Say Goodbye To X+Y: Should Community Colleges Abolish Algebra? - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=evilweazel;52497092]Never was good at math, I'm still horrible at it, and trying to learn it gives me something akin to anxiety. It just legitimately does not make any sense to me, I honestly can't wrap my head around it very well past like, basic geometry. Having to know all the secret rules and formulas, going through all the time to solve the problem and looking down at the choices and not seeing what you got for an answer there, or having the calculator vomit some random numbers with a decimal point in the middle when all of your answers are whole numbers, turning setences into numbers that are in the right order and going all about it the exact right way.... Christ, makes me nervous just thinking about it again, honestly. :v: Could never get it, mostly still can't. I was put in a bunch of classes for kids who were shit at math, never helped. It was just an extra period of staring at questions I couldn't even begin to solve. It's like the numbers just get jumbled up and crash together in my head until its one giant mess that's giving me a headache. Still, that's not a reason to get rid of it. I've ran into situations where I can use a little of what I remember.[/QUOTE] I just recently passed a College Algebra course at my CC that combined a remedial Algebra 2 and College Algebra with a C+. Now almost half a year later I feel like I almost forgot everything I learned because I don't feel like I apply it that much. I'm terrible at it because everyone always taught the "in theory" method and I'm a "in application" person. It was a lot of memorization that I promptly forget because I don't use it all the time. I bombed it in HS and had a much better time with it in college, and as a first gen student myself both my parents are useless at math because neither of them can help me with it growing up.

If they want to cut random mathematics why not just instead change our education system so that different schools offer differ classes for people of different aptitudes?

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;52497557]I think the way it is suppose to work is. You have middle school algebra, then high school algebra, and finally college algebra.[/QUOTE] You either take Pre-calc or College Algebra in College. Both cover the same material more or less, one just focuses harder in some spots.

[QUOTE=gman003-main;52497504]Wait wait wait Algebra is a [I]college[/I] course in California? I took my first algebra class in middle school, and was into calculus by the end of high school. I know I was accelerated even by my state's standards but I'm surprised you can get through high school in California without algebra.[/QUOTE] Typically, a lot of first-year uni classes are repeats of what you learn in the final year of high school. I assume it's for people who didn't take those classes or are starting uni later in life instead of right out of high school.

[QUOTE=gman003-main;52497504]Wait wait wait Algebra is a [I]college[/I] course in California? I took my first algebra class in middle school, and was into calculus by the end of high school. I know I was accelerated even by my state's standards but I'm surprised you can get through high school in California without algebra.[/QUOTE] There are many different algebra courses you take typically. Here, you take algebra 1 and algebra 2, then either "advanced algebra with trig" or pre-calculus, in high school before calculus. You only need algebra 1 and algebra 2 out of those to graduate. I took pre-calc in college, which was basically just a big algebra review.

In my college course for machining, I am required to learn biology, and of course, I failed it, and my entire average was fucked (despite desperately trying to get a passing grade of 50%) I still managed to get 90+ in every other class. Colleges really go out of their way to make subjects like algebra and "standard" courses as accessible as possible to everyone, and doing it that way, they make it far too difficult / easy. It's like high school all over again.

[QUOTE=RikohZX;52496863]I mean, it really depends on the field someone's hoping to work in. Algebra is essential in some, and unnecessary in others. It's a significant skill schools try to push onto students and yet it's treated apathetically at best and being replaced with retarded shit like common core mathematics at worst. Hell, I was too unskilled at math in general to handle algebra properly in all of its entirety, and thus my high school went lax and just let me slip by special education circumstances in comparison to everyone else; most of whom went into jobs that don't require the more complex parts of algebra and trigonometry. But abolishing algebra altogether is also a retarded idea.[/QUOTE] "Common core math" typically gets a bad rap for no reason. Typically its just more modern methods for teaching different calculations, and then kids ask their parents for help, the parents don't immediately recognize the methods and don't bother to learn the new ones, then they complain to the teachers, "What is the COMMON CORE shit teaching our [I]kids!?[/I] This isn't the right way to do it!" There are valid reason to dislike or at least be skeptical of the common core system, but most of the complaints about it you might see online are genuinely stupid, and not even related to common core. [editline]22nd July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=MissingGlitch;52496960]Keep algebra. But Calculus is pure evil.[/QUOTE] Almost all issues students have with calculus is insufficient algebra background. Calculus is about 3 or 4 fundamentally new concepts, and then a whole bunch of algebra around them.

