that I'm against in most cases?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52117094]Ok. He's a mentally ill individual who has used this as a crutch to give himself an excuse to murder others and he has forfeited any respect from his fellow man. He should be apprehended, tried, and at the very least held in solitary for the rest of his days, far separated from anyone else that he could harm. He did not choose to go to hospitals as far as we know, he did not choose to seek help. He chose to kill, he chose to become a menace, and he should be punished for his choices. That deep enough?[/QUOTE] Kansas is running out of hay with the size of the strawman you're building here.

[QUOTE=Headhumpy;52117108]Kansas is running out of hay with the size of the strawman you're building here.[/QUOTE] Do you have a response that isn't a zinger. And how is that a strawman? I was giving my side of how I view this individual.

No sympathy for the devil, sorry.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52117117]Do you have a response that isn't a zinger. And how is that a strawman? I was giving my side of how I view this individual.[/QUOTE] Sure. No one said he should be absolved of his crimes. No one said that his mental illness excused him. All we said was that it's important to have empathy for him and understand his situation and what lead him to carry out those actions in the first place so that we may prevent such incidents from happening in the future. He's still a criminal who should be tried and punished for his crimes, but he's also a human being with a set of experiences that shaped who he is. It's a strawman because you're setting up those arguing for empathy for the shooter as calling for his innocence and defending his crimes, when in fact no one has.

You can't just blame the mental health Care system here. Mental illness is entirely subjective, and if an individual doesn't look for help then all the care and the world can't help them. Same goes for when people snap, and most people who do think they don't need the help until it's too late. Considering his job he more than likely had plenty access to decent healthcare, so you can't just chalk it up to "the failed system". Sometimes the only thing to blame is the person at fault, and if folks would realize that we'd be bickering a lot less.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52117094]Ok. He's a mentally ill individual who has used this as a crutch to give himself an excuse to murder others and he has forfeited any respect from his fellow man. He should be apprehended, tried, and at the very least held in solitary for the rest of his days, far separated from anyone else that he could harm. He did not choose to go to hospitals as far as we know, he did not choose to seek help. He chose to kill, he chose to become a menace, and he should be punished for his choices. That deep enough?[/QUOTE] dumb enough, yeah I don't think anyone's lessening the crimes that were committed here, just the dehumanization is a reason why some people end up believing they aren't worthy of life because of their mental issues and it [I]is[/I] important to point that out when mental support in this country is still a bit of a mess. (it's beyond our healthcare, sometimes people don't even consider getting themselves help) You don't have to grow sympathy, but you do understand what you're saying makes no sense for someone who's having a psychotic episode? I can assure you that there isn't a thought process behind why someone is having a psychotic episode.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52117094]He's a mentally ill individual who has used this as a crutch to give himself an excuse to murder others and he has forfeited any respect from his fellow man. [...][/QUOTE] "Guilty before proven innocent" turns into "Stable before proven unstable". The police will take care of the arrest and the legal court process will determine if he's mentally unstable or not, not me or you or anyone else.

[quote]guys a scumbag and lost any right to proper help the moment he took a random innocent mans life for no reason other than something as stupid as "joy lane"[/quote] We [I]all[/I] deserve help. Some folks just don't think they're deserving of help or will get help -- and that tends to drive them towards extremes, like this explosion of uncontrolled violence. Fact is we just don't know enough about the situation here to pass these sorts of judgments. Yelling about how people don't deserve help does a lot of good in reinforcing in those people that they won't get help and that'll just result in further tragedy. Personally, I feel that even if he's a sociopath and is using a 'cry for help' to mask his crimes (maybe as a premeditated 'mental illness defense' for when he is inevitably sent to jail) -- that's just more good arguments for why he needs professional help.

I think the recent argument in this thread really showcases a lot of the stances on mental illnesses as a whole. Either believe and try to rehabilitate them, or just call them loonies and spare a bullet for their heads. Haven't seen an in-between yet. The stance on mental illness in America is a stigma within itself. Do you want to improve the mental healthcare system (this also benefits veterans) in the United States? Or do you want to continue with it as is and just execute/lock-up people when they start snapping? It's not even an argument about moral high-ground, it's more of a "Do you honestly think the mental healthcare system in the United States is an effective and efficient use of resources?" But sometimes people just have to realize, people just snap, and there's nothing you can do besides put them down, or lock them up from society for a long time.

[QUOTE=Kagu;52117238]I think the recent argument in this thread really showcases a lot of the stances on mental illnesses as a whole. Either believe and try to rehabilitate them, or just call them loonies and spare a bullet for their heads. Haven't seen an in-between yet. The stance on mental illness in America is a stigma within itself. Do you want to improve the mental healthcare system (this also benefits veterans) in the United States? Or do you want to continue with it as is and just execute/lock-up people when they start snapping? It's not even an argument about moral high-ground, it's more of a "Do you honestly think the mental healthcare system in the United States is an effective and efficient use of resources?"[/QUOTE] this implies all mental illness is the same