Teacher suspended for referring to a transgender pupil as a girl rather than a boy in class - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE=Tudd;52889022]You could openly explain your reasoning if you actually have something to say.[/QUOTE] I have nothing to say just thought the headline could use a change to more accurately reflect the actual events We all need up to date and accurate information after all

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888911]If you want to wear a skirt as a male I don't care. All I'm against is people telling me what words I can't use, and potential legislation (in some countries already real) that would punish people for speaking & thinking the wrong way.[/QUOTE] I don't necessarily disagree with the surface level notion of this post, but considering your previous comments in this thread, I feel all you're really saying is your want to be able to antagonize trans individuals and not have to face any sort of repercussions. Especially since the first line of this post is, once again, heavily implying that you don't consider transgenderism to be acceptable based on your only very basic knowledge of human development.

Maybe he should look to one of his churches for [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1585551"]guidance[/URL]. Look its stupid that there was no formal dialog to him about the student and if this was the first serious instance then he shouldn't be getting suspended but based on this interview he clearly still refuses to respect the student and his request to be referred to as a he. Teachers are supposed to go out their way to accommodate students, to make them feel welcome and safe, not project or hide behind their beliefs. I don't care if the teacher doesn't truly believe he's trans or can be a "real" boy but be the bigger person and help him feel comfortable in school, your the responsible adult and are responsible for these students and their well being

[QUOTE=Mud;52889027]I have nothing to say just thought the headline could use a change to more accurately reflect the actual events We all need up to date and accurate information after all[/QUOTE] Considering most articles I have found used a title similar to this (BBC even), and the OP includes all the information one might need, I think it does a more than adequate job. [quote=MissingGlitch]It's almost like the article is trying to push some "Trans people are bad" agenda. But why would someone want to do that?[/quote] Why do you say that? What specifically makes the article seem like it is transphobic?

[QUOTE=Tudd;52889049]Considering most articles I have found used a title similar to this (BBC even), and the OP includes all the information one might need, I think it does a more than adequate job.[/QUOTE] Don't you agree being more accurate is better though? I thought we were all about objectivity in our headlines. The BBC does an adequate job but I feel we can do a better job by giving people the facts at a quick glance. Lest they misinterpret what the actual events were. Surely you agree to that.

[QUOTE=Mud;52889057]Don't you agree being more accurate is better though? I thought we were all about objectivity in our headlines. The BBC does an adequate job but I feel we can do a better job by giving people the facts at a quick glance. Lest they misinterpret what the actual events were. Surely you agree to that.[/QUOTE] If you think the BBC did an adequate job then why are you complaining? A title is not the full article (nor do we have unlimited space on FP); So it needs to be as accurate and as simple as possible. People can read the OP just fine and it has all the possible information they could want to paint the full picture.

[QUOTE=Tudd;52889083]If you think the BBC did an adequate job then why are you complaining? A title is not the full article; So it needs to be as accurate and as simple as possible.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying the bbc is not doing an accurate job, I'm saying you aren't even though you can because you are not the bbc. But you see, the title is not accurate. It can be more accurate say "teacher suspended for constantly harassing transgender student", "teacher suspended for misgendering trans student on purpose multiple times", "teacher suspended for disrespecting trans student" All of these can give a better idea of whats going on and you know they do. You are not the bbc and this is not editorializing a headline: this is presenting what the facts are in a concise way. You may say this is irrelevant to the discussion but it very much is relevant: a productive discussion cannot occur when the facts are presented in a misleading manner. This isn't about the bbc at all.

[QUOTE=Fouytan222;52889033]I don't necessarily disagree with the surface level notion of this post, but considering your previous comments in this thread, I feel all you're really saying is your want to be able to antagonize trans individuals and not have to face any sort of repercussions. Especially since the first line of this post is, once again, heavily implying that you don't consider transgenderism to be acceptable based on your only very basic knowledge of human development.[/QUOTE] Correct, I would prefer not to get fined for misgendering someone.

