[QUOTE=srobins;52725296]I like how Russian posters (and even some non-Russian posters) keep peddling this "haha, Ukraine just wants to blame mean ol' Russian for everything! :rolleyes:", somehow forgetting that Russia [I]illegally invaded and annexed part of Ukraine[/I] and has been occupying it for three fucking years. The Ukrainians are well within their rights to be suspicious of Russia, especially when munitions dumps that have been sitting undisturbed for decades suddenly start exploding right when Russia sets its eyes on Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
Because we know what a clusterfuck current Ukraine is? And you can't blame corrupt government with clowns in Rada on Russia.
It's just all of this happened before - 90's Russia happened almost by the same scenario. Except Yeltzin was too busy drinking instead of asking for more money from US to battle those evil chechens. And Poroshenko for some reason never asked for soldiers or peacekeepers in these 3 years. He just asked for money and weapons, to defend themselves. And for some reason forgot to install a war time protocol, which he should've done in the first place after invasion.
I mean, it's fucked that Russia supplied weapons to Donbass, to further Putin's own agenda. But on the other hands, Odessa wanted independence too. And all they got was a huge fire in government buildings (which was blamed on the Odessa administration first, then the investigation into it was halted, when it was proven not to be the case), some pro-government alt-right thugs and a previous Georgia president as a governor (he already was fired and then illegaly entered Ukraine back, but that's another story).
So, please, don't pretend it's evil Russki versus poor helpless Ukraine. Both sides are fucked beyond any imaginable thought.
[QUOTE=DoktorAkcel;52725401]don't pretend it's evil Russki versus poor helpless Ukraine. Both sides are fucked beyond any imaginable thought.[/QUOTE]
And there is the obligatory Russian lecturing everyone else how "fucked" Ukraine is and trying to equalize the blame for this conflict and also unsurprisingly,
you lie in the process by claiming that "Odessa wanted independence" but the reality is that a pro-Russian group which does not represent the whole of Odessa AT ALL wanted independence.
Why do you think they clashed with the EuroMaidan activists?
I blame Russia
Russians will say anything to make Ukraine look like the bad guy.
They wouldn't be saying this shit if the roles were reversed.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;52725746]And there is the obligatory Russian lecturing everyone else how "fucked" Ukraine is and trying to equalize the blame for this conflict and also unsurprisingly,
you lie in the process by claiming that "Odessa wanted independence" but the reality is that a pro-Russian group which does not represent the whole of Odessa AT ALL wanted independence.
Why do you think they clashed with the EuroMaidan activists?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, mate, I know there is only one user whose russia hateboner is stronger than yours, but let me ask - why you claim a proper Odessa government an "pro-Russian group which does not represent the whole of Odessa AT ALL".
Odessa was against Maidan from the beginning, and all they got for their troubles - paid Timoshenko thugs and Right Sector. And if they don't represent Odessa, why burn and kill them? And why investigation is still going, with few key figures (some of them were participating in killings) suddenly had a suicide in a back of the head?
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;52725813]Russians will say anything to make Ukraine look like the bad guy.
They wouldn't be saying this shit if the roles were reversed.[/QUOTE]
I know plenty of Russians who are sympathetic to Ukraine, but it seems like those who aren't have no qualms outright lying, and knowing they're lying, to try and sway uninformed people against Ukraine. It's ridiculous. Ukraine is not some perfect angel of a country but her people want and deserve better than this.
[QUOTE=DoktorAkcel;52726077]Yeah, mate, I know there is only one user whose russia hateboner is stronger than yours, but let me ask - why you claim a proper Odessa government an "pro-Russian group which does not represent the whole of Odessa AT ALL".
Odessa was against Maidan from the beginning, and all they got for their troubles - paid Timoshenko thugs and Right Sector. And if they don't represent Odessa, why burn and kill them? And why investigation is still going, with few key figures (some of them were participating in killings) suddenly had a suicide in a back of the head?[/QUOTE]
Let's look at what happend
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes[/url]
[quote]
After the ousting of president Viktor Yanukovych by Euromaidan protesters in late February, heightened tensions between Euromaidan and anti-Maidan protesters began in Odessa Oblast. Police reported that 5,000 participated in a pro-Russian demonstration in the city of Odessa on 1 March. Rolling demonstrations continued, and on 3 March 2014, 200–500 demonstrators with Russian flags attempted to seize the Odessa RSA building.They demanded that a referendum on the establishment of an "Odessa Autonomous Republic" be held.
[b]Meanwhile several competing pro-Ukrainian demonstrations were also held in the city. On 30 March an 10,000–15,000 people strong pro-Ukrainian protest was held in Odessa.[/b][/quote]
You asked "Why burn and kill them" I think it's a good idea to look at how the situation escalated to the point of so many lossed lives:
[quote][b]Escalation into clashes[/b]
External video Odessa, the shooter at the Deribasivska Street video from YouTube
This rally was later attacked by a pro-Russian mob of 300 from the group Odesskaya Druzhina armed with bats and firearms at Hretska Street. Both sides fought running battles against each other, exchanging stones and petrol bombs, and built barricades throughout the city during the afternoon. According to OHCHR both sides had various kinds of helmets, masks, shields, axes and wooden or metal sticks, and firearms.
According to an OmTV there were mostly air pistols and the first actual firearms used was brought by an Antimaidan activist Vitaly Budko ("Botsman") who opened fire from an AK-47 rifle using 5.45 bullets. Witnesses pointed out that he was shooting from behind the police line, effectively being covered by the law enforcement operatives. The first victim was Igor Ivanov, who died from a 5.45 bullet. Some shots were fired from the roof top of the Afina shopping centre to shoot down at the crowds.Budko later left the scene in ambulance together with police commander Dmitry Fuchedzhy. Afterwards the pro-Russian "Antimaidan" activists claimed that Budko was using blank rounds or, in another version, an airsoft replica of AK-47. However, analysis of videos by the "2 May Group" has proven that Budko was indeed using a real AK-47 with live rounds.[/quote]
It should be apparent that the pro-Russian side provoked the pro-Ukrainian crowd and this led to even deadlier clashes and the trade unions house fire.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;52726604]
It should be apparent that the pro-Russian side provoked the pro-Ukrainian crowd and this led to even deadlier clashes and the trade unions house fire.[/QUOTE]
It should be apparent that citing some "OmTV", which is literally just a propaganda youtube channel and a vkontakte blog filled with anti-russian stuff(had to google it since i hadn't even heard about them before your post) is sure a sign of what sources you use to shape your opinion.
Anyway, it's not like I'm trying to call you out on your "filthy western propaganda" or anything, so, please, don't waste your time responding. If there's one thing I've learned about the whole Ukraine mess, it's that no official coverage of those events is trustworthy. Russian media is full of lies, and so are their western and ukranian counterparts. It's apparent there's an information war going on, with dozens of uncomfortable facts ignored by both sides, so I see no point in arguing about events both you and I have very, very vague and one-sided idea about.
Ok but in the western counterparts there aren't over twenty journalists who also happen to be investing some shit being killed or otherwise disapear
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