Shooter in Cleveland, OH streamed kill on Facebook -suspect is dead- - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Jarokwa;52117201]stop with this "he too is a victim" and "we must help him" bs, guys a scumbag and lost any right to proper help the moment he took a random innocent mans life for no reason other than something as stupid as "joy lane" stop being so naive, the sooner they shoot this guy the better.[/QUOTE] Very, very few people are undeserving of some attempt to help them. Do we know much about the dudes history? If before this incident he was a perfectly fine seeming individual, getting him help to overcome whatever the fuck caused this (if it is genuinely a mental health thing, which it seems to be) could cause him to come to terms with what he's done, feel remorse, etc. whilst at the same time allowing us to work out what the fuck happened so we can have better identifiers of similar behaviour in the future. Opting for "shoot first never ask questions" when it comes to outlier murderers like this is a severe waste of resources, and doesn't [I]do[/I] anything. As long as you have the option to arrest them without bloodshed, aim for that. Because the knowledge from an alive suspect could help us down the line. A dead suspect helps nobody. Murder is abhorrent, but as awful as it is, what's done is done. Killing them wont bring the victims back, trying to understand what happened and working out how we can resolve it however does do something. Preventative measures are pretty useful to aim for. And perhaps knowing what he was going through at the time could encourage others to seek help before they fucking murk some dudes.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;52117241]this implies all mental illness is the same[/QUOTE] Well yeah, but is the system funded/learned enough to be able to handle the myriad of mental illnesses? Relying on the goodwill of people to help solve one of society's biggest problems is naive and using bullets is just an easy way out (which is ironic, isn't it).

[QUOTE=Cructo;52116778]why waste resources on a psycho that's most likely never going to be reintegrated into society[/QUOTE] Oh wow, what a terrible post. You waste the resources on knowing more about why the psycho's a psycho, curbing a lot of the easy scapegoats people blame stuff on. After that, if he can't or isn't willing to try some way to become normal (big doubts, you'd always be wary around someone like this Steve guy), put him down or lock him up for the rest of his life, I don't care. As long as we actually learn more about mental problems.

[QUOTE=Jarokwa;52117201]stop with this "he too is a victim" and "we must help him" bs, guys a scumbag and lost any right to proper help the moment he took a random innocent mans life for no reason other than something as stupid as "joy lane" stop being so naive, the sooner they shoot this guy the better.[/QUOTE] I'd argue that he is a victim of the lack of mental health facilities, resources, and outreach. We may never know why he snapped and chose to mirder., but just because he didn't seek help doesn't mean he didn't want or need it.

How does that make it the mental healthcare facilities responsibility? They can't help you if they don't know you need help. I realize it's not the best care in the world but they aren't magic. [QUOTE=UncleJimmema;52117137]You can't just blame the mental health Care system here. Mental illness is entirely subjective, and if an individual doesn't look for help then all the care and the world can't help them. Same goes for when people snap, and most people who do think they don't need the help until it's too late. Considering his job he more than likely had plenty access to decent healthcare, so you can't just chalk it up to "the failed system". Sometimes the only thing to blame is the person at fault, and if folks would realize that we'd be bickering a lot less.[/QUOTE]

