Germany Labels Twitch a "Radio service", Streamers need a broadcast license - Sensationalist Headlines

This was actually something I was thinking of, though more in the terms of podcasts than streaming. Unlike radio, posting stuff online has no regulations to follow like TV or radio does. For example, there aren't any penalties for saying a bad word on stream. There's no regulating entity, so it's just another thing that puts the internet ahead of old media.

[QUOTE=GordonZombie;52088576]Doubt this is something which could be easily enforced and even so, who'd be willing to sentence someone over some harmless streaming?[/QUOTE] They'd do it, believe me. It may be totally stupid, but as long as it's the law and legal you probably wouldn't get out of the fine here once there's any official proceeding.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52087705]You have to admit you're being a bit of a pot calling a kettle black right[/QUOTE] Breezeep does not represent his government as German FP'ers do not represent their government either.

[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;52088078]For radio stations it makes sense, there's a limited number of frequencies you can broadcast on, you don't want people stealing a spot from someone else, they help regulate that. However, [B]for television (now anyway, it used to have limited channels)[/B] and the internet it's just a way to get money without doing any actual work.[/QUOTE] I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure television still has limited channels. The only difference now is that we use digital video which is compressed and multiplexed to allow multiple channels to use the same signal. Hence why you tend to have broadcasters using this method to have multiple services broadcasting at once.

Ah yes, german bureaucratic men in suits, the best sub-species of humanity

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52087705]You have to admit you're being a bit of a pot calling a kettle black right[/QUOTE] Is the kettle not black, though?

[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;52089870]I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure television still has limited channels. The only difference now is that we use digital video which is compressed and multiplexed to allow multiple channels to use the same signal. Hence why you tend to have broadcasters using this method to have multiple services broadcasting at once.[/QUOTE] It's limited but it's limited to the thousands instead of the small amount we used to have. You're not going to notice that limitation.

[QUOTE=geel9;52090578]Is the kettle not black, though?[/QUOTE] We're basically having this conversation in a chimney

With all of the stupid laws that Germany passes, I think it's time the internet collectively bans German IPs from their websites in protest.

[QUOTE=Mitsuma;52086564]Actually you only need a license over 500 viewers. Not that its less stupid but yea. Also I can't remember but I think I read somewhere that this might also only apply to people who actually stream on a schedule and like on multiple days per week. Otherwise it does not really count like a show. Added to that your content must also be have like a team etc. private individuals might also not count as such. It is not the first time this actually happened, bigger ones like RocketbeansTV or even Angela Merkel had that problem. Knowing how future orientated and up-to-date our law makers are this can only end well. /s[/QUOTE] Actually the law means 500 [B]potential[/B] viewers. Which means this concerns anyone streaming. Who even came up with exactly 500? And why should internet streaming be regulated? How is this even remotely similar to TV or radio? Shit like this is making me consider leaving this country. They take away all this money by taxes, "voluntary" contributions for state supported media that put you in jail if you don't pay, undervalueing the Euro and negative interest rates so you have to pay money to let your money stay in the bank, plans to get rid of cash so they have an even easier time taking control of your money, plans of confiscation of your own property in case there are not enough places to live... I can't take this bullshit anymore. This country doesn't deserve me paying ~70% of my income while the money doesn't go into infrastructure, education or public health. Switzerland sounds good. And the border is just 1 hour away.

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52092214]Actually the law means 500 [B]potential[/B] viewers. Which means this concerns anyone streaming. Who even came up with exactly 500? And why should internet streaming be regulated? How is this even remotely similar to TV or radio? Shit like this is making me consider leaving this country. They take away all this money by taxes, "voluntary" contributions for state supported media that put you in jail if you don't pay, undervalueing the Euro and negative interest rates so you have to pay money to let your money stay in the bank, plans to get rid of cash so they have an even easier time taking control of your money, plans of confiscation of your own property in case there are not enough places to live... I can't take this bullshit anymore. This country doesn't deserve me paying ~70% of my income while the money doesn't go into infrastructure, education or public health. Switzerland sounds good. And the border is just 1 hour away.[/QUOTE] Holy shit Germany is taxing you at 70% effective rate?

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52092214]Actually the law means 500 [B]potential[/B] viewers. Which means this concerns anyone streaming. Who even came up with exactly 500? And why should internet streaming be regulated? How is this even remotely similar to TV or radio? Shit like this is making me consider leaving this country. They take away all this money by taxes, "voluntary" contributions for state supported media that put you in jail if you don't pay, undervalueing the Euro and negative interest rates so you have to pay money to let your money stay in the bank, plans to get rid of cash so they have an even easier time taking control of your money, plans of confiscation of your own property in case there are not enough places to live... I can't take this bullshit anymore. This country doesn't deserve me paying ~70% of my income while the money doesn't go into infrastructure, education or public health. Switzerland sounds good. And the border is just 1 hour away.[/QUOTE] 500 is probably an accommodation for amateur radio

[QUOTE=geel9;52092347]Holy shit Germany is taxing you at 70% effective rate?[/QUOTE] yeah what the fuck I've heard some countries like Denmark and the like go as high as ~60%, but more than that is just excessive