I had a terrible time with math when I was in school. I never even made it to algebra, I was instead put into this class called "tech math", which is essentially just a place for you to put the football team and the wrestling team so they can get a math credit without doing any math classes. Seriously no joke it was me, the only scrawny little white kid, surrounded by what looked like full grown adults (almost all black). Just me and the wrestling and football teams, not learning a single bit of anything, just coasting through and getting a credit. Didn't end up doing me any good though, I ended up dropping out. Oh and the teacher for the class was the wrestling coach. I got a lot of sleep in that class. I was in advanced science and language classes, though, but I failed most of them from not doing any homework/sleeping in class. Never took the SAT. Education just never mattered to me, and I've never had my sights set on college. I can't even imagine ever going back into a school building, much less taking and passing any classes. I just don't know what it feels like to walk into a school building and not feel like dying. This is my experience with American public education.

[QUOTE=JohnnyMo1;52497601] Almost all issues students have with calculus is insufficient algebra background. Calculus is about 3 or 4 fundamentally new concepts, and then a whole bunch of algebra around them.[/QUOTE] Amusingly, the only problem I had with Calc I was building a fundamental understanding of the chain rule. I got through the class by just memorizing the common chain-rule expansions. It wasn't until I was halfway through Calc II that I had the chain rule suddenly click for me. :v:

[QUOTE=Shirt.;52497492]Give math classes small personal robot arms and have the teacher come up with a course to exercise not only the students programming skills but also their mathematical ones. 2 birds with one stone and you also get to teach kids radians and self terminating equations in a much more intuitive way. Sure its expensive but its better than wasting money on iPads that only serve to distract students. Such an arm could be programmable via graphing calculator if you REALLY want to cut costs.[/QUOTE] It'd probably be even cheaper to just use cheap servo-driven arms with a RaspberryPi, but even then, for most public schools that's still beyond the realm of affordability. Just because the materials are cheap doesn't mean the kits would be cheap, as it wouldn't likely be a high-volume item.

Thing is I actually aced chemistry and love it because there is a laid out table of everything you can work with that has definite values but no matter what the most I can do in math is a C. However my issue is not with math but how its taught. There is a build-up associated with chemistry. You learn how the components are arranged then you learn the components themselves, then how they interact etc. With math each week I was taught something different due to "math quotas" and as soon as I got the hang of it we moved on which does not enforce memorization but actively weakens it in the curriculum. The abstractness of higher math in of itself only makes the issue worse. Algebra isn't hard because it is, its hard because stupid monkeys don't know how to teach it properly and enforce curriculum standards based on the 1930s.

[QUOTE=evilweazel;52497092]Never was good at math, I'm still horrible at it, and trying to learn it gives me something akin to anxiety. It just legitimately does not make any sense to me, I honestly can't wrap my head around it very well past like, basic geometry. Having to know all the secret rules and formulas, going through all the time to solve the problem and looking down at the choices and not seeing what you got for an answer there, or having the calculator vomit some random numbers with a decimal point in the middle when all of your answers are whole numbers, turning setences into numbers that are in the right order and going all about it the exact right way.... Christ, makes me nervous just thinking about it again, honestly. :v: Could never get it, mostly still can't. I was put in a bunch of classes for kids who were shit at math, never helped. It was just an extra period of staring at questions I couldn't even begin to solve. It's like the numbers just get jumbled up and crash together in my head until its one giant mess that's giving me a headache. Still, that's not a reason to get rid of it. I've ran into situations where I can use a little of what I remember.[/QUOTE] Dude, are you me? You just described every single issue I have with math. Though I'm not sure if you also struggle with even [I]basic[/I] mathematics, because I do, and holy shit it makes me feel like I must be the dumbest fucking organic being on the planet because I still have to do basic addition and subtraction on my fingers slowly and meticulously, and I can lose track very easily. Larger numbers I have to use a calculator for, and also for most multiplication that isn't in basic tens or something super memorable. Being so dangerously inept with numbers is not something I wish on anyone. It's horrible.

[QUOTE=J$ Psychotic;52496849]If someone doesn't have the logical skills required to understand algebra, they should not be graduating from high school, let alone an institute of higher learning.[/QUOTE] most people in my area get placed in math 053, which is literally elementary algebra. it's not the fault of their own, but their teachers and school system failing them. By refusing to have algebra at a community of higher learning, you take out the link between rich and poor. anyone in california can go to community college and get their AA degree. A lot of people who do so as well are gangsters who don't want a life of crime anymore, or other people who weren't able to pay attention in class because of familial issues. Offering a chance to make that math up can sometimes offer people a literal new life.

