Denuvo gets day 0 cracks for both Total War: Warhammer 2 and FIFA 18 - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Jelman;52731789]EA are not going to be happy[/QUOTE] I know someone working on one of these games, You have no earthly idea how pissed off they (The Devs + Producers) are going to be considering how much of a bitch Denuvo has been prior to release.

[QUOTE=SebiWarrior;52732172]Piracy is never going away You gotta offer the best services in order to minimize illegal downloading of your game. Which also means, stop restricting it in foreign countries and the like, no always-online, etc[/QUOTE] "offering a better servcie" are just weasel words used to justify piracy. Offering a better service isn't going to mitigate it either. When steam launched and changed the face of game distribution, people just cracked steam instead of individual games. Netflix hasn't stopped rampant piracy either despite generally offering a better and easier alternative to buying films or paying for TV. A lot of people who pirate regularly aren't going to stop when you remove your DRM. After all, there's not a better price than "free". At most you'll stop people who pirate periodically. Who are still in the wrong, but generally not actually a threat to your income on average.

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52731803]lmfao that'll teach them to be honest, I'm more worried about the next evolution of DRM since we've reached this point.[/QUOTE] What would work: Actually putting part of the game on a server (and not just saying you did like the Sim City devs). Something like Rust or Minecraft (or Gmod for that matter) is just about uncrackable because all the (better) servers check licenses against the main server. It [I]is[/I] possible to create server emulators, but due to the amount of work involved in reverse-engineering the server if its code or executable isn't publicly available, there will be a very significant delay. [editline]30th September 2017[/editline] Though of course players will absolutely hate you for this if you put it into a game that's not multiplayer-centric.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;52732194]"offering a better servcie" are just weasel words used to justify piracy. Offering a better service isn't going to mitigate it either. When steam launched and changed the face of game distribution, people just cracked steam instead of individual games. Netflix hasn't stopped rampant piracy either despite generally offering a better and easier alternative to buying films or paying for TV. A lot of people who pirate regularly aren't going to stop when you remove your DRM. After all, there's not a better price than "free". At most you'll stop people who pirate periodically. Who are still in the wrong, but generally not actually a threat to your income on average.[/QUOTE] You can't stop Piracy, yet [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/07/04/internet-piracy-falls-to-record-lows-amid-rise-of-spotify-and-ne/"]Spotify and Netflix[/URL] are doing a hell of a good job at reducing piracy compared to traditional DRM. And those people you mention wouldn't buy it anyway even if you had a 100% working DRM. Tell me then, how can a game like the Witcher 3 sell so much and GoG still function without having DRM? Also, given how easy it is to pirate music, how can something like Spotify or Tidal still exist?

[QUOTE=The bird Man;52732041]Remember when people said Denuvo would be the end of piracy?[/QUOTE] this isnt even the purpose or mission of denuvo

[QUOTE=gokiyono;52732258]You can't stop Piracy, yet [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/07/04/internet-piracy-falls-to-record-lows-amid-rise-of-spotify-and-ne/"]Spotify and Netflix[/URL] are doing a hell of a good job at reducing piracy compared to traditional DRM. And those people you mention wouldn't buy it anyway even if you had a 100% working DRM. Tell me then, how can a game like the Witcher 3 sell so much and GoG still function without having DRM?[/QUOTE] Witcher 3 isn't filled to the brim with hamfisted executive meddling ruining things, overpriced DLC or special catering to certain social groups/niches. The game isn't exactly my thing, but even I can see from the examples of other playing it that it is a game made primarily with passion for the medium instead of another big paycheck for the publisher and payraise for the executives.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52732207]What would work: Actually putting part of the game on a server (and not just saying you did like the Sim City devs). Something like Rust or Minecraft (or Gmod for that matter) is just about uncrackable because all the (better) servers check licenses against the main server. It [I]is[/I] possible to create server emulators, but due to the amount of work involved in reverse-engineering the server if its code or executable isn't publicly available, there will be a very significant delay. [editline]30th September 2017[/editline] Though of course players will absolutely hate you for this if you put it into a game that's not multiplayer-centric.[/QUOTE] lmfao Minecraft is one of these games that have been pirated to hell and back again, a fuckton of people are looking to play with friends instead of random, and the pirated versions are just as ok. I mean, shit, I bought minecraft and played mostly on pirated servers with friends. [editline]30th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=rampageturke 2;52732266]this isnt even the purpose or mission of denuvo[/QUOTE] Remember when people said Denuvo would guarantee you a few weeks of no piracy?