[QUOTE=Mud;52889103]I'm not saying the bbc is not doing an accurate job, I'm saying you aren't even though you can because you are not the bbc. But you see, the title is not accurate. It can be more accurate say "teacher suspended for constantly harassing transgender student", "teacher suspended for misgendering trans student on purpose multiple times", "teacher suspended for disrespecting trans student" All of these can give a better idea of whats going on and you know they do. You are not the bbc and this is not editorializing a headline: this is presenting what the facts are in a concise way. You may say this is irrelevant to the discussion but it very much is relevant: a productive discussion cannot occur when the facts are presented in a misleading manner. This isn't about the bbc at all.[/QUOTE] The title presents the case as neutral as possible and the article gives people the facts they need to determine a side. If your issue is they didn't include an adverb of multiple/constantly then be happy to know that the OP and a video makes that quite clear. [quote]"teacher suspended for disrespecting trans student"[/quote] How is this not just the same as the Evening Standard and BBC title but slightly reworded? Did you even think about this when listed it as an example of a more accurate title to you?

[QUOTE=nVidia;52889114]Correct, I would prefer not to get fined for misgendering someone.[/QUOTE] You seriously don't see anything wrong with intentionally and repeatedly disrespecting the gender identity of a child - as their teacher? In a position of authority? You really see nothing wrong with that?

[QUOTE=Tudd;52889123]The title presents the case as neutral as possible and the article gives people the facts they need to determine a side. If your issue is they didn't include an adverb of multiple/constantly then be happy to know that the OP and a video makes that quite clear. How is this not just the same as the Evening Standard and BBC title but slightly reworded?[/QUOTE] Theres a few more ways you can word it, you can add constantly to that to paint a better picture. Please do not be naive, we both know to someone going in the headline paints it as one discression instead of multiple and the initial reactions prove it. I don't understand why you are so opposed to making the headline slightly more accurate. Or admitting the possibility that it could be used to mislead. "The bbc did it" is not a very convincing excuse, neither is "the op explains more!" When we have already seen in the first few posts not many people read the op

[QUOTE=Mud;52889133]Theres a few more ways you can word it, you can add constantly to that to paint a better picture. Please do not be naive, we both know to someone going in the headline paints it as one discression instead of multiple and the initial reactiond prove it. I don't understand why you are so opposed to making the headline slightly more accurate. Or admitting the possibility that it could be used to mislead.[/QUOTE] Well I also can't change the title would be a good start. That is a moderator thing at the moment. But I was curious why you were complaining so much and it turns out were actually arguing over a really minuscule issue. Personally I think the title is accurate as is and there is an amount of judgement one could make if this guy finally got in trouble with a slip up of "Well done Girls" moment rather then it always being intentional.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52889114]Correct, I would prefer not to get fined for misgendering someone.[/QUOTE] While there's no doubt some overzealous left-wing politicians writing terrible laws in the world, I don't think anyone would be eager to prosecute a simple slip of the tongue, or even incorrectly assuming someones gender when first meeting them. The real question is, if you met a transgendered individual in your day to day life, would you repeatedly and intentionally go out of your way to misgender them? Especially if you were in a position of power or authority over them?

[QUOTE=Tudd;52889148]Well I also can't change the title would be a good start. That is a moderator thing at the moment.[/QUOTE] How does that make my criticism invalid of an active choice you made? [QUOTE=Tudd;52889148] But I was curious why you were complaining so much and it turns out were actually arguing over a really minuscule. Personally I think the title is accurate as is and there is an amount of judgement one could make if this guy finally got in trouble with a slip up of "Well done Girls" moment rather then it always being intentional.[/QUOTE] But as you can see, it is not accurate: facts are not subjective and presenting half truths in situations like this is not miniscule, no matter how minor. This is logic 101 here my friend.

[QUOTE=AtomicSans;52889126]You seriously don't see anything wrong with intentionally and repeatedly disrespecting the gender identity of a child - as their teacher? In a position of authority? You really see nothing wrong with that?[/QUOTE] So at which point is a child old enough to know which gender they want to be, does this eventually extend to kindergarten? This would get ridiculous very quickly.

