Teacher suspended for referring to a transgender pupil as a girl rather than a boy in class - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Mobon1;52888313]Whether he was or wasn't doing so intentionally isn't the issue. It's him failing to act appropriately in spite of his beliefs and upbringing, which is guaranteed to have had an impact on what he said. Maybe he was genuinely attempting to give praise and had no bad intentions, but he fell flat on the more important part of it. [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] I am unsure how inclined I would be to learn from someone who believes how I identify myself is wrong.[/QUOTE] the consequence of which is that he might end up without a job, and income. seems a bit disproportionate. why does the good someone intends consistently get measured by the bad that's assumed?

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888329]why does the good someone intends consistently get measured by the bad that's assumed?[/QUOTE] Interpretation wins over intention, apparently.

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888329]the consequence of which is that he might end up without a job, and income. seems a bit disproportionate. why does the good someone intends consistently get measured by the bad that's assumed?[/QUOTE] You say this as though whatever decision made is made without any investigation at all.

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888329]the consequence of which is that he might end up without a job, and income. seems a bit disproportionate. why does the good someone intends consistently get measured by the bad that's assumed?[/QUOTE] He [i]may[/i], but is not fired yet. Should that happen, sure, that is a bit much. If he's fired because of only a few tiny mistakes that he has genuine remorse for and showed signs of improving upon, then yeah, that's fucked. But if he is fired, I feel as though it'd be safe to say there's more going on than the article lets on. As for the intentions remark: let's say hypothetical office hotshot Bill intends to give his coworker a compliment about her wardrobe choices for the day, but in reality says something completely creepy that in his mind was A OK. Like "That skirt you're wearing today is so hot! Your ass looks great!" He may have intended the best, but it's obvious that saying something like that is totally out of line. Are these situations that comparable? Probably not, but my poorly constructed point is that the world has always largely worked by taking what people say at face value, regardless of their intentions. We can't just pretend that it's gotten to an extreme when talking about things we don't want to have to deal with or think about. I guess I should say I agree that it looks crazy and ludicrous to have to worry about every little thing you say, especially when it comes to something as [i]seemingly[/i] inconsequential as this. The reality, however, is that it's really not every little thing you say, nor is it inconsequential, and with that in mind, it's not difficult to avoid this situation in the first place. After making a mistake, the teacher continually messed up, and there's not much of an excuse for it.

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888293]I think half my customers are full of shit too, but that doesn't mean i don't know how to exercise self-restraint and tolerance when it comes to shit I don't like. You can be outspoken about your belief but still conduct yourself in a socially acceptable manner. and if my 10 years of private school has taught me anything, its that Christians are very open about their beliefs, whether you like it or not. He's apologized for what he's done, but he still finds it morally against his beliefs. From what he's stated, he's made a genuine effort to accommodate his student despite his upbringing and religion. but he's a Math Teacher, not a Lawyer. Not only that, he was giving out praise for working hard when he made the mistake. what kind of mental gymnastics would you have to go through to both praise someone for their hard work, as well as attempt to belittle someone because of your religious beliefs?[/QUOTE] This whole response is garbled and self-contradictory. On one hand, you say that you have the ability to exercise self restraint and tolerance, and then you immediately turn around and say that Christians are open about their beliefs, "whether you like it or not." So which should be expected of the Christian teacher? Self-restraint and tolerance, or open disdain? You can't have it both ways, but that's exactly what this teacher has attempted by expressing his disapproval of trans identities. You can either offer an apology and mean it, or you can disagree with the premise of someone's grievance. [B]You can't do both.[/B] Nobody has asked this man to change his core values. But while speaking as Mr. Sutcliffe, the math teacher, as opposed to Pastor Joshua, he had a professional responsibility to keep his personal beliefs confidential. He chose instead to openly deny the validity of trans identities based on his religious beliefs. That alone proves that his previous behavior, wherein he called his student by the proper terms, wasn't a "genuine effort," as you say. It was a cynical attempt to [I]play along[/I], and keep himself out of professional trouble. Again, that [I]alone[/I] isn't enough to be a problem. If he was cynical about transgender identities and kept it to himself, then his students and the school could continue to assume he's acting in good faith, chalk this up to an accident and move on. The problem is that now all his students know how he [I]really[/I] feels. Trans and possibly other queer students can't trust him anymore, and that puts the school in nasty legal territory. If that teacher returns to work like nothing happened, then it sends the message to the other students that it's okay to deny recognition of their trans peers' identities on religious grounds if you hide it behind a thin veneer of fake tolerance. And one last thing. It's not mental gymnastics for the teacher to give praise and belittle at the same time if you consider the oft-cited "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument that so many shitty adults have used to mistreat gay kids. They think that by rejecting the latter's identity, either discreetly or overtly, that they're actually helping. And it's fucked up.

