[QUOTE=snookypookums;52280756]I'm Indian...I don't [I]hate[/I] you, per se, but I am judging you for your choice so hard right now. [URL="http://roadsandkingdoms.com/2014/who-owns-chicken-tikka-masala/"]You should know that it's likely to be an invention by a Glaswegian.[/URL]
Everyone knows Chicken Kadai is the superior Indian chicken dish.
If you're going to eat Indian food, do it right, dammit.[/QUOTE]
Well that explains why Tikka is by far the most boring curry flavour then.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]Then what exactly is? [/QUOTE]
Well doing it with permission.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]And why exactly is this bad? No one owns how to make tortillas.[/QUOTE]
Well if we go with the intellectual property laws we have today, people can own ideas and non-material things. Now I dunno if they had some super secret recipe or technique, or if it was just generic tortillas. This matters of course, but there's no details to say whether this is the case. If it indeed is the case then it's just kind of like stealing a recipe from some company. If it indeed was something unique that belonged to them, not copying it is not right, unless it's with permission.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]Then you have a lot to learn about cultures and cultural exchange. "Cultural Appropriation" is a neutral anthropological term that describes cultural exchange. It's not good, it's not bad. Cultures take and give, willingly or unwillingly simply because they are extremely flexible and elastic. There are countless examples in history that show this in action - from various pottery types, to art styles, languages, clothing, any cultural material - including food. Nothing about cultural exchange says it has to be willingly or wittingly.[/QUOTE]
I was under the assumption that the word cultural appropriation carried a negative connotation. It seems from looking it up that it's not always the case, although sometimes people say cultural appropriation, but really mean cultural misappropriation. I looked up examples of misappropriation, but didn't find anything worthwhile, so maybe my take on the issue is not so much cultural misappropriation, but more about intellectual property.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]Nothing in the article even hints that they went to Mexico to steal that poor tortilla recipe from the poor hardworking Mexican people. So nice try.[/QUOTE]
Nice try? Feels like I'm being berated for thinking that this was the case. As I read the article this was the impression I got.
[QUOTE]“They wouldn’t tell us too much about technique, but we were peeking into windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look.”[/QUOTE]
This part also gave me the impression that this was the case.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]It's literally in the OP actually[/QUOTE]
This doesn't say they don't want them to partake in culture, but just that they don't want them to "erase" and "exploit" it. Now granted this could be argued by someone(idiotic enough) that participating in a foreign culture is erasing and exploiting it, but I honestly don't get the impression from the article that this is the case at all. After all they mention themselves:
[QUOTE]Now don’t get me wrong: cultural customs are meant to be shared.[/QUOTE]
So I still don't see it being argued that merely sharing cultures is wrong.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]Refer to what I said above about Cultural Exchange. Also known as "Cultural Borrowing" or "Cultural Diffusion". Cultural Diffusion, as it was defined to me, is the act of one Culture borrowing something from another. And borrowing was defined as one culture adopting something from another - again, the willingness of one culture vs another does not come into play.[/QUOTE]
I think this is arguing similarly to above. That intellectual property is owned by some and taking it without permission, especially to profit from is seen as morally wrong. I guess it also makes a difference as to whether it's a widely know recipe or a thing that is literally bread but just flat, but getting the impression that it's a specific recipe or several specific ones that they did not want to share, it seems akin to a violation of intellectual property to me.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]It pretty much is. Every one of these stories I see a misguided attempt to protect minority groups, even though it doesn't really protect them at all, and also stifles a natural process for cultures. In an effort to "protect" cultures, all they're doing is stifling cultural changes and shifts.[/QUOTE]
I think it's just a want to want to avoid exploiting cultures and disrespect them. Granted in some cases it's way overblown, probably in this one too. Although even if it didn't cause harm, if they did do something akin to stealing a recipe(Guess that's also another point of discussion), then that's at the least disrespectful.
[QUOTE=bdd458;52281108]Why exactly would they need to donate to a charity for making fucking burritos? Actually, I'm seeing this sentiment pop up more and more recently. "Oh X went against Y belief, they better donate to charity to make up for it and atone for their sins". It's like a modern day indulgences program.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying they necessarily have to, but just arguing that from the perspective of the people protesting, it would at least make sense. Whether anything wrong has been done here is up for discussion.