[QUOTE=Fouytan222;52889165]While there's no doubt some overzealous left-wing politicians writing terrible laws in the world, I don't think anyone would be eager to prosecute a simple slip of the tongue, or even incorrectly assuming someones gender when first meeting them. The real question is, if you met a transgendered individual in your day to day life, would you repeatedly and intentionally go out of your way to misgender them? Especially if you were in a position of power or authority over them?[/QUOTE] Everyone is free to make up their own mind of such person, but does this really have to have legal precautions?

[QUOTE=Mud;52889166]How does that make my criticism invalid of an active choice you made?[/quote] Because your issue is more with the Evening Standard and other articles like the BBC then me now. I pretty much always post the title 1:1 from the article so I don't sensationalize. [quote] But as you can see, it is not accurate: facts are not subjective and presenting half truths in situations like this is not miniscule, no matter how minor. This is logic 101 here my friend.[/QUOTE] Look, if a moderator wants to change the title they can go ahead, but I think the issue is incredibly minor and the current title is perfectly fine as stepping stone into the article with all the facts.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52889168]So at which point is a child old enough to know which gender they want to be, does this eventually extend to extend to kindergarten? This would get ridiculous very quickly.[/QUOTE] You're shifting the goalposts. Anyway, it probably should extend to kindergarten. People can question their gender at any age and it's important and helpful for the atmosphere and environment to feel accepting for children questioning their gender. It can prevent a lot of emotional and mental pain and suffering later down the line. So in short, call people what they want to be called, especially when you're in a position of authority. Don't think that you can make decisions for someone better than they can. [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=nVidia;52889173]Everyone is free to make up their own mind of such person, but does this really have to have legal precautions?[/QUOTE] If legal precautions can be demonstrated to improve how teachers interact with trans students, then yes, legal precautions should be in place.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888911]If you want to wear a skirt as a male I don't care. All I'm against is people telling me what words I can't use, and potential legislation (in some countries already real) that would punish people for speaking & thinking the wrong way.[/QUOTE] Boy howdy have I got news for you. If this is a "free speech" thing, then I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't mean you get to say whatever you goddamn please without punishment. Free speech means you can't be sent to jail for saying a thing. But when it comes to an employment situation - especially one involving kids - saying the wrong thing can, will, and should get you penalized, up to and including getting fired for being a shit person. And make no mistake: Repeatedly refusing to respect somebody who has done nothing wrong is being a shit person.

[QUOTE=nVidia;52888832]Well you can pretend people to be what ever gender they decide this week.[/QUOTE] Out and out bigotry like this should not be accepted here This isn't even a matter of your opinion violating a ~safe space~ (because I know you're going to go for that card), you are just objectively wrong and hellbent on being an asshole to easy targets because you're that much of a sad pathetic person

[QUOTE=nVidia;52889173]Everyone is free to make up their own mind of such person, but does this really have to have legal precautions?[/QUOTE] I'll admit that I find your descriptor of "make up their own mind" very vague. The scale of the repercussions should of course be appropriate to the transgressions committed. If someone doesn't accept transgendered individuals as equal members of society, but keeps these thoughts to themselves or chooses to express them through non-violent free speech, then there should obviously be no legal repercussions, because no crime has been committed. However, if these views inspire someone to commit a crime, whether that be something as simple as harassment and bullying, something more serious like stalking or doxxing, or even something as heinous as sexual assault or murder, then of course there should be repercussions! Of course the laws regarding what is and what isn't free speech vary from nation to nation, but even the United States has harassment and discrimination laws. I'll admit that I am ignorant of the United Kingdom's laws, or how the secondary school system typically handles disciplinary actions of it teachers, but I can't imagine that it is some sort of Orwellian thought crime nightmare. The teacher in this case wasn't immediately fired on the spot for a slip of the tongue. He simply faces a temporary suspension for repeatedly misgendering one of his students. I imagine that it is totally within the realm of possibility for the teacher to correct his behavior and keep his job.

it seems like the guy was making a pattern of it

[QUOTE=nVidia;52889168]So at which point is a child old enough to know which gender they want to be, does this eventually extend to kindergarten? This would get ridiculous very quickly.[/QUOTE] I can't see how letting a young child experiment with presenting as the other gender is harmful. making people respect a child's gender expression should be trivial, and any medical procedures a child is allowed to be put through until they turn 16 are reversible. when somebody turns 16, they should have a good idea if they're trans or not.