[QUOTE=Psychokitten;52092551]yeah what the fuck I've heard some countries like Denmark and the like go as high as ~60%, but more than that is just excessive[/QUOTE] The highest marginal income tax rate in germany is 45%. (38% for the US) Marginal also isn't the effective tax rate.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52087705]You have to admit you're being a bit of a pot calling a kettle black right[/QUOTE] Yeah man. All US citizens are directly involved with every single thing the government does what even the fuck

[QUOTE=J!NX;52092634]Yeah man. All US citizens are directly involved with every single thing the government does what even the fuck[/QUOTE] Is it really that hard to look past my shitty wording and see what the point of my post was

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52092640]Is it really that hard to look past my shitty wording and see what the point of my post was[/QUOTE] so what was your point?

[QUOTE=J!NX;52092647]so what was your point?[/QUOTE] That it's not really particular of the German government to grossly fuck up regarding technology, and that we have a penchant for it as well. See: Our semi-yearly panics about a bill threatening to "destroy the internet" (sopa, pipa, our surveillance (whoops that got through !), TPP, etc.) the brilliant people appointed to the FCC just now planning to throw out net neutrality and the dangers to encryption.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52092661]That it's not really particular of the German government to grossly fuck up regarding technology, and that we have a penchant for it as well. See: Our semi-yearly panics about a bill threatening to "destroy the internet" (sopa, pipa, our surveillance (whoops that got through !), TPP, etc.) the brilliant people appointed to the FCC just now planning to throw out net neutrality and the dangers to encryption.[/QUOTE] You can critic one fuck up and also critic a bigger fuck up. One does not invalidate the other. The US may be the worst first world country internet wise ATM but others doing harm is still harmful. If you just said that Germany doesn't fuck up as much as others then you'd at least have had a point. [QUOTE=Sims_doc;52087057]Wonder how long till other countries follow suite?[/QUOTE] The absolute last thing the internet needs is outdated law, I doubt it'd catch on THAT much.

[QUOTE=J!NX;52092678]You can critic one fuck up and also critic a bigger fuck up. One does not invalidate the other. The US may be the worst first world country internet wise ATM but others doing harm is still harmful. If you just said that Germany doesn't fuck up as much as others then you'd at least have had a point.[/QUOTE] It was just a response to his exasperation of how horrible the german government is lol the point was "easy there. we've got a lot of this shit too." And in this case they actually handled it well since they followed the law, and said that they want to change it.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52087661]It's just a way to collect money. Think of it like a tax.[/QUOTE] I think it's a little worse than that. I was listening to Kraut and Tea and he mentioned that the german goverment is currently suing a major german youtuber basically on the grounds that he's broadcasting without a license. And to get a liscence you have to abide by broadcasting standards, which include restrictions on content. Swearing, eternally undefined hate speech, holocaust denial all that lot. I don't think this is just a money grab, because that's maybe in the tens of thousands of people at most. This is an unacceptable intrusion by the government, intentionally or not, in controlling what people say and the platforms that they could say it on. This isn't a case of "doh hoh those wacky germans are up to some shenannigins", this is some seriously dangerous shit.

[QUOTE=space1;52091672]With all of the stupid laws that Germany passes, I think it's time the internet collectively bans German IPs from their websites in protest.[/QUOTE] they'd have to turn their guns on the freeworld of freedomland since we're proposing some pretty retarded draconian rules to "fix" government overreach like net neutrality and not siphoning your customers data, while also promising to enact rules to make the internet less secure, less flexible, and more government controlled

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52092949]I think it's a little worse than that. I was listening to Kraut and Tea and he mentioned that the german goverment is currently suing a major german youtuber basically on the grounds that he's broadcasting without a license. And to get a liscence you have to abide by broadcasting standards, which include restrictions on content. [B]Swearing, eternally undefined hate speech, holocaust denial all that lot.[/B] I don't think this is just a money grab, because that's maybe in the tens of thousands of people at most. This is an unacceptable intrusion by the government, intentionally or not, in controlling what people say and the platforms that they could say it on. This isn't a case of "doh hoh those wacky germans are up to some shenannigins", this is some seriously dangerous shit.[/QUOTE] Oh, please. Holocaust denial and hate speech are illegal in general here. And swearing is also allowed unlike in the US we don't bleep them out. I mean for fuck's sake, you can say fuck and shit on TV in Germany.

[QUOTE=space1;52091672]With all of the stupid laws that Germany passes, I think it's time the internet collectively bans German IPs from their websites in protest.[/QUOTE] It's just a really old law that was created before the internet was even in sight (with good reasons as already explained in the thread) and thus has some general wording that could also be applied to the internet now There have been and there still are a lot of cases like this which get fixed most of time when ridiculous stuff like this that makes no sense pops up, it's just the democratic system keeping up with technology - although very slowly At least we finally fixed our laws regarding public wifi (hopefully) now at our third attempt

[QUOTE=geel9;52092347]Holy shit Germany is taxing you at 70% effective rate?[/QUOTE] You got income tax rate, high value added tax on everything, "tax" (they don't call it like that but it is) for state "sponsored" tv channels and radio, tax on the car you own, there is taxes on everything. [editline]12th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=uber.;52093493]Oh, please. Holocaust denial and hate speech are illegal in general here. And swearing is also allowed unlike in the US we don't bleep them out. I mean for fuck's sake, you can say fuck and shit on TV in Germany.[/QUOTE] Tell me, what is hate speech? And who defines what is and what is not hate speech?

