Shooting at Florida School, Shooter IS in custody. - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133010]In gang shootouts it's not that they're not defenseless, it's that they're also committing attempted murder. It's two or more groups of people actively trying to kill one another for criminal reasons. I would still consider a teacher with a conceal carry weapon to be a victim of a mass shooting because the intent of the shooter was to victimize the defenseless. A teacher happening to be armed doesn't alter that intent.[/QUOTE] If one gang initiates the hit on the other though, isn't one victimizing the other, and the other defending themselves by retaliating? Is this really that much different then a concealed carrier defending himself? In the end the person defending themselves is still committing attempted murder, it's just in self defense. I think it's naive to assume that all gang violence is militaristic skirmishes that are initiated by both parties simultaneously.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133013]No, firearms enthusiasts like to point to Switzerland as an example of the fact that guns don't cause gun violence. Unless you plan to deny that 25% of Swiss people own firearms and are allowed to keep ammunition for those firearms in their homes, that example stands.[/QUOTE] No shit. Everyone knows that guns themselves don’t cause gun violence, as if they were able to seduce their owners with bad thoughts. Loose and inconsistent gun control laws, ineffective background checks, do nothing legislators, and ease of access make it much easier for people to have access to tools that can do massive amounts of damage. So what? Is it a Mental health issue? No! Not really either. When less than 5% of the mentally ill are involved in violent crime and a large portion of mentally ill are the ones actually affected by violent crime, it’s really not. Here’s a great article on the relationship between mental illness and the association to gun crime if you want to get learned [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/[/url]

[QUOTE=Duck M.;53133025]If one gang initiates the hit on the other though, isn't one victimizing the other and the other is defending themselves by retaliating? Is this really that much different then a concealed carrier defending himself? In the end the person defending themselves is still committing attempted murder, it's just in self defense. I think it's naive to assume that all gang violence is militaristic skirmishes that are initiated by both parties simultaneously.[/QUOTE] I guess - I'm having trouble articulating what I mean. Ultimately if gang members were not actively engaged in a criminal lifestyle they would not be under threat from rival gang members. The gang members are intrinsically in the wrong by being gang members and participating in gang activity; being killed by other criminals while in the commission of a crime themselves is not the same dynamic as a teacher being gunned down by a student.

If anything, scapegoating Mental Health as the cause of these issues does nothing but to create an innacurate perception that mental illness is a root cause when it’s a multi faceted issue that encompasses legislation, culture, economics, and much more .

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133030]No shit. Everyone knows that guns themselves don’t cause gun violence, as if they were able to seduce their owners with bad thoughts. Loose and inconsistent gun control laws, ineffective background checks, do nothing legislators, and ease of access make it much easier for people to have access to tools that can do massive amounts of damage. So what? Is it a Mental health issue? No! Not really either. When less than 5% of the mentally ill are involved in violent crime and a large portion of mentally ill are the ones actually affected by violent crime, it’s really not. Here’s a great article on the relationship between mental illness and the association to gun crime if you want to get learned [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4318286/[/url][/QUOTE] That is another ass backwards dishonest statistic lmao. I'm not here to argue with manipulators. Sort yourself out if you want to have an actual conversation. What you just did would be the equivalent of saying "less than 0.05% of the people equipped with legs in this country commit crimes." Mental illness is such a broad category you don't get to pull numbers out based on "mental illness" in its entirety to try and attack the notion that people having mental breaks due to being abused are more prone to committing spontaneous violence.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53132929]Switzerland is kind of a good example of the fact that guns can not be directly linked to the prevalence of violent crime. [B]A quarter of the population is armed with actual automatic assault rifles[/B] (the kind that are too scary to be legal in the US)[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133013]No, firearms enthusiasts like to point to Switzerland as an example of the fact that guns don't cause violence. [B]Unless you plan to deny that 25% of Swiss people own firearms[/B] and are allowed to keep ammunition for those firearms in their homes, that example stands.[/QUOTE] You said 1/4'th of the population owns automatic assault rifles, and now you say 25% of the population owns guns. So, 100% of swiss gun owners own automatic assault rifles? Weird.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133037]If anything, scapegoating Mental Health as the cause of these issues does nothing but to create an innacurate perception that mental illness is a root cause when it’s a multi faceted issue that encompasses legislation, culture, economics, and much more .[/QUOTE] Mental Health isnt the only cause people bring up in these threads you know. Poverty, for example.