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]Well doing it with permission.[/quote]
"Hi im white can i make tortillas thanks" and more specifically for this situation "hi im white can i knead dough to make tortillas like you thanks"
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]Well if we go with the intellectual property laws we have today, people can own ideas and non-material things. Now I dunno if they had some super secret recipe or technique, or if it was just generic tortillas. This matters of course, but there's no details to say whether this is the case. If it indeed is the case then it's just kind of like stealing a recipe from some company. If it indeed was something unique that belonged to them, not copying it is not right, unless it's with permission.[/quote]
since all they did was try random recipies until they got something that tasted like it i really doubt its some super big secret dude.
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]I was under the assumption that the word cultural appropriation carried a negative connotation. It seems from looking it up that it's not always the case, although sometimes people say cultural appropriation, but really mean cultural misappropriation. I looked up examples of misappropriation, but didn't find anything worthwhile, so maybe my take on the issue is not so much cultural misappropriation, but more about intellectual property.[/quote]
That's because some well meaning people saw it in their anthropology classes at school and misapplied it, and a lot of people think the misapplication is what it actually means.
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]
Nice try? Feels like I'm being berated for thinking that this was the case. As I read the article this was the impression I got.
This part also gave me the impression that this was the case.[/quote]
You missed the part where that's referring to them watching how they kneaded the dough, much like pizza dough. And how easy that it was made to be seen. Also note that the Portland women are not fluent Spanish speakers, which only would have created a language barrier that I would definitely say impeded a lot of discussion.
[quote] “I picked the brains of every tortilla lady there in the [I]worst broken Spanish ever[/I], and they showed me a little of what they did,” Connelly told the Wilamette Week. “They told us the basic ingredients, and we saw them moving and stretching the dough similar to how pizza makers do before rolling it out with rolling pins.
“They wouldn’t tell us too much about technique, but we were peeking into windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated by how easy they made it look.”[/quote]
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]This doesn't say they don't want them to partake in culture, but just that they don't want them to "erase" and "exploit" it. Now granted this could be argued by someone(idiotic enough) that participating in a foreign culture is erasing and exploiting it, but I honestly don't get the impression from the article that this is the case at all. After all they mention themselves:
So I still don't see it being argued that merely sharing cultures is wrong.[/quote]
The place shut down because idiots said stuff like
[quote]These appropriating businesses are erasing and exploiting their already marginalized identities for the purpose of profit and praise[/quote]
So no, people are arguing that participating in a culture outside your own (if you're white) is exploiting it.
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]I think this is arguing similarly to above. That intellectual property is owned by some and taking it without permission, especially to profit from is seen as morally wrong. I guess it also makes a difference as to whether it's a widely know recipe or a thing that is literally bread but just flat, but getting the impression that it's a specific recipe or several specific ones that they did not want to share, it seems akin to a violation of intellectual property to me.[/quote]
They imitated a recipe for tortillas they noted from a specific part of Mexico (Puerto Neuvo, in Baja California. Few hours south of Tijuana, which is right on the border) , and then threw a bunch of Californian burrito ingredients into it. In addition, it is a widely known recipe for the region considering that [quote]I picked the brains of every tortilla lady there[/quote]
It's a regional way of making Tortillas. Sort of like how here in New England our Hot-Dog buns are "top-loading" while in much of the rest of the country "Side-Loading" buns are popular. Or the difference between Rhode Island and Massachusetts Clam Chowder.
[QUOTE=Tinter;52281936]I think it's just a want to want to avoid exploiting cultures and disrespect them. Granted in some cases it's way overblown, probably in this one too. Although even if it didn't cause harm, if they did do something akin to stealing a recipe(Guess that's also another point of discussion), then that's at the least disrespectful.[/quote]
There's zero disrespect in imitating a recipe you see somewhere else.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52280672]What the fuck is it about Portland that seems to turn its inhabitants into such rampant dickholes?[/QUOTE]
Insulation.
I have never really understood the cultural-appropriation thing really, I never understand why someone would think it is racist to dress up as a Native American for Halloween or something, if that were the case is it cultural appropriation to wear polo shirts if you are not white?
I just don't understand it I guess.
[QUOTE=Cinnamonbun;52282755]I have never really understood the cultural-appropriation thing really, I never understand why someone would think it is racist to dress up as a Native American for Halloween or something, if that were the case is it cultural appropriation to wear polo shirts if you are not white?