[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;52732266]this isnt even the purpose or mission of denuvo[/QUOTE] Are you gonna say something like that it is to delay it for like a week until the inevitable happens?

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52731803]lmfao that'll teach them to be honest, I'm more worried about the next evolution of DRM since we've reached this point.[/QUOTE] What I hope is that this conflict will be a deterrent to developers/publishers in the future when they're thinking about implementing DRM that inconveniences buyers in any way.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;52732258]You can't stop Piracy, yet [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/07/04/internet-piracy-falls-to-record-lows-amid-rise-of-spotify-and-ne/"]Spotify and Netflix[/URL] are doing a hell of a good job at reducing piracy compared to traditional DRM. And those people you mention wouldn't buy it anyway even if you had a 100% working DRM. Tell me then, how can a game like the Witcher 3 sell so much and GoG still function without having DRM? Also, given how easy it is to pirate music, how can something like Spotify or Tidal still exist?[/QUOTE] GoG and the likes can survive because they market themselves incredibly well, and offer people who were likely to have bought something in the first place (given time and/ or thought) a product with lesser restrictions. People who are going to pirate anyway still wont use those sites. I even said this. You're not going to stop those who pirate everything they want. You [I]might[/I] be able to lessen the number of people who pirate occasionally (Spotify and Netflix have managed to impact this part a fair bit). They do offer decent services after all, I can listen to almost any music I want for not much per month. But dedicated pirates will still disagree with this because "hurr durr dont own it", "hurr durr not free" or whatever. [editline]30th September 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Van-man;52732276]Witcher 3 isn't filled to the brim with hamfisted executive meddling ruining things, overpriced DLC or special catering to certain social groups/niches.[/QUOTE] A majority of people who consume any form of media could care less about this kind of shit. As evidenced by the sales of a lot of mainstream series that are "full to the brim with hamfisted executive meddling". As long as the game is marketed right, or just looks straight up good (and TW3 made some fucking dope first impressions), it'll still sell. Also, massively over-blowing the impact of "catering to special groups". The only people who really seem to get up in arms about that stuff spend more time whining about video games being bad than playing the fuckin things I swear. Most consumers, again, could care less than CoD has female player models or there's some badly written homoerotic plot lines in a game or whatever is outraging "The Internet" this week.

[QUOTE=Loofiloo;52732343]What I hope is that this conflict will be a deterrent to developers/publishers in the future when they're thinking about implementing DRM that inconveniences buyers in any way.[/QUOTE] If anything, it's a signal to developers/publishers that even if you make an effective DRM solution that [I]doesn't[/I] inconvenience buyers (as I have yet to see any substantiated examples of Denuvo causing problems for legitimate buyers), the community will still treat it like the spawn of Satan. I suspect the next big thing in DRM isn't going to try too hard to be low-profile and unobtrusive, because clearly that approach isn't accepted by gamers either.

[QUOTE=gokiyono;52732258]You can't stop Piracy, yet [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/07/04/internet-piracy-falls-to-record-lows-amid-rise-of-spotify-and-ne/"]Spotify and Netflix[/URL] are doing a hell of a good job at reducing piracy compared to traditional DRM. And those people you mention wouldn't buy it anyway even if you had a 100% working DRM. Tell me then, how can a game like the Witcher 3 sell so much and GoG still function without having DRM? Also, given how easy it is to pirate music, how can something like Spotify or Tidal still exist?[/QUOTE] It pretty much comes down to what Gabe Newell said. Provide a great service and people are less likely to pirate.

[QUOTE=Keychain;52732440]It pretty much comes down to what Gabe Newell said. Provide a great service and people are less likely to pirate.[/QUOTE] I can see a lot of truth in this. Maybe a bit of a weird example; A lot of Australians complain about how bad the netflix collection is, amongst the other streaming services too. so torrenting is pretty common that or people just don't want to pay Prison country

