Ex-Arizona cop acquitted in fatal shooting of sobbing, unarmed man at hotel - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52968178]Robots in authority positions are a bad idea as it removes accountability. Theres a good Ted Talk about why we shouldn't put robots and AIs in those sorts of positions.[/QUOTE] Implying anyone is being held accountable now?

Alright, ive had a few days to cool off, I still don't feel any better. Is there really nothing we can do? Can we take it to the supreme court?

Watched the video,guilty verdict or not that was a murder. [editline]11th December 2017[/editline] I am really confused about the whole simon says scenario in the hallway. contradictory command one after another they chose to have the ghu face them and and approach,all the traffic stops I have ever seen videos of they command the person to face away from them and walk backwards with their arms up?

[QUOTE=Sherow_Xx;52966395]So, here you're demonstrating that we can sit here, several people with video of the incident that we can re-watch as many times as necessary, and actually [I]debate what the commands meant[/I]. And yet you expect a drunk man, under duress, at gunpoint, to get it all right the first time. Yes, he got killed because he reached back, but he wouldn't have reached back if he had only gotten one, consistent command eg. put your hands behind your head and interlace your fingers. Notice how he was perfectly capable of following that instruction [I]until[/I] they told him to move his hands out in front of him. Then they ask him to pull himself up into a kneeling position, which he didn't, and I still don't, know what actually means, since they yell at him for not keeping his legs crossed - I don't know of any possible interpretation of 'kneeling position' where your legs are crossed. At this point he has no fucking clue what they want, and so he ostensibly puts his hands behind his back because that's his understanding of what the police wants you to do. And by the way, watch from 2:18 again, you'll see the woman also failing to interpret what is meant by 'kneeling position', and while she successfully interprets 'crawl towards me' as 'walk on your knees with your hands still in the air', she does it [I]without crossed legs[/I]. So, try and put yourself into the guy's perspective at that point; he has been told to look into the carpet, so he doesn't see anything, only hears the commands [I]"push yourself up into a kneeling position", "put your hands in the air", [/I]and[I] "now crawl towards me"[/I], and is then tasked with imagining how he's supposed to do this. I know your argument is that actual cause was him reaching his hand back, but I'm saying that [I]that[/I] was caused by the cop's insane commands - he literally just said [I]"your hands go back into the [?], your back, or [?], and we are going to shoot you - crawl towards me"[/I]. Yeah, he reached back, yeah it could look like he was reaching for a gun, yeah it should be obvious that he should prioritize keeping his hands out over probably pulling his pants up, [I]but it could not have happened if the cop hadn't made him remove his hands from behind his head[/I]. Due to the amount of stress he was under, we can't expect him to have behaved rationally, therefore him reaching back was not his fault.[/QUOTE] The question on my mind now is, who is really guilty in this scenario? The officer who hasn't said a single word, who apparently was also under a lot of stress, shooting the man after he grabbed for his pants because he feared that he might had a gun OR his superior who barked out these insanely stupid commands, putting a lot of stress on the suspects, maybe even his officers, disrespectfully treating and verbally threatening the main suspect to kill him on the spot and was effectively in charge of this whole disaster? Because in my opinion, the guy in charge should face charges for manslaughter.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;52969523]The question on my mind now is, who is really guilty in this scenario? The officer who hasn't said a single word, who apparently was also under a lot of stress, shooting the man after he grabbed for his pants because he feared that he might had a gun OR his superior who barked out these insanely stupid commands, putting a lot of stress on the suspects, maybe even his officers, disrespectfully treating and verbally threatening the main suspect to kill him on the spot and was effectively in charge of this whole disaster? Because in my opinion, the guy in charge should face charges for manslaughter.[/QUOTE] I still hold that there are two separate issues here: the badly handled situation that lead to a death and the shooting in reaction to him reaching towards his waste band. I would charge the person yelling the commands with some sort of manslaughter or low level homicide for causing a situation that led to unnecessary death, but I wouldn't charge the man who shot the gun.