This is definitely an emotionally charged kind of topic because it involves primitive emotions that humans have had since before civilization. [URL="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/revenge-evolution/"]Revenge is a desire to get even, to deliver justice, to avenge the victims, to honor the dead, deter future behavior and to gain status.[/URL] Evolutionary it helped with survival via cooperation; when an animal like a chimpanzee helps another chimp to get even, the favor will most likely be repaid. It keeps tribal cohesion by avenging the survivors of the fallen who feel upset about the loss of someone close, displays a sense of power and righteousness can give the avenger greater status as a protector, it may possibly deter another person from harming the avenger or his tribe or even make the gains that the aggressor made from the victim worth less, etc. People's desire for revenge is higher when they or a loved one have been witnessed as being mistreated, so that those that see the abuse don't get the idea that they can mistreat or take advantage of you or a loved one. The important thing is that [i]revenge doesn't have to be effective to be satisfying.[/i] The fact is revenge causes more issues, causes a cycle of violence, a loss of profit, or at best does nothing; it makes the avenger feel good, though, which is the primary motivation. In fact, [URL="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-pleasure-of-revenge/"]revenge activates the pleasure center of the brain[/URL]. Getting revenge, even just thinking about revenge, is pleasurable. In a way its a form of sadism, pleasure from the misfortune of others. Most people oon't see justice as a form of sadism at a close glance but basically justice is pleasurable and revenge is getting justice by harming another, either by actual violence, making them "feel [the victim's] pain," or taking away their autonomy. When you look at the comments to murders like these, you get two different sides: those that want revenge, and those who avoid, forgive, or accept. Those that want revenge want to bury the aggressor in the ground, violently harm him, avenge the fallen, deter future behavior, and also to gain pleasure via proxy. Forgiveness is risky from an evolutionary standpoint. To forgive is to let a harmful act go "unpunished" in return for a greater relationship in the future. You risk that the person you forgive will harm you again. Pure forgiveness in a situation like this is obviously not rational, but there are degrees of forgiveness and similar methods. Accepting abuse is a tactic that injured spouses, bullied kids, or even mistreated coworkers will use; they accept the abuse because getting revenge would end the relationship and thus the avenger would lose out too. In a situation like this accepting the abuse would be to rehabilitate the aggressor, so that he may be a productive member of society. It is also a way to avoid the abuse - the abuse won't happen again if this man is put away and "rehabilitated". However, when the abuse is not directed towards you, it's far easier to forgive. [URL="http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/01/moral-outrage-is-self-serving"]It also can give pleasure in the sense of doing something "right," even if that "right" act is just signalling to others that you're morally upstanding.[/URL] --- [B]So, what does all of this have to do with this man who shot a stranger in cold blood and live broadcast it? [/B]Someone who was abused to the point of mental instability and decided to get revenge, albeit in an ineffective way. You can see this by how he mentions his ex, that it was because of her. The "pain" she "caused" him makes him exact revenge by proxy. She's the reason this random stranger died, not the shooter. She caused this. The shooter rationalizes that he is just the gun and she had already fired the trigger, and thus he disassociates from the crime. In a way its an extreme form of cutting, however instead of cutting oneself they are cutting someone else. The broadcasting is to publicize the harm to maximize the pain it will cause her. Everyone knows that "she did this." From a utilitarian point of view society would benefit most if this man was rehabilitated into a productive member of society. But humans are not utilitarian by nature. Revenge is primal, and satisfying. Forgiveness, when one has been wronged, is hard, painful, and risky. It's way easier to forgive if you or a loved one haven't been the victim. Overall it's easy to empathize with both sides of the debate, but the fact of the matter is that the crime has been committed and any further action will not undo that. The only thing rehabilitation would do would be to take the risk that you could make this broken man productive to society again at the expense of the feelings of the victim's family, and all execution would do would be to satisfy that primal feeling of revenge. The main concern should be preventing these actions from happening in the future by others, but that's not satisfying to do and requires much more thought.

Kind of irritates me seeing some people jump to execution and the 'death penalty' so easily. Type of shit I'd see from Facebook, but those those fuckers are hard to persuade. Look at it this way. You can't just feel like the death penalty should be for just one person because 'justice' or some shit. If you're for the death penalty, you're for it wholly. He'll either get arrested or shot and you don't decide if he'll get the death penalty based on your emotions. You are essentially asking someone to kill on your behalf because your mad, and if you think good will come from that, nice line of thought, for justice. But other than that, it doesn't bring the victim back. It doesn't heal someones wounds. All it is just legal murder. Nothing more nothing less.

Here's how I feel about rehabilitation vs the death penalty. I feel like the death penalty isn't helpful in the long run. If we keep killing criminals who do the most abhorrent crimes, we get the justice we want, but I feel like we're losing out on a possibility. If we try to rehabilitate them, we could turn a criminal into a functional member of society. Yes, there's a chance that they'll never be able to function normally. But in that case they stay in prison until their death, and so they still get punishment for what they did. And if we find success in rehabilitation, then we learn how to treat possible future cases and the chance for rehabilitation working goes up. It feels like killing these criminals is "easier" than trying to fix them, but I feel like in the long run it's much better to have the chance of a good person coming out of jail then just killing them before the possibility even comes up.

[QUOTE=Crooky14;52113781]What could bring a person to just snap and turn to this? It's horrifying[/QUOTE] based on what he said in his video I'm guessing it's a columbine type scenario, just with an older guy. persecution complex leading to angst in an already unstable person is never a good thing. that or he was completely nuts to begin with and recently thought to himself: "you know who got a TON of positive media coverage? [B][I]TED BUNDY[/I][/B]"

Any updates?