IDK why everyone is afraid of algebra. I found it amazing that you could convert whole paragraphs of a word problem into a simple solution with only a few numbers letters and symbols.

[QUOTE=SuperDuperScoot;52498046]Dude, are you me? You just described every single issue I have with math. Though I'm not sure if you also struggle with even [I]basic[/I] mathematics, because I do, and holy shit it makes me feel like I must be the dumbest fucking organic being on the planet because I still have to do basic addition and subtraction on my fingers slowly and meticulously, and I can lose track very easily. Larger numbers I have to use a calculator for, and also for most multiplication that isn't in basic tens or something super memorable. Being so dangerously inept with numbers is not something I wish on anyone. It's horrible.[/QUOTE] Not everyone can do mental math quickly and easily. Having a tangible object to do basic maths on, such as your fingers or even a calculator is extremely useful. There is no shame in using physical objects to count and abstractions can only take some people so far. also everyone uses calculators for everything these days anyways. they allow us to focus on the big picture.

I think the biggest reason why math is so hard for people is that it's really easy to forget if you don't do it often, yet the higher levels always build on top of the earlier ones. If you only use it on a year-by-year basis, it's really easy to lose track, which is why they always need to have recap classes for the first couple weeks. Personally, I think math would be easier to learn out of genuine necessity but I have no idea on how to achieve this in a school or college environment other than forcing the class to build things or to program something.

I'm honestly dreading taking college algebra as it will probably fuck up my good grades I've been getting. It should absolutely be a thing in highschool though. I mean you can pass most math classes with like 68% so it's not that big of a deal.

[QUOTE=SuperDuperScoot;52498046]Dude, are you me? You just described every single issue I have with math. Though I'm not sure if you also struggle with even [I]basic[/I] mathematics, because I do, and holy shit it makes me feel like I must be the dumbest fucking organic being on the planet because I still have to do basic addition and subtraction on my fingers slowly and meticulously, and I can lose track very easily. Larger numbers I have to use a calculator for, and also for most multiplication that isn't in basic tens or something super memorable. Being so dangerously inept with numbers is not something I wish on anyone. It's horrible.[/QUOTE] I pretty much stayed up and crammed for days before a math test because of this. The instant I would look away and stop doing it I would start to forget how to do anything in math.

Algebra, while unnecessary in some fields, at first and foremost, [b]work of your logic, which is ESSENTIAL[/b] in absolutely everything you ever do. Trigonometry and calculus should go if you don't want to be an engineer, but algebra is the essential - you learn to be logical through algebra.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;52497004]For me, math in school has always been the worst. And I'm not convinced I hate math itself, because I use it all the time with programming in private. The difference is the excessive and arbitrary need to memorize. In one semester of college-level trigonometry, I recall having to memorize the cross product, the dot product, other functions pertaining to vectors, the unit circle, the names of shapes of polar graphs, formulas for converting from rectangular coordinates to polar coordinates and back... why? Personally, I think a mind on mathematics is understanding how to use these functions, why these functions work, and what to expect from them. Instead, much of math all throughout high-school and towards the beginning of college was memorizing formulas. This is in contrast to programming, which I find to be incredibly similar. For programming, I generally have references open and build up my knowledge of what I can do and why it works as opposed to maintaining a hellish focus on specific ordering of parameters. I know I can replace a string in JavaScript and I know what it's doing internally, and I don't see harm in checking out the [url=https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/replace]API[/url] if I don't remember. Often times, memorization ends up happening as a result of routine, which makes me feel like memorization isn't important. So, when it comes to math, why do I need to memorize the formula for a parabola? If I know how to use it, I know the relationships between the variables, and I know the necessary variables, why is it important for me to know y = (x - h)^2 + k and why is it a mortal error to ever refer to a textbook or notes during a test? If the fear is that people can just going without knowing anything that has to do with math, I guarantee that someone who hasn't worked with complex formulas enough to even approach some of the complicated calculus questions I've come across will run out of time before achieving an acceptable score. It just doesn't happen. Calculus is where math has been far more focused on why formulas work as opposed to simply plugging stuff in, and that's what math should be like from the very beginning, or at least the start of high school![/QUOTE] This sounds pretty crazy to me because in Denmark you're allowed to use all your text books and notes during exams.