[QUOTE=hexpunK;52732194]At most you'll stop people who pirate periodically. Who are still in the wrong, but generally not actually a threat to your income on average.[/QUOTE] According to that EU study on piracy posted a week or two ago, those people are actually the greatest threat to your income. The study found that the main reason people pirate [i]in lieu of purchasing[/i] (meaning the specific case where a product is pirated rather than being bought) had nothing to do with what offers the best service, rather it comes down to because they'd rather not spend money if they can get the same product for free. People who pirate habitually for products they would never buy are a niche that can't be appeased and likely don't constitute a substantial loss. It's the people who will pirate if it's readily available and convenient who would be most likely to otherwise buy the product, and those are the people DRM is meant to thwart. According to the study the same is true for games, movies, music, and even books. Drawing from the conclusion of the study, services like Netflix work because they're cheap and easier to use for your average user than finding torrents. Gamers as a whole tend to be more Internet-savvy than your average film viewer, though, so there's a much higher bar for what level of service beats piracy for convenience. GOG and The Witcher are successful in spite of inevitable losses from 'opportunistic' piracy because they're a well-designed service and a well-designed game respectively, not because the lack of DRM is an enticement.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;52732178] It had a shockingly good run for a DRM solution though. We've only started seeing rapid cracks fairly reccently. And a lot of them were caused by games using slightly older versions of the software that had already been exploited. If the current cracks rely on falsifying a license rather than actually disabling the DRM, then that's kinda novel for a game crack. [/QUOTE] Strongly disagree. Starforce was truly uncracked for a bit less than two years.

[QUOTE=catbarf;52732464]According to that EU study on piracy posted a week or two ago, those people are actually the greatest threat to your income. The study found that the main reason people pirate [i]in lieu of purchasing[/i] (meaning the specific case where a product is pirated rather than being bought) had nothing to do with what offers the best service, rather it comes down to because they'd rather not spend money if they can get the same product for free. People who pirate habitually for products they would never buy are a niche that can't be appeased and likely don't constitute a substantial loss. It's the people who will pirate if it's readily available and convenient who would be most likely to otherwise buy the product, and those are the people DRM is meant to thwart. According to the study the same is true for games, movies, music, and even books. Drawing from the conclusion of the study, services like Netflix work because they're cheap and easier to use for your average user than finding torrents. Gamers as a whole tend to be more Internet-savvy than your average film viewer, though, so there's a much higher bar for what level of service beats piracy for convenience. GOG and The Witcher are successful in spite of inevitable losses from 'opportunistic' piracy because they're a well-designed service and a well-designed game respectively, not because the lack of DRM is an enticement.[/QUOTE] Ohh, I think I missed that study in that case. I suppose that makes sense actually, as the constant pirates were probably never factored in to the predictions the business made in the first place. They were never going to buy the game anyway, so it wouldn't make sense to count them (though I have a feeling companies use the piracy numbers to judge interest either way, similarly to sales numbers).

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52732207]What would work: Actually putting part of the game on a server (and not just saying you did like the Sim City devs). Something like Rust or Minecraft (or Gmod for that matter) is just about uncrackable because all the (better) servers check licenses against the main server. It [I]is[/I] possible to create server emulators, but due to the amount of work involved in reverse-engineering the server if its code or executable isn't publicly available, there will be a very significant delay. [editline]30th September 2017[/editline] Though of course players will absolutely hate you for this if you put it into a game that's not multiplayer-centric.[/QUOTE] this kind of always online drm is arguably worse than denuvo and nobody has ever been happy to see a company implement it

How to make reluctant pirates buy your game: 1. Create a good game. 2. Make a boss stupid unfair and difficult. 3. Wait for the inevitable crack. 4. Wait another day or two. 5. Release a patch that nerfs that boss. [sp]This actually happened. Unintentionally, I'm sure, but still...[/sp]

[QUOTE=hexpunK;52732194]"offering a better servcie" are just weasel words used to justify piracy. Offering a better service isn't going to mitigate it either. When steam launched and changed the face of game distribution, people just cracked steam instead of individual games. Netflix hasn't stopped rampant piracy either despite generally offering a better and easier alternative to buying films or paying for TV. A lot of people who pirate regularly aren't going to stop when you remove your DRM. After all, there's not a better price than "free". At most you'll stop people who pirate periodically. Who are still in the wrong, but generally not actually a threat to your income on average.[/QUOTE] Yes, some people will always pirate. But there's a sizable population of people who would rather pay for things than pirate them [I]if they were allowed to[/I]. [URL="http://www.gamesradar.com/gabe-newell-piracy-issue-service-not-price/"]Gabe Newell has talked about this pretty extensively and I think it's safe to say he's something of an authority on the subject[/URL]. [quote]“One thing that we have learned is that piracy is not a pricing issue. It’s a service issue,” explained Newell during his time on stage at the Washington Technology Industry Association's (WTIA) Tech NW conference. “The easiest way to stop piracy is not by putting antipiracy technology to work. It’s by giving those people a service that’s better than what they’re receiving from the pirates.” For example, Newell noted that Valve was warned against the Russian market due to its massive pirate community. In actuality, Steam offered easier access to games, more options, and higher quality downloads than its underground competitors, thereby turning Russia into the studio's most lucrative continental European market outside of Germany.[/quote] As a personal anecdote, take Funimation's streaming site. I purchased a subscription to it to watch an anime I like legally. I try to use their website, and it doesn't work. It buffers like crazy and I can't even get through a single episode. Some episodes don't even load. I see other people are having the same problem. So, having wasted my time, I go to a certain anime streaming site, and watch it flawlessly for free. If Funimation had offered an even remotely decent service, I would have happily kept paying for it, but they didn't and don't and now here I am.