[quote] but said he did not consider it "unreasonable" to call someone a girl "if they were born a girl[/quote] the issue isn't the minor slip-up but the fact he openly forces his beliefs like this to children.

Given his recorded and verified statements its not an unfair assumption to say his beliefs motivated his actions. If the claims of multiple incidents are verified then I'd say his suspension is entirely justified. Teachers exist to teach, and a teacher that antagonizes their students is a bad teacher, regardless of the validity or invalidity of their personal beliefs.

Slip ups happen. My partner is trans and I've misgendered them a few times each year. However, the teacher here has a duty of care to ensure a safe and welcoming environment for his pupils. Even if his misgendering was purely accidental, I'm of the opinion that sanction for the same is warranted - trans kids are especially sensitive (kids in general are) and the teacher/school have a duty to protect them. Even if these were slip ups, this is the school signaling: do better. It shows the kid that they care about him, and the teacher that he needs to make an active effort not to make that mistake (going beyond his decision to just not use pronouns at all, but to use his correct pronouns on a consistent basis, which has the added benefit of making it a habit, making slip ups less likely to occur). It's the right move. It's not like teachers [I]can't [/I] be suspended for making mistakes. Intentional misconduct is not a prerequisite for sanction.

I think I saw this guy on TV yesterday. Was repeatedly misgendering the poor kid while being corrected by the presenters literally seconds before. He actually is just transphobic [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] Like I can understand a mistake from time to time but if you're on live television and have just been corrected [I]five seconds ago[/I] and you're still refusing to be a decent person then I don't think it's a slip-up

[QUOTE=gtanoofa;52888677]Oh damn. Is there a video of this?[/QUOTE] I don't know if this is the specific one Shibbey saw, but: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9_b49s-xVg[/media]

I'm of two minds about this. I kinda wished we lived in a world where it was unspoken that you respect the gender of transgender children. Until we live in that world, I kind of feel like we could benefit from being a lot more tolerable to people like him. While he may be actively trying to use his religion as an excuse to inadverntly make a child uncomfortable, he also makes concessions. Some people may disagree with me but I think the decision to refer to the child by their name primarily is kind of a fair one. No one gets misgendered and no one has to use a pronoun that (God forbid) may cause themselves discomfort. That being said, this line of thinking would apply really well to someone of a much older generation. The age of this teacher, and the repeated misgenderings, leads me to believe he's probably being a lot more intentionally inflammatory than he's letting on.

[QUOTE=Paramud;52888703]I don't know if this is the specific one Shibbey saw, but: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9_b49s-xVg[/media][/QUOTE] this makes the situation pretty unambiguous. Misgenders the student, is corrected, and responds with "It's my personal conviction." If he is referring to the student as a girl when speaking with others, and the student is aware of that, that is a problem. That is only [I]marginally[/I] better than directly intentionally misgendering the student to their face when addressing them. Ask any trans person - one of the most difficult things when it comes to family, for instance, is when they continue to use the wrong pronouns when not in your presence. Those pronouns continue to shape their perspective of your gender, and the [B]concept of being trans[/B] is to be seen as the gender assigned to the opposite sex, to reinforce your identity as that gender. If the teacher is actively pursuing an "ideology" (I chuckle at his disdainful reference to trans being an ideology) that the student cannot be trans as a matter of fact and continually refers to him as a girl, he is directly creating a hostile environment for that student, because it demonstrates that he, as an authority figure, doesn't respect the student's identity. As a teacher he has an affirmative duty to create an inclusive environment. Anyone who has worked in education knows this. [B]Tudd or a moderator should put this in the OP, undoubtedly[/B]. This video is crucial context.