The public education never did a single thing to lessen my math anxiety, I was pretty much blank the entire time whenever the teacher would be standing up at the board explaining what seemed to me like a puzzle at the time. It had even felt I was being shamed or ridiculed when it should've been obvious that I was struggling retaining knowledge from their ways of teaching (It even felt like they were condescending to me at times) Math anxiety is a terrible, terrible thing; and not once did my teachers ever really try to dissolve or help with the issue. It wasn't until I was introduced into using Khan academy (From a GED course, coincidentially enough) that I finally had been given the comfort to just sit down, listen, and work out problems that were explained to me in super indepth detail, like it had finally clicked with me what the hell everything meant. I think it was the social situations that kept me from really focusing on bettering in a subject I was already struggling really hard with, I wouldn't wish math anxiety on anyone because of the way it can affect day to day life.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52498839]Algebra, while unnecessary in some fields, at first and foremost, [b]work of your logic, which is ESSENTIAL[/b] in absolutely everything you ever do. Trigonometry and calculus should go if you don't want to be an engineer, but algebra is the essential - you learn to be logical through algebra.[/QUOTE] You can also learn to be logical in a much more applicable fashion through English/Rhetoric classes that have you write argumentative papers. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;52498487]I'm honestly dreading taking college algebra as it will probably fuck up my good grades I've been getting. It should absolutely be a thing in highschool though. I mean you can pass most math classes with like 68% so it's not that big of a deal.[/QUOTE] If you're really nervous about it you should try running through the khan acadamy algebra 2 course beforehand, it's designed for high school algebra but most of what you'll do will be there, so you'll be able to get a lot of it out of the way at whatever pace you desire. Rather than having to panic because a test you're completely unprepared for is the next day or something.

I think it's important to have hurdles in the higher educations. If someone doesn't have the patience and self-discipline to understand and use complex methods like linear algebra, then I don't believe they should be allowed to graduate. It's not that algebra necessarily will be important later on, it's more your ability to learn in the first place, which will end up being vital further on. Use your time well and find methods of learning that make most sense to you. [QUOTE=CruelAddict;52498839]Trigonometry and calculus should go if you don't want to be an engineer, but algebra is the essential - you learn to be logical through algebra.[/QUOTE] Trigonometry and calculus are both important basics if you want to learn algebra, though. It's also easier and typically more applicable, which help prepare you for the more taxing tasks.

When people say they don't use maths or algebra at all, I honestly think that it's more likely that an inability to do it means that they either rely on others to do it or avoid the problems which require it, rather than it not actually being useful. As someone doing an engineering degree, I use maths day to day not only in my work/education but also in routine tasks, be it having a constant approximation of how much money I have in each place (i.e. cash, debts, bank accounts) or being able to calculate how much space I have when reorganising my rooms and therefore where things will fit. Obviously maths is harder for some than others (I've done maths tutoring for people who struggled), but the prevailing public attitude towards maths, i.e. that it is too hard, pointless and a waste of time means that people do significantly worse than they otherwise would do. Additionally, teaching focused around memorisation and passing tests, as well as some students looking only to pass test and then forget it, really hurt. [QUOTE=jordguitar;52497496]I can confirm this. Had to push aside a class so I can do a algebra class when I am going for a degree in IT Support. When in the hell am I going to use algebra in that field? When I am talking to some idiot on the phone how to turn a computer on and off again? I now have to wait a entire year to take this other class because of it. I have not needed to use 95% of the algebra that I have learned outside of a math class. I don't expect that number to decrease either. My time is better spent on learning actual skills. Yes I am ranting. Yes I know math is good and stuff. I don't need a lecture. It is just completely useless for me to spend ~5 months sitting in a class where I am going to hardly, if ever, use those skills.[/QUOTE] Your job is literally to help people fix a rock which uses lightning to do maths; how is algebra irrelevant?

[url]https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf[/url] here's a relevant classic by the way while we're on this topic

Algebra is the simplest shit. If you can't understand it, you either shouldn't be in college or (much more likely) the way it's being taught is garbage. Getting rid of algebra is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. It's an incredibly simple -- yet vitally important -- thing to learn.

Like everyone else I agree that this is stupid. Of course, he brought race into it, which really gives me flashbacks of [URL="https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/13/nyregion/ny-regents-teacher-exams-alst.html"]this[/URL]. With developments like this, in the future both students and teachers will be idiots.