I suppose in a sense microtransactions act as a way to combat the "profit loss" of piracy. By forcing people who actually pay for the game to keep paying they might be thinking they are making up for lost money, which is of course pretty nasty.

Why do devs even bother?

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52731803]to be honest, I'm more worried about the next evolution of DRM since we've reached this point.[/QUOTE]games are all stored on the cloud and you're not allowed to have them on disk and are forced to play in an instance of it emulated on a corporate computer :vs:

IMO, the best way to stop piracy is to: 1) Make a good game that people really want to play. 1) Have constant, good updates. Having to private new versions all the time is annoying. 2) Have good multiplayer content.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52733053]Why do devs even bother?[/QUOTE] Because the publishers tell them to.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52733053]Why do devs even bother?[/QUOTE] Because some short sighted guys in suits tells them to

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;52732880]Yes, some people will always pirate. But there's a sizable population of people who would rather pay for things than pirate them [I]if they were allowed to[/I]. [URL="http://www.gamesradar.com/gabe-newell-piracy-issue-service-not-price/"]Gabe Newell has talked about this pretty extensively and I think it's safe to say he's something of an authority on the subject[/URL].[/QUOTE] And how has Valve solved that particular problem? They've gone to microtransaction-driven, always-online products, providing the service that piracy can't match. Is that really the model you want to follow? Also, I've already explained the factors that the EU report identified- it's not just that there are people who would rather pay than pirate if they are allowed to, there are plenty of people who would rather pirate than pay if it's easy and convenient enough. You can make the service available and convenient and the biggest faction of pirates will still pirate simply because convenience can never beat free. [QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52733053]Why do devs even bother?[/QUOTE] Because actuaries, business analysts, and market research experts with significantly more direct experience than either of the two posters above me have calculated that the benefits generally outweigh the costs. DRM is an expensive pain in the ass to implement, penny-pinching publishers don't mandate it just because they feel like it. DRM will continue to be implemented until relevant experts, as opposed to random commenters on the Internet, determine that the ROI isn't there anymore.

[QUOTE=catbarf;52733248]And how has Valve solved that particular problem? They've gone to microtransaction-driven, always-online products, providing the service that piracy can't match. Is that really the model you want to follow?[/QUOTE] That sort of thing might work in the short term but long term I doubt it's going to hold up, a lot of gamers are already fed up with Valve and their business practices, the only decent way to combat game piracy is to have a good relationship with the players and put out quality content that is easy to access and reasonably priced, even so there is always going to be some degree of piracy but that's a loss that companies are just going to have to accept.

I guess there is not much time left before people behind denuvo create a new company with the different name. (denuvo was made by the securom team when securom was completelly cracked)

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52733053]Why do devs even bother?[/QUOTE] And how is letting piracy go on okay? As an small indie dev, seeing pirated copies of my game floating around is very disheartening. Not only to me but also to its legitimate buyers. We spend months, sometimes years on game developement, only to let it get stolen? How fair is that :rolleyes:? Would you be okay with someone robbing your shop, because most people who buy there don't do so?

[QUOTE=Mitchel.;52733734]And how is letting piracy go on okay? As an small indie dev, seeing pirated copies of my game floating around is very disheartening. Not only to me but also to its legitimate buyers. We spend months, sometimes years on game developement, only to let it get stolen? How fair is that :rolleyes:? Would you be okay with someone robbing your shop, because most people who buy there don't do so?[/QUOTE] For probably the millionth time, piracy and theft are not equivalent.