[QUOTE=Paul-Simon;53133043]You said 1/4'th of the population owns automatic assault rifles, and now you say 25% of the population owns guns. So, 100% of swiss gun owners own automatic assault rifles? Weird.[/QUOTE] You're right; a good proportion of them aren't actively in possession of said automatic assault rifles, but most Swiss gun owners have probably been in possession of them at some point due to the nature of gun ownership in Switzerland. The actual statistic is 24.45% of the population owns a firearm. If you want to run the math to figure out what percentage of the Swiss population is in the military, you can figure out roughly how many of them have automatic assault rifles in their homes. I am sure it is significantly higher than the US' rate. Anyway I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by attacking off the cuff statements instead of getting to the meat of the discussion. If you really need me to start using precise numbers and citing my sources I can do that.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133040]That is another ass backwards dishonest statistic lmao. I'm not here to argue with manipulators. Sort yourself out if you want to have an actual conversation. What you just did would be the equivalent of saying "less than 0.05% of the people equipped with legs in this country commit crimes." Mental illness is such a broad category you don't get to pull numbers out based on "mental illness" in its entirety to try and attack the notion that people having mental breaks due to being abused are more prone to committing spontaneous violence.[/QUOTE] Less than 5% of violent crimes are committed by people with mental ilness is what I actually meant, or you could just read my source. My point still stands that Mental Health is not our primary target when fixing this issue.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133054]Less than 5% of violent crimes are committed by people with mental ilness is what I actually meant, or you could just read my source. My point still stands that Mental Health is not our primary target when fixing this issue.[/QUOTE] A student snapping after bullying and bringing a gun to school probably won't be said to have any specific mental illness but I think you would have a lot of trouble trying to make the case that he wasn't facing a mental health crisis. I am not suggesting people with benign mental illnesses are randomly going off the rails and mowing down orphanages. But the dark place these kids end up in, with no help in sight, leading up to them committing an act of violence, is definitely a mental health concern. Mental health goes beyond clinical diagnoses. This line you're taking is pretty dishonest and it certainly doesn't serve anyone, but hey, maybe you can win an argument on a technicality instead of reaching an understanding. That'd be better I guess.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133054]Less than 5% of violent crimes are committed by people with mental ilness is what I actually meant, or you could just read my source. My point still stands that Mental Health is not our primary target when fixing this issue.[/QUOTE] Question: How is that defined exactly? Is it in reference to people with clinical diagnosis' who commit those crimes?

I think when most people say its mental health they don't mean the people are diagnosed and being treated for a mental illness. They mean the person had some unforeseen complication that they were not getting help for, didn't know about, or ignored. Doesn't have to be something major, either. Could be a kid that was bullied and ignored to the breaking point. What people generally mean is that a mentally sound person doesn't shoot up a school out of the blue. Though I have only read the abstract of your article.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133036]I guess - I'm having trouble articulating what I mean. [B]Ultimately if gang members were not actively engaged in a criminal lifestyle they would not be under threat from rival gang members. The gang members are intrinsically in the wrong by being gang members and participating in gang activity[/B]; being killed by other criminals while in the commission of a crime themselves is not the same dynamic as a teacher being gunned down by a student.[/QUOTE] I heavily disagree with everything bolded, and feel like its a really privileged mindset to have. Gang culture is heavily cyclical and informed by socioeconomic status. It really isn't as simple as "just dont join a gang and you good". Gang members are not intrinsically in the wrong by being gang members and I feel like they're more victims of circumstance than anything else.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133059]A student snapping after bullying and bringing a gun to school probably won't be said to have any specific mental illness but I think you would have a lot of trouble trying to make the case that he wasn't facing a mental health crisis. I am not suggesting people with benign mental illnesses are randomly going off the rails and mowing down orphanages. But the dark place these kids end up in, with no help in sight, leading up to them committing an act of violence, is definitely a mental health concern. Mental health goes beyond clinical diagnoses.[/QUOTE] Ok so how do you propose we fix this then? Let’s say it actually is a Mental Health issue, do you propose we have minority report esque Psychiastrists monitoring people in the event they snap? What about other countries, America isn’t the only country with mentally ill so how come we seem to be one of the only countries with this issue?