I just don't understand it I guess.[/QUOTE]
I think it's a matter of being respectful of other cultures that's sometimes taken to extremes. I think that dressing up as a Native American for Halloween is insensitive considering their history of persecution, genocide, and the cultural implications that their dress holds. Something like white people eating and making tacos isn't something that I'd consider disrespectful or insensitive at all.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52282834]I think it's a matter of being respectful of other cultures that's sometimes taken to extremes. I think that dressing up as a Native American for Halloween is insensitive considering their history of persecution, genocide, and the cultural implications that their dress holds. Something like white people eating and making tacos isn't something that I'd consider disrespectful or insensitive at all.[/QUOTE]
The whole idea of arbitrary groups being selected by white liberals that you aren't allowed to satirize seems off to me. You want to dress as an Irishman? Go ahead. A German? Sure. A Jew? No problem. A puritan? More power to ya. A native American? By God! Of course not. That's offensive!
It reminds me of the whole hubbub around the Redskins team name. It was a big deal until that poll came out that showed like 90% of actual native Americans didn't care.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52280672]What the fuck is it about Portland that seems to turn its inhabitants into such rampant dickholes?[/QUOTE]
What exactly is this based on? The two news stories currently on SH at the moment?
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52282834]I think it's a matter of being respectful of other cultures that's sometimes taken to extremes. I think that dressing up as a Native American for Halloween is insensitive considering their history of persecution, genocide, and the cultural implications that their dress holds. Something like white people eating and making tacos isn't something that I'd consider disrespectful or insensitive at all.[/QUOTE]
The head dress with feathers was explained to me by a native American. He said it the equivalent of a person dressing up in military uniform with highly prestigious awards but never served. Stolen honor.
So yeah......
[QUOTE=Guriosity;52283238]The head dress with feathers was explained to me by a native American. He said it the equivalent of a person dressing up in military uniform with highly prestigious awards but never served. Stolen honor.
So yeah......[/QUOTE]
Well with stolen honor you are impersonating for the glory, but when a pasty dude puts on the feathers, you know they are dressing up for fun, they aren't claiming to have served in native american warfare
[QUOTE=Zombinie;52283245]Well with stolen honor you are impersonating for the glory, but when a pasty dude puts on the feathers, you know they are dressing up for fun, they aren't claiming to have served in native american warfare[/QUOTE]
I'm saying the costume had very specific context to his culture and outsiders dressing up in it is offensive. So alright, I won't do it.
Food. Food however is a free for all. I can't think of any reason not to copy a style. Most folks on my travels I meet are very pleased if you like their cuisine and even happier if you take steps to learn how to cook it.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;52283236]What exactly is this based on? The two news stories currently on SH at the moment?[/QUOTE]
I'm kinda curious on this too. I was never aware Portlanders were so reviled but in both the threads in SH I've seen people generalizing us as all being shit for whatever reason.
It's not too say I don't understand the concept of cultural appropriation, but in this instance I ask "why does this matter?". If the ultimate goal is full globalisation, ie everyone mingled with everyone, why are people trying so hard to maintain pure cultural identity? There's nothing wrong for being proud of ones heritage, but why struggle so hard to prevent others from experiencing it and doing it themselves?
I ask this as a white American, and that's my problem. What is my cultural heritage? It sure as shit ain't German, as my great grandfather wanted his children to be "American" and as such didn't teach them German among other things. It isn't swedish, as whatever family traditions came from there died as soon as they crossed the pond and had a baby(save the love for pickled fish, which I think is hereditary). It's not English or Scott either, the families mostly died in the early teens before the kids are up. So what is my heritage, what is my cultural identity? I grew up with bratwurst and tacos, pastys and perogies. I had American flags and fried walleye with loads of Guinness and Budweiser. I come from a place that is mixed and full of culture, the culture of those who brought it to this country over the decades and centuries.
Yet somehow my"culture" is labeled "white", and I now apparently I can't start a business making tamales or fried rice because that's not from my culture.
My cultures American for Christ sake, it's the world's melting pot containing every culture and creed imaginable.
I'm not going to try to relate to where my family, my "culture", came from because quite frankly I don't know a damn thing about being a Swede, German, English, or Scott. I know America, and people should be embracing each other's culture rather than drawing lines in the sand.
[quote] I can't start a business making tamales or fried rice because that's not from my culture. [/quote]
Except you can, and the difference here is these ladies shut done voluntarily, which was stupid.