The news article seems pretty weighted in favour of the teacher. An accidental slip up is one thing, but by the sound of it, this teacher has repeatedly and intentionally misgendered this kid. And if that's the case, then I feel like the punishment is justified, because at that point it is straight-up harrassment. I know quite a few trans and genderdiverse folk, not least of which being my boyfriend. So to put a bit of background on this subject; for many trans people, their "dead" self is a source of a lot of bad shit, ranging anywhere from simple dissatisfaction to full on trauma. For a lot of people, especially young folks, transitioning can be a hugely theraputic thing. Its sometimes like getting "reborn" - as cheesy as that might sound. Its a chance to let go of all the shite someone has dealt with in their past with a whole new identity and sense of self. Not always, obviously, but often enough to be worth noting. Sadly, however, a lot of people - especially people with "traditional" views - will go out of their way to invalidate all of that. It's usually not even malicious intent, just people refusing to accept that not everybody shares their outlook. And for a trans person, especially a [I]kid[/I] of all people, being constantly invalidated, deadnamed an/or misgendered by somebody with authority over them can be hugely traumatic and lead to all sorts of unpleasant shit down the line. And by the sound of it, this isn't a case of some oversensitive dramababy kicking up an entitled stink over one slip up, I doubt it would have resulted in a suspesion - let alone a news story - were that the case. It specifically mentions that this has been a constant problem. And even if the teacher in question really was that forgetful and absent-minded, if that's the case then they probably shouldn't be responsible for looking after children. Edit: just saw the video above my post - this guy deserves the punishment, no doubt.

[QUOTE=Paramud;52888703]I don't know if this is the specific one Shibbey saw, but: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9_b49s-xVg[/media][/QUOTE] This is really painful to watch, and if this guy hasn't been sacked already he definitely will be now, he's straight up saying he won't respect the student's pronouns even when school policy demands him to.

The teacher sounds like a proper twat and deserved to be suspended. This was clearly a repeated offense that they knew about but refused to correct fully.

[QUOTE=Omilinon;52887881]I mean, if he kept antagonizing her by calling him as a "she", it's definitely not out-of-line to suspend the teacher? The articles say it was a slip of the tongue, but also go on to say that he's done it multiple times before, and he argues that the concept of transgenderism conflicts with his beliefs (which is fine, but this is a school; his religious beliefs should be set aside for the betterment of the children).[/QUOTE] Lets not ignore basic biology here. Be it values of his religion or not, but in this case he's right.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888790]Lets not ignore basic biology here. Be it values of his religion or not, but in this case he's right.[/QUOTE] yeah he's a right cunt

[QUOTE=Luafox;52888822]are you trying to troll here? because its not really funny to see this after the millionth time[/QUOTE] Well you can pretend people to be what ever gender they decide this week. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling/Threadshitting" - Novangel))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Luafox;52888844]oh okay so you're just childish, got it. hope you decide not to be a rude ass in the future[/QUOTE] I'm all for private schools enforcing whatever rules they want onto their staff. But going as far as punishing students for this is ridiculous.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888790]Lets not ignore basic biology here. Be it values of his religion or not, but in this case he's right.[/QUOTE] Comments like yours are always my favorite. They always start off with some shitty appeal to "biology", but then immediately prove they're nothing more than bigoted pseudo-intellectual drivel. If you actually care about science [sp]we both know you don't[/sp], then you should take the time to study not just human development in general, but specifically things like how transgendered people have brain structures and hormone levels more closely matching their identified gender.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888790]Lets not ignore basic biology here. Be it values of his religion or not, but in this case he's right.[/QUOTE] gender isn't equivalent to sex, it's a set of social expectations thrust upon males & females. You as an individual identify with one of (or neither/both of) those sets of social expectations and want to express them. Societies tend to rigidly enforce those bounds of gendered social expectations and link them to a person's sex. When someone looks at and identifies with a specific set of social expectations that doesn't match their biological sex, it induces mental anguish. This isn't something you can control because it's developed over time subconsciously. Since altering your mental identity is damn near impossible (and dangerous to attempt at worst), physicians have determined that the more effective route is to physically alter the person's aesthetic characteristics so that their body appears congruent with the gender identity in their mind. This reduces the anguish experienced as a result of the gender dysphoria induced by the biological and social disconnect.