[QUOTE=Pepsi-cola;52118217]Any updates?[/QUOTE] Still manhunt on him, bounty raised to 100k

Isn't finding a way to take down serial killers and mass shooters nonlethally, and removing their chance of taking anyone else including their own lives a good way to deter people who "wants to go out with a bang"? Hear me out for a moment, if we take away the suicide by cop factor and add that sense of "there's a large chance of you having to take responsibility for your actions. " I'm not saying this would be perfect, or necessarily safe but isn't it something to consider?

[QUOTE=IAmAnooB;52118341]Isn't finding a way to take down serial killers and mass shooters nonlethally, and removing their chance of taking anyone else including their own lives a good way to deter people who "wants to go out with a bang"? Hear me out for a moment, if we take away the suicide by cop factor and add that sense of "there's a large chance of you having to take responsibility for your actions. " I'm not saying this would be perfect, or necessarily safe but isn't it something to consider?[/QUOTE] if he wanted suicide by cop he would have done it already instead of running

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;52117518]I'd argue that he is a victim of the lack of mental health facilities, resources, and outreach. We may never know why he snapped and chose to mirder., but just because he didn't seek help doesn't mean he didn't want or need it.[/QUOTE] At what point does someone become responsible for their own actions though? It's like any time someone does something bad we just conjure up the mental health boogeyman and leave it at that. Are the terrorists in the Middle East beheading people because they're evil pieces of shit, or because they all just so happen to be mentally ill? Is a petty criminal who steals shit from 7/11 a thief or someone suffering a minor mental illness or chemical imbalance?

[QUOTE=srobins;52118395]At what point does someone become responsible for their own actions though? It's like any time someone does something bad we just conjure up the mental health boogeyman and leave it at that. Are the terrorists in the Middle East beheading people because they're evil pieces of shit, or because they all just so happen to be mentally ill? Is a petty criminal who steals shit from 7/11 a thief or someone suffering a minor mental illness or chemical imbalance?[/QUOTE] Pretty sure that expecting middle eastern terrorists to take responsibility for their actions is racist somehow

[QUOTE=Jemmena;52118421]Pretty sure that expecting middle eastern terrorists to take responsibility for their actions is racist somehow[/QUOTE] What in the fuck does that mean?

Maybe if he actually tried to get treatment or help and was either rejected or didn't receive adequate treatment I'd feel the same way about blaming the mental healthcare system for this. Too bad they have nothing to do with this though. [editline]17th April 2017[/editline] It's like blaming an EMT for failing to arrive when nobody called them

[QUOTE=italics560;52118434]What in the fuck does that mean?[/QUOTE] Soft bigotry of low expectations

[QUOTE=Jemmena;52118458]Soft bigotry of low expectations[/QUOTE] while i agree with you can we not shoehorn the middle east into this thread? It has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52118449]Maybe if he actually tried to get treatment or help and was either rejected or didn't receive adequate treatment I'd feel the same way about blaming the mental healthcare system for this. Too bad they have nothing to do with this though. [editline]17th April 2017[/editline] It's like blaming an EMT for failing to arrive when nobody called them[/QUOTE] What if everyone you know constantly reaffirms the idea that calling an EMT is shameful and permanently marks you as an unstable person for the rest of your life?

[QUOTE=geel9;52118985]What if everyone you know constantly reaffirms the idea that calling an EMT is shameful and permanently marks you as an unstable person for the rest of your life?[/QUOTE] So is this what happened to him or? I get what you're trying to say but you have no idea if that's the case at all. [editline]18th April 2017[/editline] That's just what happens when you start getting into "buts" and "what ifs" If my grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52119045]So is this what happened to him or? I get what you're trying to say but you have no idea if that's the case at all. [editline]18th April 2017[/editline] That's just what happens when you start getting into "buts" and "what ifs" If my grandma had wheels she'd be a wagon[/QUOTE] I'm referring to the general stigmatization of mental illness in America, not something that specifically just happened to this guy. It's a pervasive mindset.

Nah, I understood your point..and you think that's why he never sought help and decided to shoot an old man in the face for everyone to see? Because he was afraid of being shamed for having a mental illness? Weird way of going about it. You can't blame mental healthcare for everything that happens.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52119062]And you think that's why he never sought help and decided to shoot an old man in the face for everyone to see? Because he was afraid of being shamed for having a mental illness? Weird way of going about it. You can't blame mental healthcare for everything that happens.[/QUOTE] I was responding to your comparison to EMTs. I found your analogy severely lacking. I responded to it.