The guy who actually pulled the trigger, as tragic as it is, didn't do anything wrong. You have a suspect who was reported waving around an assault rifle reaching for his pants; like I said before, hesitation in a situation like that can mean (and has meant) the difference between life and death. The real issue lies with fucking Serpico over there, making the poor fucker play a game of gunpoint Twister; that's NOT the way this shit is supposed to be done and it's 100% on him for escalating the situation to the point that the suspect even made that mistake to begin with. Situations like this are always kind of muddy. You get people saying "well why didn't they just shoot him in the leg", and then people rebuff that with "well they're not trained to shoot for the legs, they're trained to stop a threat, also there's a lot of vital arteries in your legs", and it just goes on and on, but this situation is pretty cut and dry; no, the dude shouldn't have been waving an airsoft rifle around like a drunken idiot. No, he shouldn't have reached for his pants. But up until that final fuckup of reaching for his pants, the only person not following procedure is the dude giving the orders.

I wonder how the person who called this in feels now, I know i'd feel horrible after seeing how it played out.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52969998][...] but I wouldn't charge the man who shot the gun.[/QUOTE] The problem is that he is now the scapegoat of this whole incident.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;52970366]The problem is that he is now the scapegoat of this whole incident.[/QUOTE] As far as I can tell, the trigger-puller was the one charged, and he was acquitted because his decision to fire was deemed justified. Everyone in this thread is screaming for blood because the events surrounding that decision to fire were unjustified, but that's not the officer's fault, that's the fault of his superior. That superior is the one who should face charges, but now the issue is so locked onto this particular court case that either nobody will face repercussions or it will be the guy who was goaded into killing an innocent man by his irrational and unprofessional superior.

I wonder what the figures are for people who die like this... apparently 'reaching for their guns'. You can't keep your guns as a society and expect not to be policed this way.

[QUOTE=angelangel;52971186]I wonder what the figures are for people who die like this... apparently 'reaching for their guns'. You can't keep your guns as a society and expect not to be policed this way.[/QUOTE] This transcends being on edge because the guy might be armed. This was inexcusably sadistic, the kind of thing you'd expect from the criminal with the gun rather than the cop. Part of being a cop in the first place is being trained and professional. The cop in question here certainly wasn't professional - and what if there [I]had[/I] been a gunman waiting in the room? If these cops had actually been up against people looking to kill them, they placed themselves in a [I]horrible[/I] spot to deal with that. Defending cops like this is what enables them in the first place. If they were treated as harshly as they deserve, I guarantee there would be far fewer incidents like this.

[QUOTE=angelangel;52971186] You can't keep your guns as a society and expect not to be policed this way.[/QUOTE] I don't agree. If it's pretty clear that I am not going to go and shoot someone, there is no reason to be treated this way by police officers - possession of firearms or not. Cops deal with concealed and open carrying individuals every day politely without incident. The officers in this situation reacted absurdly and were out of line.

[QUOTE=angelangel;52971186]I wonder what the figures are for people who die like this... apparently 'reaching for their guns'. You can't keep your guns as a society and expect not to be policed this way.[/QUOTE] How many people get shot reaching for guns that arent there? Not many. You're blatantly wrong.