[QUOTE=ZombieWaffle;52498372]Not everyone can do mental math quickly and easily. Having a tangible object to do basic maths on, such as your fingers or even a calculator is extremely useful. There is no shame in using physical objects to count and abstractions can only take some people so far. also everyone uses calculators for everything these days anyways. they allow us to focus on the big picture.[/QUOTE] Oddly my college algebra teacher was saying we can use our calculators and have no idea why high schools push this no calculator bullshit. She said all the other professors would say the same and their students use them as well. There's only so much thinking you can do in your head and having something to work with makes it faster if not easier. [editline]23rd July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Hans-Gunther 3.;52498403]I think the biggest reason why math is so hard for people is that it's really easy to forget if you don't do it often, yet the higher levels always build on top of the earlier ones. If you only use it on a year-by-year basis, it's really easy to lose track, which is why they always need to have recap classes for the first couple weeks. Personally, I think math would be easier to learn out of genuine necessity but I have no idea on how to achieve this in a school or college environment other than forcing the class to build things or to program something.[/QUOTE] Exactly my issue, I use it so little that I need to constantly review it. Before my last semester I reviewed all the material from my last class and did well the first half. Then we hit new material and my grades nearly tanked. If I want to succeed in precalc I'll have to do the same again.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52496875]Kind of putting the cart in front of the horse, Algebra is only really a struggle because our education is unfunded and crap ESPECIALLY in poorer areas where racial minorities are economically huddled into.[/QUOTE] I don't think that's the only reason though. We know that effective education depends on funding and is economic in nature, but it's also a matter of how it's actually structured. I honestly think that the United States' education system just does a shit job of teaching mathematics (teaching in general, for that matter), based off of personal experience and what I've learned from talking with the older generations who seemed to have had it taught to them more thoroughly than it was to us. I think most of this started after Bush's tough talk about rebuilding education in this country and the passage of No Child Left Behind. NCLB, even though its been repealed, has left a sour legacy which we're not going to recover from anytime soon. After it went into effect, schools started shifting away from teaching for the sake of learning to teaching for the sake of getting students to pass a battery of standardized tests that would determine school funding (which was an absolutely retarded idea). Mathematics and science suffered a lot from this. Again, we went from teaching material to students in a way that was fun, that encouraged them to want to learn, and moreover made it applicable to them on a regular basis (which is key; if you don't use what you learn, you lose it as time passes) to teaching it in a way that made it boring, anxiety-inducing, and not very applicable. I can't speak for everybody, but personally, standardized testing made me hate school. I could pass the tests and do the work, but I dreaded having to go because of the amount of pointless shit we had to do. I didn't feel like I was learning anything, and that's probably because I really wasn't. I learned more on my own free time by going to the library with my mom, reading books I had at home, watching documentaries, talking to my mom and stepfather (both of whom were educated), etc. than I did at school. I also had a few supportive teachers who were good enough to help supplement my interests and what I was good at. But overall, we were taught to take tests more than we were taught to properly learn the material like we should've been, and we've suffered for it ever since. You also had a decline in standards with colleges because they were trying to get more students to enroll so they could make more money. That happened a while ago, maybe from the 1970s to the 1980s (I'm not really sure if it's possible to pin down an exact date). That's part of the problem with running higher education as a gigantic business: it stopped being about producing quality graduates and became mostly about making money. It used to be that if you got accepted to a college, it meant that you were really intelligent and fit for it, the child of a really well-known (probably moneyed) family, or you were a combination of both. There was a time when most people just didn't go to college because the fact is they weren't cut out for it; they graduated high school, and that was enough. And for that matter, they got a good education just from elementary school, junior high, and high school. It used to be much more thorough. I don't know how to summarize and argue about all of this. We're dealing with such a complicated and expansive issue that it's impossible to be brief about, and it's also hard to pinpoint the numerous issues that there are just because there are so many. There's times where I honestly think we'd be better off tearing down what we've got and starting over from scratch. I'd like to see more of an emphasis here in the United States on [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education]Montessori education[/url], but I know it's just not going to happen. [editline]24 July 2017[/editline] Something else I've noticed with the overall decline in standards in our education system too is the rise of superficiality that's occurred as a result. Where our education system fails to teach properly and our students fail to learn because of it, there's mass compensation with bogus titles and credentials, undeserved certificates, overemphasized statistics, etc.-- by schools themselves as much as by students. [url=http://www.ets.org/s/research/30079/overview.html]The ETS has noted this before[/url]. Our generation is supposedly one of the most educated ever produced, yet it's also one of the most lacking and useless in terms of problem solving skills, literacy, and numeracy. There's clearly a problem with the system when this is the case. And the worst part about all this is that it affects our society as a whole. We can't have a functional democracy and good government if we've got a shit education system. It's scary to think that we've got people voting and making political decisions that affect us on local and national levels who couldn't even do something as basic as pass a citizenship test if they were given one, who don't have a competent grasp over our history, who know nothing about economics or current international affairs, etc.