Seems like a pretty reasonable comparison to me? Just because some people view people with mental health problems in a negative light doesn't make the statement any less true. You can't blame this on the people that can actually help if they have no way of knowing what/why/where the problem is, they aren't magic which was the original point. I mean, if you were blaming the people who treat people with mental illness poorly than yeah but it still wouldn't be the EMT's fault????????

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52119079]Seems like a pretty reasonable comparison to me? Just because some people view people with mental health problems in a negative light doesn't make the statement any less true. You can't blame this on the people that can actually help if they have no way of knowing what/why/where the problem is, they aren't magic which was the original point. I mean, if you were blaming the people who treat people with mental illness poorly than yeah but it still wouldn't be the EMT's fault????????[/QUOTE] I never said you should blame the EMT for not magically understanding where to go. I think your analogy was off because people are not conditioned to avoid calling EMTs lest they be socially stigmatized. I don't think most people here are blaming doctors for not providing the support he needs. Perhaps you're reading a bit into that. The fact is that people don't seek out mental health support when they really, really should. Perhaps if it were encouraged, and not stigmatized, this man may have done so.

[QUOTE=geel9;52119137]I never said you should blame the EMT for not magically understanding where to go.[/QUOTE] I never said you said this either lol what are you doing my original post was in response to this: [QUOTE=Tetsmega;52117518]I'd argue that he is a victim of the lack of mental health facilities, resources and outreach.[/QUOTE] Which reads to me like passing the blame from him to the healthcare facilities. All I'm trying to say is sometimes there really is no one else to blame. [editline]18th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Marbalo;52119139]Im quite amazed at the fact that this guy is still on the run. Usually when someone is stupid enough to use live social media to broadcast serious crime, and then go as far as [I]staying[/I] live after the fact while also freely giving out his cell number, it doesnt take very long for the perp to be caught. Usually its a matter of hours.[/QUOTE] I was thinking this too, I keep coming back to check the thread expecting him to be caught but there's nothing yet unfortunately :frown:

Are we saying this guy is mentally I'll because he told us he snapped? The way he was talking and acting came across to me as self pity and revenge. Driving around looking for a victim whilst talking cohesively and streaming just doesn't seem like the actions of someone suffering from a mental illness. But I am not qualified to make a proper judgement so at this point it is all just opinion.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52119502]Are we saying this guy is mentally I'll because he told us he snapped? The way he was talking and acting came across to me as self pity and revenge. Driving around looking for a victim whilst talking cohesively and streaming just doesn't seem like the actions of someone suffering from a mental illness. But I am not qualified to make a proper judgement so at this point it is all just opinion.[/QUOTE] Do you not know what "mentally ill" means? Mentally ill doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be a gibbering mess sitting in the corner of a room smearing shit on a wall.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;52119502]Are we saying this guy is mentally I'll because he told us he snapped? The way he was talking and acting came across to me as self pity and revenge. Driving around looking for a victim whilst talking cohesively and streaming just doesn't seem like the actions of someone suffering from a mental illness. But I am not qualified to make a proper judgement so at this point it is all just opinion.[/QUOTE] Not qualified either but just pointing out, most murders are people the killer knows personally, EX: Family member, or maybe bullies from their school, maybe someone they hate. Hell, it might even be someone they stalked, or don't know however hunt down and kill for sexual fantasies they have, but that's different for someone to just walk up to an old guy like this is a bit of wild card case from my understanding. Killers don't just do shit like this, they almost always at least have a motivation. Even people who publically mow down strangers in a public place have some motivation against the public. This dude just straight up did it because apparently he wanted someone to call him. of course almost every killer on the planet is unique in why they do it. I'd say he's pretty obviously mentally ill, despite how 'sane' he is. He doesn't even have a real motivation to kill the dude, he's just straight up a sociopath about it. Totally deadpan and relaxed. Killing that old dude is just a means to an end. [editline]18th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Anderan;52119512]Do you not know what "mentally ill" means? Mentally ill doesn't necessarily mean he's going to be a gibbering mess sitting in the corner of a room smearing shit on a wall.[/QUOTE] Anders Breivik is considered """"SANE"""" in some regard, and look at how he is. perfect example of someone who acts sane and yet totally lost it. for someone who isn't good with stuff like this like I am its very confusing and I can see why people don't get it. There are a lot of cases of mentally ill killers who basically do their own unique gibbering and smearing shit on the wall. It's pretty easy to see why the stereotype exists. Especially when people like the Columbine shooters and Charles Manson are like, the 'leader' of insane people.