[QUOTE=Duck M.;53133079]I heavily disagree with everything bolded, and feel like its a really privileged mindset to have. Gang culture is heavily cyclical and informed by socioeconomic status. It really isn't as simple as "just dont join a gang and you good". Gang members are not intrinsically in the wrong by being gang members and I feel like they're more victims of circumstance than anything else.[/QUOTE] Eeuhh. I understand it's not that simple, I work in a pretty bad area and have a lot of friends who ended up in that life. It's too prickly of an issue to sum up in simple terms but I think you understand the separation I'm trying to create between gang skirmishes and school shootings. They both technically qualify as "mass shootings" but you can agree that it's a bit alarmist in that it's intentionally used to invoke images of school/mall/concert attacks, not gang skirmishes. There is really no way I can think of to summarize it that doesn't sound too clinical/unconcerned but understand I know it's not easy to avoid the gang culture in these areas and I don't mean to imply it isn't an issue or that they aren't victims of our god-awful society. [editline]14th February 2018[/editline] [QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133080]Ok so how do you propose we fix this then? Let’s say it actually is a Mental Health issue, do you propose we have minority report esque Psychiastrists monitoring people in the event they snap? What about other countries, America isn’t the only country with mentally ill so how come we seem to be one of the only countries with this issue?[/QUOTE] Do you or do you not agree that a student bullied to the breaking point is facing a mental health crisis, whether clinically diagnosed or not? Stop trying to avoid this, if you don't answer that question I'm not engaging you further.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133080]What about other countries, America isn’t the only country with mentally ill so how come we seem to be one of the only countries with this issue?[/QUOTE] Because of a combination of factors within a specific context that differs heavily from country to country and cannot be applied universally.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133080]Ok so how do you propose we fix this then? Let’s say it actually is a Mental Health issue, do you propose we have minority report esque Psychiastrists monitoring people in the event they snap? What about other countries, America isn’t the only country with mentally ill so how come we seem to be one of the only countries with this issue?[/QUOTE] No one is saying someone with diagnosed depression is going to "snap" and shoot up a mall. That's a dangerous way to look at it because it paints the mentally ill as murderous and does [I]nothing[/I] to help. It's not about "snapping" its about being in a state of mind where you have no outlet or support and want to die and kill. No one is saying we need to treat mentally ill people like cattle. What we [I]need[/I] is more support for mental illness from society and have outlets through which people can speak about what's going on with them in a judgement free atmosphere. We need more [I]support[/I] for people who feel like there is none. [editline]14th February 2018[/editline] That argument exists entirely outside the realm of gun violence as well. We need to combat depression, we need to combat suicide, we need to combat these invisible illnesses that people face. Society will be all the better for it.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133082]Eeuhh. I understand it's not that simple, I work in a pretty bad area and have a lot of friends who ended up in that life. It's too prickly of an issue to sum up in simple terms but I think you understand the separation I'm trying to create between gang skirmishes and school shootings. They both technically qualify as "mass shootings" but you can agree that it's a bit alarmist in that it's intentionally used to invoke images of school/mall/concert attacks, not gang skirmishes. There is really no way I can think of to summarize it that doesn't sound too clinical/unconcerned but understand I know it's not easy to avoid the gang culture in these areas and I don't mean to imply it isn't an issue or that they aren't victims of our god-awful society. [/QUOTE] No yeah I understand, no worries or hard feelings. I think this is an interesting issue that I haven't heard people talk about before so I found it fairly compelling to look at [I]why[/I] we made (or are trying to make) such a big distinction between different types of shootings in the first place. You have a fair and reasonable perspective on the issue.

Like, a sound person doesn't decide to go shoot up their high school. What was it then? The gun sure didn't tell him to do it. So what else? Let's see, the poor kid has a disciplinary history, was expelled. That alone points to some troubles in the kids life. I've heard reports of his social media being troubling and fellow students all said he'd be the one to do this sort of thing. The kid was clearly troubled and not in a safe frame of mind. Did he have diagnosed mental issues? I dunno. Was he not mentally well? Absolutely. Perhaps if the kid had proper counseling, friends, family, or at the very least a fucking hotline he could call about his feelings, maybe he wouldn't have done it today. Maybe something could've been done to make him not do it at all. [I]This[/I] is why mental health is brought up after these things. Because no one in their right mind would've done it. Even hardened criminals, gangs, and cartels generally keep to themselves and "business" partners.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133082]Eeuhh. I understand it's not that simple, I work in a pretty bad area and have a lot of friends who ended up in that life. It's too prickly of an issue to sum up in simple terms but I think you understand the separation I'm trying to create between gang skirmishes and school shootings. They both technically qualify as "mass shootings" but you can agree that it's a bit alarmist in that it's intentionally used to invoke images of school/mall/concert attacks, not gang skirmishes. There is really no way I can think of to summarize it that doesn't sound too clinical/unconcerned but understand I know it's not easy to avoid the gang culture in these areas and I don't mean to imply it isn't an issue or that they aren't victims of our god-awful society. [editline]14th February 2018[/editline] Do you or do you not agree that a student bullied to the breaking point is facing a mental health crisis, whether clinically diagnosed or not? Stop trying to avoid this, if you don't answer that question I'm not engaging you further.[/QUOTE] Yeah absolutely I agree! Now, can you agree that ease of access to firearms can contribute to someone’s decision to shoot up a school and cause the most damage possible?

[URL="https://www.thedailybeast.com/nick-cruz-parkland-florida-shooting-stoneman-douglas-high-school?ref=home"]according to students who knew him the shooter held right-wing extremist beliefs and had been expelled from school[/URL]

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133116]Yeah absolutely I agree! Now, can you agree that ease of access to firearms can contribute to someone’s decision to shoot up a school and cause the most damage possible?[/QUOTE] [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1593721&p=53132671&viewfull=1#post53132671]I don't know, can I?[/url]

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133116]Yeah absolutely I agree! Now, can you agree that ease of access to firearms can contribute to someone’s decision to shoot up a school and cause the most damage possible?[/QUOTE] Have you actually been reading the posts he's been posting or what.