[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;52971427]This transcends being on edge because the guy might be armed. This was inexcusably sadistic, the kind of thing you'd expect from the criminal with the gun rather than the cop. Part of being a cop in the first place is being trained and professional. The cop in question here certainly wasn't professional - and what if there [I]had[/I] been a gunman waiting in the room? If these cops had actually been up against people looking to kill them, they placed themselves in a [I]horrible[/I] spot to deal with that. Defending cops like this is what enables them in the first place. If they were treated as harshly as they deserve, I guarantee there would be far fewer incidents like this.[/QUOTE] I'm not defending the police, this was obviously a tragic incident that was compounded by many factors: the officer's shouting and aggressiveness that lead to poor communication, the fact that the subject may have been drunk, department SOP, officers' training (i.e., was there at least some discussion or planning? were the things discussed appropriate and correct?), etc. Incidents like these happen only because of the open access to guns in America. If you want it to stop then remove your guns... that was the point I was trying to make. Its a matter of American gun culture and not solely whether the police were 'bad' in this instance. [editline]13th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52971486]How many people get shot reaching for guns that arent there? Not many. You're blatantly wrong.[/QUOTE] Not many, but there have been a number of cases that have made it to the news. This video was a case of an officer responding to a minor traffic accident which ended up with someone getting shot. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr0NFyD0Nzw[/media]

[QUOTE=angelangel;52971624]I'm not defending the police, this was obviously a tragic incident that was compounded by many factors: the officer's shouting and aggressiveness that lead to poor communication, the fact that the subject may have been drunk, department SOP, officers' training (i.e., was there at least some discussion or planning? were the things discussed appropriate and correct?), etc. Incidents like these happen only because of the open access to guns in America. If you want it to stop then remove your guns... that was the point I was trying to make.[/QUOTE] Like with the issue of removing guns to curb crime, I'd much rather hit the source. In that case, it would be removing (or at least addressing) societal factors that cause violence in the first place. In [I]this[/I] case, I would much rather see police officers held accountable and to a higher standard. Irrespective of everything else, the police should be held to the highest standards. If you're going to enforce the law, you must be exemplary of it. Letting them get away with things like this undermines that.

[QUOTE=angelangel;52971624] Not many, but there have been a number of cases that have made it to the news. This video was a case of an officer responding to a minor traffic accident which ended up with someone getting shot. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr0NFyD0Nzw[/media][/QUOTE] Man, you mean to tell me that a police force of 1 million+, policing a population of 350 million +, makes a few mistakes a year? Thats actually a pretty good rate. The fact that these stories make the news still proves that these incidents are not the norm, and are very out of place overall. Saying we can "expect to be policed this way" is just supremely dumb.

[QUOTE=angelangel;52971624][media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr0NFyD0Nzw[/media][/QUOTE] Why the fuck would you even escalate to fucking drawing your weapon at a [B][I][U]FUCKING traffic accident[/U][/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Michael haxz;52971781]Why the fuck would you even escalate to fucking drawing your weapon at a [B][I][U]FUCKING traffic accident[/U][/I][/B][/QUOTE] Sovereign Citizens. [editline]12th December 2017[/editline] More specifically, i think they're trained to be to a degree wary during traffic stuff because of shit Sovereign Citizens have done in the past which can lead to stuff like this. I could be remembering it completely wrong though.

I remember this horrifying video, I forget whether I saw it in Driver's Ed or not, but it was dashcam footage of a state trooper doing a traffic stop, only when he got to the window the dude just shot him and sped off while the trooper bled out in the shoulder. It was fucking chilling. People are insane and cops need to be prepared for situations like that.

[QUOTE=Michael haxz;52971781]Why the fuck would you even escalate to fucking drawing your weapon at a [B][I][U]FUCKING traffic accident[/U][/I][/B][/QUOTE] Traffic stops are actually some of the most dangerous situations for police officers, because they are walking up to someone who has the jump on them and can just gun them down as they approach the window and drive off. There are some really fucked up people out there who just don't want to pay their 25th traffic ticket. ------- [QUOTE]Traffic Stops accounted for 26 (63 percent) of the 41 self-initiated cases that lead to line of dutyfatalities[/QUOTE] Sauce: [url]http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/officer-safety/Primary_Research_Final_11-0_updated_8_31_16.pdf[/url]