The one and only time this was tried here, the people doing the attempting ivory horsemanship labeling were laughed the fuck off of instagram by customers and proprietors, and the mix race owned Thai restaurant under "scrutiny" has had increased sales.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52283125]The whole idea of arbitrary groups being selected by white liberals that you aren't allowed to satirize seems off to me. You want to dress as an Irishman? Go ahead. A German? Sure. A Jew? No problem. A puritan? More power to ya. A native American? By God! Of course not. That's offensive!
It reminds me of the whole hubbub around the Redskins team name. It was a big deal until that poll came out that showed like 90% of actual native Americans didn't care.[/QUOTE]
I feel like you're sort of generalizing here. I definitely wouldn't be ok with an offensive halloween costume of a Jewish person.
In the end I think it comes down to historical context and the specifics of representation, which usually require a close analysis on a case-by-case basis. Admittedly, I am a bit hypocritical in that I don't see much of an issue with things like frivolous German or Irish representations, so I suppose it's more of a cultural thing. It's not as visible of an issue because we're farther removed from the persecution of European immigrants like the Irish and find them more deeply embedded within the fold of American culture. And, if I'm honest, another reason is because they're more traditionally white, and thus aren't as often considered as an outgroup. It's definitely a more nuanced and intriguing issue than we give it credit for.
[editline]28th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Guriosity;52283238]The head dress with feathers was explained to me by a native American. He said it the equivalent of a person dressing up in military uniform with highly prestigious awards but never served. Stolen honor.
So yeah......[/QUOTE]
That's what I meant by the cultural implications of their dress. That's one of the many reasons why dressing up as a stereotype of a Native American is so disrespectful.
[editline]28th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zombinie;52283245]Well with stolen honor you are impersonating for the glory, but when a pasty dude puts on the feathers, you know they are dressing up for fun, they aren't claiming to have served in native american warfare[/QUOTE]
I think it's more than that. It's not just that you're claiming their honor, you're also completely disrespecting the hardships that men and women in Uniform go through. It's marginalizing the sacrifices that they make in the line of duty. In that regard, appropriating the headdress is no different.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52283484]I feel like you're sort of generalizing here. I definitely wouldn't be ok with an offensive halloween costume of a Jewish person.
In the end I think it comes down to historical context and the specifics of representation, which usually require a close analysis on a case-by-case basis. Admittedly, I am a bit hypocritical in that I don't see much of an issue with things like frivolous German or Irish representations, so I suppose it's more of a cultural thing. It's not as visible of an issue because we're farther removed from the persecution of European immigrants like the Irish and find them more deeply embedded within the fold of American culture. And, if I'm honest, another reason is because they're more traditionally white, and thus aren't as often considered as an outgroup. It's definitely a more nuanced and intriguing issue than we give it credit for.[/QUOTE]
It seems to be based on how much it offends the liberal in question as opposed to some factual basis.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52283561]It seems to be based on how much it offends the liberal in question as opposed to some factual basis.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, stereotypes of African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, etc. are usually seen as more offensive and taboo throughout our culture regardless of political orientation. There's definitely a cultural aspect to our perception.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52283592]I disagree, stereotypes of African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, etc. are usually seen as more offensive and taboo throughout our culture regardless of political orientation. There's definitely a cultural aspect to our perception.[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by "throughout our culture?" There are tons of people who, for example, don't mind a silly sombrero and a Mexican accent as a stereotypical satire, including a whole lot of latino people.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52283484]I definitely wouldn't be ok with an offensive halloween costume of a Jewish person. [/QUOTE]
A bit daft to find any Halloween costume offensive isn't it? A holiday for dressing up silly or spooky?
When will these morons learn that when culture doesn't appropriate you get Bosnian genocides and nationalist uprisings
[QUOTE=sgman91;52283598]What do you mean by "throughout our culture?" There are tons of people who, for example, don't mind a silly sombrero and a Mexican accent as a stereotypical satire, including a whole lot of latino people.[/QUOTE]
Just in general based on subjective observations. I live in Texas, so it's not like I live in a place any more liberal than average.
[editline]28th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;52283953]A bit daft to find any Halloween costume offensive isn't it? A holiday for dressing up silly or spooky?[/QUOTE]
I think the idea is that people don't appreciate their culture, often very sensitive and important aspects of them, being degraded into "silly" costumes.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52283561]It seems to be based on how much it offends the liberal in question as opposed to some factual basis.[/QUOTE]
I mean of course not, it's just about respect. It's like how you wouldn't make fun of someone who had just died in front of their family. Not in severity of course, but there's nothing objective to base it upon.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52284013]
I think the idea is that people don't appreciate their culture, often very sensitive and important aspects of them, being degraded into "silly" costumes.[/QUOTE]
Uhh those important aspects of the culture still exist. A costume for a single day of giving and taking candy isn't going to undermine a whole culture's outfit and degrade it into a costume.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52276185]I love how the so called progressives have become the biggest proponents of segregation.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word 'progressive'. These idiots are not progressives.