[QUOTE=OvB;53133109]Like, a sound person doesn't decide to go shoot up their high school. What was it then? The gun sure didn't tell him to do it. So what else? Let's see, the poor kid has a disciplinary history, was expelled. That alone points to some troubles in the kids life. I've heard reports of his social media being troubling and fellow students all said he'd be the one to do this sort of thing. The kid was clearly troubled and not in a safe frame of mind. Did he have diagnosed mental issues? I dunno. Was he not mentally well? Absolutely. Perhaps if the kid had proper counseling, friends, family, or at the very least a fucking hotline he could call about his feelings, maybe he wouldn't have done it today. Maybe something could've been done to make him not do it at all. [I]This[/I] is why mental health is brought up after these things. Because no one in their right mind would've done it. Even hardened criminals, gangs, and cartels generally keep to themselves and "business" partners.[/QUOTE] Of course he wasn’t mentally well, most people who commit mass shootings aren’t but again we’re painting this as a mental health issue. How many percentage of people suffering from mental illness don’t commit mass shootings? Nearly 100%!!! So if Mental health would be the barrier to someone committing mass shootings and we have a “poor” mental health system on this country, why aren’t there significantly more mass shootings? Do you think that it’s because it isn’t just a mental health issue? Do you think ease of access to weapons and having firearms that can inflict many casualties contributed at all to this event?

[QUOTE=AaronM202;53133125]Have you actually been reading the posts he's been posting or what.[/QUOTE] I joined late but have debated with Grenadic before about guns so I assumed.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133126]Of course he wasn’t mentally well, most people who commit mass shootings aren’t but again we’re painting this as a mental health issue. How many percentage of people suffering from mental illness don’t commit mass shootings? Nearly 100%!!! So if Mental health would be the barrier to someone committing mass shootings and we have a “poor” mental health system on this country, why aren’t there significantly more mass shootings? Do you think that it’s because it isn’t just a mental health issue? Do you think ease of access to weapons and having firearms that can inflict many casualties contributed at all to this event?[/QUOTE] How many people don't commit mass shootings? Nearly 100%! Bam! Mass shootings, gone! Dude, you did it! You solved the gun crisis!

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133126]Of course he wasn’t mentally well, most people who commit mass shootings aren’t but again we’re painting this as a mental health issue. How many percentage of people suffering from mental illness don’t commit mass shootings? Nearly 100%!!! So if Mental health would be the barrier to someone committing mass shootings and we have a “poor” mental health system on this country, why aren’t there significantly more mass shootings? Do you think that it’s because it isn’t just a mental health issue? Do you think ease of access to weapons and having firearms that can inflict many casualties contributed at all to this event?[/QUOTE] Are you intentionally refusing to understand these very simple, very clear statements people are making?

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;53133128]How many people don't commit mass shootings? Nearly 100%! Bam! Mass shootings, gone! Dude, you did it! You solved the gun crisis![/QUOTE] Way to misrepresent my point. My point was that if were pointing the finger at “Mental Health” when a vast majority of people don’t commit mass shootings, then mental health can’t be the main contributor to this issue.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133132]Way to misrepresent my point. My point was that if were pointing the finger at “Mental Health” when a vast majority of people don’t commit mass shootings, then mental health can’t be the main contributor to this issue.[/QUOTE] Pay attention, jesus christ, dude. [editline]14th February 2018[/editline] Let me break it down for you: People keep saying Mental Health because many of these mass shooters are clearly unhinged and there can be steps taken in regards to bettering how the country treats those issues and how its seen socially so as to combat that, which would have the benefit of also helping everyone else with those problems.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;53133132]Way to misrepresent my point. My point was that if were pointing the finger at “Mental Health” when a vast majority of people don’t commit mass shootings, then mental health can’t be the main contributor to this issue.[/QUOTE] You are really not one to complain about your point being misrepresented. These kids are snapping because obvious trouble signs are being ignored. Eventually they reach a breaking point. Maybe without guns they'd grab a knife or a 2x4 or jump in front of a train or something but none of those things are really ideal solutions. You know what would be an ideal solution? A teacher noticing and knowing how to talk to him about his feelings. Or his fucking parents talking to him. Or his fellow students not picking on him because they understand the potential consequences of abusing someone over and over. Or any other outcome that doesn't involve a child snapping and ruining his own life forever and many more? But no - it's the gun's fault, right? Because nearly 100% of mentally ill people don't commit crimes. Your ability to reach watertight conclusions out of a smorgasbord of completely irrelevant data is astounding.