[QUOTE=Zombinie;52972193]Traffic stops are actually some of the most dangerous situations for police officers, because they are walking up to someone who has the jump on them and can just gun them down as they approach the window and drive off. There are some really fucked up people out there who just don't want to pay their 25th traffic ticket. ------- Sauce: [URL]http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/officer-safety/Primary_Research_Final_11-0_updated_8_31_16.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE] Yeah but this wasn't a traffic stop, this was the site of a vehicle accident. [QUOTE]Davidson got into a minor accident with a tractor trailer where Davidson swiped the back of the tractor trailer. The tractor trailer and Davidson pulled over on the side of the road to exchange information. Officer Hancock arrives on the scene and pulled up behind Davidson’s car and had his headlights and spotlight on the vehicle and exits his vehicle. One of Davidson’s attorney’s, Brian Mosholder said that his client was parked on a downslope, which made it difficult for him to get the door open.[/QUOTE] I don't know about you but I'd be caught off guard if a fucking cop started screaming "HANDS UP!" at me at the scene of a fender bender. There was literally no reason to escalate to fucking violence off the bat.

[video=youtube;eL9RB_jG6SY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL9RB_jG6SY[/video] Hopefully it will get more coverage and the sergeant will be brought up on charges.

[QUOTE=Michael haxz;52972269]Yeah but this wasn't a traffic stop, this was the site of a vehicle accident. I don't know about you but I'd be caught off guard if a fucking cop started screaming "HANDS UP!" at me at the scene of a fender bender. There was literally no reason to escalate to fucking violence off the bat.[/QUOTE] No, it was definitely a traffic stop.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52972708]No, it was definitely a traffic stop.[/QUOTE] None of this sovereign citizen stuff is still any sort of excuse for this shit. It's okay for a cop to be wary, but I don't count innocent people losing their lives over mistakes acceptable statistics. If you're going to say that the amount of times police officers kill innocents is so low it's a "pretty good rate" then I would say that the amount of times a cop will encounter a hostile sovereign citizen even lower. This is why other countries laugh at us and our "freedom." Our country should have extra education in driving ed just to know how to not get killed by police it's such a problem.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;52972736]None of this sovereign citizen stuff is still any sort of excuse for this shit. It's okay for a cop to be wary, but I don't count innocent people losing their lives over mistakes acceptable statistics. If you're going to say that the amount of times police officers kill innocents is so low it's a "pretty good rate" then I would say that the amount of times a cop will encounter a hostile sovereign citizen even lower. This is why other countries laugh at us and our "freedom." Our country should have extra education in driving ed just to know how to not get killed by police it's such a problem.[/QUOTE] But it's not "such a problem"? It's a highlighted issue because it rarely happens, thus it garners attention. It should never happen, you're right. But you can't expect perfection in such a huge number of people.