[QUOTE=Fouytan222;52888884]Comments like yours are always my favorite. They always start off with some shitty appeal to "biology", but then immediately prove they're nothing more than bigoted pseudo-intellectual drivel. If you actually care about science [sp]we both know you don't[/sp], then you should take the time to study not just human development in general, but specifically things like how transgendered people have brain structures and hormone levels more closely matching their identified gender.[/QUOTE] If you want to wear a skirt as a male I don't care. All I'm against is people telling me what words I can't use, and potential legislation (in some countries already real) that would punish people for speaking & thinking the wrong way.

[QUOTE=Fouytan222;52888884]If you actually care about science [sp]we both know you don't[/sp], then you should take the time to study not just human development in general, but specifically things like how transgendered people have brain structures and hormone levels more closely matching their identified gender.[/QUOTE] as a followup to this post, the foundational text in this area (not with specific respect to gender, but to the interplay of biological and social/environmental impacts on brain chemistry and physiology), see [url=http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4316113.aspx]The Transactional Model of Development[/url]; effectively demonstrating that our minds are shaped not only by inherent physical predispositions (such as sex/genetics) but also by the environments in which we live. Identifying with the gender assigned to the opposite sex, in turn, causes specific regions of the brain to develop leading to your brain to more closely resemble that of the opposite sex, which in turn, reinforces your gender identity.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888911]If you want to wear a skirt as a male I don't care. All I'm against is people telling me what words I can't use, and potential legislation (in some countries already real) that would punish people for speaking & thinking the wrong way.[/QUOTE] Please stop telling me i cant call you a jerk when youre being a jerk tia It is my right to call you a jerk when you are a jerk because it is my first amendment right to use whatever words i want to describe you with (which is a jerk)

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888911]If you want to wear a skirt as a male I don't care. All I'm against is people telling me what words I can't use, and potential legislation (in some countries already real) that would punish people for speaking & thinking the wrong way.[/QUOTE] How would you like it if someone constantly called you the wrong gender? That is bullying.

How convenient tho that the part where he targetted this particular student multiple times is left out almost as if that wouldnt serve the narrative [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] Its almost as interesting as people saying objectivity is the best without doing further research and taking the headline at face value It's almost as if people don't actually care about objectivity when it comes to issues like this and take incomplete information at face value whenever convenient But i dunno, it's just speculation

[QUOTE=Mud;52888967]How convenient tho that the part where he targetted this particular student multiple times is left out almost as if that wouldnt serve the narrative [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] Its almost as interesting as people saying objectivity is the best without doing further research and taking the headline at face value It's almost as if people don't actually care about objectivity when it comes to issues like this and take incomplete information at face value whenever convenient But i dunno, it's just speculation[/QUOTE] It's almost like the article is trying to push some "Trans people are bad" agenda. But why would someone want to do that?

[QUOTE=Mud;52888967]How convenient tho that the part where he targetted this particular student multiple times is left out almost as if that wouldnt serve the narrative [/QUOTE] [quote]Mr Sutcliffe had also called him by a female pronoun on several other occasions, according the Mail on Sunday.[/quote] ?????? Also I added the video to the OP.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;52888994]It's almost like the article is trying to push some "Trans people are bad" agenda. But why would someone want to do that?[/QUOTE] What? No! Preposterous! People who have a clear stake in these issues driven by a misguided understanding of the first amendment would never ever try to demonize a group of people that was previously consequence free to attack! [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Tudd;52888998]?????? Also I added the video to the OP.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Teacher suspended for referring to a transgender pupil as a girl rather than a boy in class[/QUOTE] 🤔

[QUOTE=Mud;52889000]What? No! Preposterous! People who have a clear stake in these issues driven by a misguided understanding of the first amendment would never ever try to demonize a group of people that was previously consequence free to attack! 樂[/QUOTE] You could openly explain your point if you actually have something to say.