[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52093936]Tell me, what is hate speech? And who defines what is and what is not hate speech?[/QUOTE] It's easily defined in the StGB, [URL="http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1241"]Section 130[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/IiVc0"].[/URL] The law is fairly narrow and doesn't stop you from broadcasting your opinions (unless you want to arbitrarily discriminate people based on the mentioned categories, but even then it seems like it wouldn't apply in all possible cases). That's the English version, but you can of course look it up in German too. I have to link this about every one or two months because someone has misconceptions about it, but this is the first time someone from here is ignorant of its contents (assuming that's wasn't a rhetoric question). As for [I]who[/I] defines it: I suppose the answer is 'we, the people', through the democratic process. The law in question isn't part of the immutable (mostly basic human rights) clauses in our constitution after all, and not EU law to my knowledge, so you're free to change it if you get enough support here in Germany. I really don't see that happening though. There are of course some other laws regarding individual defamation, but those are pretty much the same as elsewhere. (You aren't allowed to maliciously lie about anyone, unless you're fine with paying fairly large penalties and damages.) [editline]12th April 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;52093936]You got income tax rate, high value added tax on everything, "tax" (they don't call it like that but it is) for state "sponsored" tv channels and radio, tax on the car you own, there is taxes on everything.[/QUOTE] This is an interesting issue. To reiterate the problem, someone has to pay for the (associated) services to be provided. The question then is of course who should pay for them. Regarding the broadcast reception 'tax', I agree with you it's badly implemented. (It's a flat fee per household for any amount of receivers including internet devices, just for context.) I think the service being provided (broadly available impartial news and mostly pretty high-quality educational and entertainment programmes) are necessary though, or at least easily worth what they cost to operate. Personally I'd prefer if it was translated into an increase in income tax or at least otherwise largely income-dependent. If I'm not mistaken, the car tax is pretty strongly dependent on what kind of car you drive though (in terms of power and fuel inefficiency). I think that's more fair than putting this into the general tax, and appropriate since vehicle use does cause a lot of direct and indirect costs. An alternative would be to increase fuel taxation, but that then wouldn't appropriately represent e.g. electric cars which still cause roads to degrade.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52094322]It's easily defined in the StGB, [URL="http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1241"]Section 130[/URL][URL="https://archive.is/IiVc0"].[/URL] The law is fairly narrow and doesn't stop you from broadcasting your opinions (unless you want to arbitrarily discriminate people based on the mentioned categories, but even then it seems like it wouldn't apply in all possible cases). That's the English version, but you can of course look it up in German too. I have to link this about every one or two months because someone has misconceptions about it, but this is the first time someone from here is ignorant of its contents (assuming that's wasn't a rhetoric question).[/QUOTE] That's not narrow at all. It doesn't even include intent. Essentially every insult/attack/argument against any religious group could technically fall under one of those points. The only requirement is that it "incites hatred" against a group, even if you didn't intend it to.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52097126]That's not narrow at all. It doesn't even include intent. Essentially every insult/attack/argument against any religious group could technically fall under one of those points. The only requirement is that it "incites hatred" against a group, even if you didn't intend it to.[/QUOTE] The existence of intention is, in this case, not relevant. As it is for most laws. edit: Also I'd like to note that we have (mostly) competent judges. Let's look at an example. You own a facebook page that has a couple of thousand followers. You post typical right-wing bullshit which is borderline illegal, but not technically illegal. Then you write a comment on some politicians page along the lines of "Muslims are the root of our problems, it's a shame you still exist, you should be purged yadda yadda". What is most likely going to happen is that someone will report that comment and facebook is going to remove it. Now what could also technically happen is that the politician might press charges against you and the government might also sue you for incitement of hatred. edit2: If I got some of this wrong, please correct me fellow Germans. I'm not a law student.

What an awful thing to introduce, I thought things might get better with the removal of the GEMA. Finally being able to watch music clips on youtube was already quite a success to be honest.

[QUOTE=uber.;52097584]The existence of intention is, in this case, not relevant. As it is for most laws. edit: Also I'd like to note that we have (mostly) competent judges. Let's look at an example. You own a facebook page that has a couple of thousand followers. You post typical right-wing bullshit which is borderline illegal, but not technically illegal. Then you write a comment on some politicians page along the lines of "Muslims are the root of our problems, it's a shame you still exist, you should be purged yadda yadda". What is most likely going to happen is that someone will report that comment and facebook is going to remove it. Now what could also technically happen is that the politician might press charges against you and the government might also sue you for incitement of hatred. edit2: If I got some of this wrong, please correct me fellow Germans. I'm not a law student.[/QUOTE] So if context and intention is not relevant, then say goodbye to standup comedy? Or any jokes for that matter?