The idea of someone getting critically offended by someone using an [i]incorrect[/i] pronoun to a point where you have to go complain to the authorities about it is still baffling to me. If they were the aforementioned gender at one point then what's the big deal? They've been correctly referred to as that gender before, haven't they?

[QUOTE=Killajax;52889962]The idea of someone getting critically offended by someone using an [i]incorrect[/i] pronoun to a point where you have to go complain to the authorities about it is still baffling to me. If they were the aforementioned gender at one point then what's the big deal? They've been correctly referred to as that gender before, haven't they?[/QUOTE] Because they were being targetted specifically? [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] Its not about being offended lmao its about being singled out jesus christ its like you have never actually been bullied before or making bullshit justifications for it if you have

To elaborate on the avove post, a large portion of us trans individuals learn to keep ourselves groomed without ever even peaking at a mirror, to put it mildly. Intentionally misgendering a transgender individual in order to antagonize them will almost invariably lead to severe emotional distress, especially from an authority figure they're forced to be in contact with every day. This is a rather cut and dry case, the school was completely in their rights to sack this dude. Hell even from a purely pragmatic standpoint the school made the right choice by sacking him as it avoids nasty press and a potential lawsuit

Regardless of his beliefs, that is absolutely ridiculous. I have, on countless occasions, accidentally referred to transgender friends as the wrong gender because I knew them before they came out as transgender as the opposite gender. My mind defaults to "he" or "she" because that's the pronoun that I used for quite some time after meeting the person. It's an automatic response and a difficult one to change. However, just as the teacher did, I always apologize and correct myself. He was respectable and did it by accident, something that is very common. It should have been left at that. [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] Also, completely unrelated to anything else I've just said, what exactly does Christianity have to say about gender fluidity? Does the Bible say anything about a man being a man and nothing else and the same for women? Does it mention anything [I]specific[/I] about people being unable to transition from one gender to another?

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;52890541]Regardless of his beliefs, that is absolutely ridiculous. I have, on countless occasions, accidentally referred to transgender friends as the wrong gender because I knew them before they came out as transgender as the opposite gender. My mind defaults to "he" or "she" because that's the pronoun that I used for quite some time after meeting the person. It's an automatic response and a difficult one to change. However, just as the teacher did, I always apologize and correct myself. He was respectable and did it by accident, something that is very common. It should have been left at that. [/QUOTE] Its currently believed that he was doing this purposefully to antagonize the student and that he had done it on numerous occassions. The title of the OP should be changed since its clearly misleading people.

[QUOTE=Amber902;52890601]Its currently believed that he was doing this purposefully to antagonize the student and that he had done it on numerous occassions. The title of the OP should be changed since its clearly misleading people.[/QUOTE] Ah, I must have missed that. It still doesn't seem like he's doing anything out of actual malice for the student, but still, that changes a lot. That said, though, I can see it still being mostly unintentional, even if it may have been construed as antagonistic. Like I said, I've done it multiple times and I harbor no ill belief towards anyone whose transgender and I completely support them, it's just a habit that needs breaking. In his case he holds beliefs that are against transgenderism, but could just as well still be doing it accidentally.

[QUOTE=mugofdoom;52890630]Ah, I must have missed that. It still doesn't seem like he's doing anything out of actual malice for the student, but still, that changes a lot. That said, though, I can see it still being mostly unintentional, even if it may have been construed as antagonistic. Like I said, I've done it multiple times and I harbor no ill belief towards anyone whose transgender and I completely support them, it's just a habit that needs breaking. In his case he holds beliefs that are against transgenderism, but could just as well still be doing it accidentally.[/QUOTE] It really isn't unintentional. In the interview he's corrected for calling the student "she," and he immediately responds with "well, of course, this is the issue isn't it? We don't know, really." He knows what he's doing, regardless of whether or not he's doing it with any malice.