[QUOTE=Revenge282;52972742]But it's not "such a problem"? It's a highlighted issue because it rarely happens, thus it garners attention. It should never happen, you're right. But you can't expect perfection in such a huge number of people.[/QUOTE] I expect near perfection. Our police force kills and abuses innocent civilians often which is unacceptable. Obviously it's going to get reported on which makes the issue look more endemic, but it happens so often that it can't be ignored as special highlighting. I know that it's partly a byproduct of our second amendment (which I fully support), cops have to expect the worst at times, but incidents like these could be things that almost never happen if things were changed. Paying cops more and giving them great benefits would fix so many problems. Having higher pay and more benefits increases retention and provides more incentive to be an officer, leading to more officers. This means that the individual stress and obligations of officers are decreased, making their job easier. I think that every police officer should never have to be alone and should always have a partner for their safety. But to keep a higher standard, Police Academy should be much more rigorous and harsh on recruits to weed out shitweasels like the Drill Sergeant wannabe in the video along with other gung-ho fools. Body cams are worn by every officer and are unable to be turned off, and a third party auditing agency reviews cases of negligence or suspicious activity. Police need to be held more accountable for their actions. It's simply unacceptable the way many police forces seem to be ran like fraternities and they enjoy special privilege with local governments because upsetting your local PD is a dangerous thing to do when the country is short on police. Having more officers means that they aren't treated as nearly irreplaceable so they don't get off with light charges for what any other citizen would get murder for.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;52972770]I expect near perfection. Our police force kills and abuses innocent civilians often which is unacceptable. Obviously it's going to get reported on which makes the issue look more endemic, but it happens so often that it can't be ignored as special highlighting. I know that it's partly a byproduct of our second amendment (which I fully support), cops have to expect the worst at times, but incidents like these could be things that almost never happen if things were changed. Paying cops more and giving them great benefits would fix so many problems. Having higher pay and more benefits increases retention and provides more incentive to be an officer, leading to more officers. This means that the individual stress and obligations of officers are decreased, making their job easier. I think that every police officer should never have to be alone and should always have a partner for their safety. But to keep a higher standard, Police Academy should be much more rigorous and harsh on recruits to weed out shitweasels like the Drill Sergeant wannabe in the video along with other gung-ho fools. Body cams are worn by every officer and are unable to be turned off, and a third party auditing agency reviews cases of negligence or suspicious activity. Police need to be held more accountable for their actions. It's simply unacceptable the way many police forces seem to be ran like fraternities and they enjoy special privilege with local governments because upsetting your local PD is a dangerous thing to do when the country is short on police. Having more officers means that they aren't treated as nearly irreplaceable so they don't get off with light charges for what any other citizen would get murder for.[/QUOTE] Does anyone have statistics on, for example, how long German police training lasts, and what topics they train in (de-escalation being the main one I guess) VS American equivalents?

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;52972736] Our country should have extra education in driving ed[/QUOTE] This. I grew up with cops in the family, so I more or less know how to handle myself in a situation like a traffic stop. But I'm always so surprised to learn how few people knew about all the stuff that I grew up considering to be common sense (both hands on the wheel until they tell you to reach for your license/registration, refer to state troopers as "trooper" instead of "officer" or "sir", if a cop says "FREEZE", you fucking FREEZE and explain yourself later, etc.). I feel like one of the big reasons you get conflict between the cops and the public is because there's so little communication between both communities. The police assume "well yeah, no one would be stupid enough to quickly reach for their wallet" and the public assumes "well yeah, I'm just reaching for my wallet, how skittish would you have to be to assume I'm going for a weapon"; I'm generalizing here, but it's obvious through recent events that these kinds of assumptions need to be ironed out.

[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;52972736]None of this sovereign citizen stuff is still any sort of excuse for this shit. It's okay for a cop to be wary, but I don't count innocent people losing their lives over mistakes acceptable statistics. If you're going to say that the amount of times police officers kill innocents is so low it's a "pretty good rate" then I would say that the amount of times a cop will encounter a hostile sovereign citizen even lower. This is why other countries laugh at us and our "freedom." Our country should have extra education in driving ed just to know how to not get killed by police it's such a problem.[/QUOTE] 1 innocent killed a year is 1 to many. But again, 1 million cops killing 2 or 3 people mistakenly a year when theyre policing 350+ million is a really fucking good rate. There is literally no way to completely eliminate this in our nation. [editline]13th December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;52972770]I expect near perfection. Our police force kills and abuses innocent civilians often which is unacceptable. Obviously it's going to get reported on which makes the issue look more endemic, but it happens so often that it can't be ignored as special highlighting. I know that it's partly a byproduct of our second amendment (which I fully support), cops have to expect the worst at times, but incidents like these could be things that almost never happen if things were changed. [/QUOTE] It already is near perfection.

[QUOTE=Cyke Lon bee;52973084]1 innocent killed a year is 1 to many. But again, 1 million cops killing 2 or 3 people mistakenly a year when theyre policing 350+ million is a really fucking good rate. There is literally no way to completely eliminate this in our nation. [editline]13th December 2017[/editline] It already is near perfection.[/QUOTE] I'm very, very pro cop, but it sure as shit is not anywhere near perfection in America.