Yeah, they are.
The term is not some blanket bullshit nom de jesus.
There are idiot progressives, there are irrational progressives, there are [i]many[/i] racist progressives.
The word does not mean 'only smart and successful and good and kind' and never did.
Just like any other political construct, there is as much inherent bullshit as there is 'intended benefit'.
[QUOTE=27X;52285018]Yeah, they are.
The term is not some blanket bullshit nom de jesus.
There are idiot progressives, there are irrational progressives, there are [i]many[/i] racist progressives.
The word does not mean 'only smart and successful and good and kind' and never did.
Just like any other political construct, there is as much inherent bullshit as there is 'intended benefit'.[/QUOTE]
What the hell are you on about?
'Progressive', by its very definition, means to be against discriminatory divisions that cause needless barriers and conflict in society. Anyone on the left who is engaging in such behaviour is therefore not progressive by any definition of the word. They're bigots, just towards whatever the majority happens to be. One cannot be regressive left and at the same time be progressive. Any literate six-year-old, or any English dictionary could tell you that.
To be progressive is to be in favour of social reform that eliminates harmful barriers between social classes. This 'cultural appropriation' bullshit is exactly the opposite.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;52283484]I feel like you're sort of generalizing here. I definitely wouldn't be ok with an offensive halloween costume of a Jewish person.
In the end I think it comes down to historical context and the specifics of representation, which usually require a close analysis on a case-by-case basis. Admittedly, I am a bit hypocritical in that I don't see much of an issue with things like frivolous German or Irish representations, so I suppose it's more of a cultural thing. It's not as visible of an issue because we're farther removed from the persecution of European immigrants like the Irish and find them more deeply embedded within the fold of American culture. And, if I'm honest, another reason is because they're more traditionally white, and thus aren't as often considered as an outgroup. It's definitely a more nuanced and intriguing issue than we give it credit for.
[editline]28th May 2017[/editline]
That's what I meant by the cultural implications of their dress. That's one of the many reasons why dressing up as a stereotype of a Native American is so disrespectful.
[editline]28th May 2017[/editline]
I think it's more than that. It's not just that you're claiming their honor, you're also completely disrespecting the hardships that men and women in Uniform go through. It's marginalizing the sacrifices that they make in the line of duty. In that regard, appropriating the headdress is no different.[/QUOTE]
Food is one of the few things I see as free for all in the cultural appropriation department. There is no reason I can't think of which can cause harm. I am against it in other areas of life but for different reasons. Philosophical Concepts from another culture should be translated for accuracy. Many people use the idea karma inaccuratly and its turned into another word for sin. Two vastly different ideas. What there to learn if you borrow and butcher things as another expression of your cultural lens?
[QUOTE=archangel125;52285032]What the hell are you on about?
'Progressive', by its very definition, means to be against discriminatory divisions that cause needless barriers and conflict in society. Anyone on the left who is engaging in such behaviour is therefore not progressive by any definition of the word. They're bigots, just towards whatever the majority happens to be. One cannot be regressive left and at the same time be progressive. Any literate six-year-old, or any English dictionary could tell you that.
To be progressive is to be in favour of social reform that eliminates harmful barriers between social classes. This 'cultural appropriation' bullshit is exactly the opposite.[/QUOTE]
Progressivism is not solely rooted in social issues, though. While I agree that these people aren't very progressive, being a progressive is about much more than just removing discrimination.
[QUOTE=geel9;52285067]Progressivism is not solely rooted in social issues, though. While I agree that these people aren't very progressive, being a progressive is about much more than just removing discrimination.[/QUOTE]
I'm starting to believe social justice was pushed as a way to distract folks from actual income inequality. It seems get poor white folks fight against poor black folk, which prevents them gang in up on rich white folk who owns both political parties. It needs to stop.
[QUOTE=geel9;52285067]Progressivism is not solely rooted in social issues, though. While I agree that these people aren't very progressive, being a progressive is about much more than just removing discrimination.[/QUOTE]
Is progressivism not about moving towards egalitarianism both socially and economically? The two aren't mutually exclusive issues, and each is often pretty tightly tied in to the other.
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