It looks like cryptocurrency mining is driving up Nvidia graphics card prices too - Sensationalist Headlines

so just to recap: - etherium is still just as magical and ghostly as fiat currency - you're trusting some randoms you don't know to not fuck with it - for all the talk of "there's no interference" you go and hard fork because someone didn't think the implications through of having a contract that isn't arbitrable - oh and you screw over the primary intended market of graphics cards please blockchain fad, die sooner

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;52394907]so just to recap: - etherium is still just as magical and ghostly as fiat currency - you're trusting some randoms you don't know to not fuck with it - for all the talk of "there's no interference" you go and hard fork because someone didn't think the implications through of having a contract that isn't arbitrable - oh and you screw over the primary intended market of graphics cards please blockchain fad, die sooner[/QUOTE] I don't think it's going to disappear completely. It's a pretty straightforward way to gamble, and there's definitely plenty of people who love that. (I suppose that technically means there's some inherent value there after all :wink:) What I personally would like to see is more blockchains that are backed by secrets rather than energy requirements. There's one proposal in the works that would create internationally valid digital identities (I should read up on the specifics on that. Depending on the implementation it might be a data protection nightmare, but I hope the people making it aren't quite that insane yet.), which could be backed by states using their private certificates to sign it. The trust in that data could then be offline-verified as long as at least one trustworthy certificate authority remains, if I'm not mistaken, but there wouldn't be a need to burn through electricity all the time to keep the system secure. [editline]24th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=LordCrypto;52394907][...] - for all the talk of "there's no interference" you go and hard fork because someone didn't think the implications through of having a contract that isn't arbitrable [...][/QUOTE] Regarding this in particular: Wasn't there a court case? If I'm not completely mistaken, what they (the DAO members who support the hard fork) did amounts to breach of contract. It's going to be very interesting to see who will be deemed a guilty party though, if it results in that verdict.

[QUOTE=glitchvid;52394829]If I buy Eth right now, someone is making money from selling their Eth, but when I sell it for 10x that amount in a couple years, I'll be making a net profit vs my initial buyin. The person who buys it from me could do the same. Trading and selling does not have to have a winner and loser.[/QUOTE] You misunderstand a fundamental aspect of financial management. Those people who sold their currency now have an [i]opportunity cost[/i] which is equal to your net gain. They are the loser in this scenario. When you make these assumptions that everyone wins, you get trapped into a warped view of trading that makes everyone out to be a winner in a bull market, and everyone a loser in a bear market. That's obviously not true. The people who fail to invest in a bull market, and fail to pull out in a bear market, are losers. (More accurately, the people who fail to short sell in a bear market are losers.) I mean, feel free to rate me dumb, but calculating opportunity costs was a critical aspect of my job for 6 years. If you ignore the opportunity cost, you basically throw everything about market theory out the window.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52394840]That's not quite true. [/QUOTE] And that's also not quite true. You're thinking purely in only one "t" and neglecting the fact that the liquidity of cryptocurrencies is far from being instant. [QUOTE]Those people who sold their currency now have an opportunity cost which is equal to your net gain. They are the loser in this scenario. [/QUOTE] And by saying that they lost aren't you assuming that they their best choice was to keep the currency in their hands?

[QUOTE=Tamschi;52394944]I don't think it's going to disappear completely. It's a pretty straightforward way to gamble, and there's definitely plenty of people who love that. (I suppose that technically means there's some inherent value there after all :wink:) What I personally would like to see is more blockchains that are backed by secrets rather than energy requirements. There's one proposal in the works that would create internationally valid digital identities (I should read up on the specifics on that. Depending on the implementation it might be a data protection nightmare, but I hope the people making it aren't quite that insane yet.), which could be backed by states using their private certificates to sign it. The trust in that data could then be offline-verified as long as at least one trustworthy certificate authority remains, if I'm not mistaken, but there wouldn't be a need to burn through electricity all the time to keep the system secure. [editline]24th June 2017[/editline] Regarding this in particular: Wasn't there a court case? If I'm not completely mistaken, what they (the DAO members who support the hard fork) did amounts to breach of contract. It's going to be very interesting to see who will be deemed a guilty party though, if it results in that verdict.[/QUOTE] you mean the breach of contract that's not enforceable because it's a non-arbitrable agreement (no there wasn't a court case)

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;52395012]you mean the breach of contract that's not enforceable because it's a non-arbitrable agreement (no there wasn't a court case)[/QUOTE] A contract is enforceable by definition. Arbitration has nothing to do with it. What are you talking about?

[QUOTE=Snowmew;52395015]A contract is enforceable by definition. Arbitration has nothing to do with it. What are you talking about?[/QUOTE] he means arbitration by having someone decide something upon that. A judge.

[QUOTE=Snowmew;52395015]A contract is enforceable by definition. Arbitration has nothing to do with it. What are you talking about?[/QUOTE] on paper they're "contracts" but no judge would ever take your magical internet money contract seriously, and if you were to claim breach of contract for hard forking etherum you'd get laughed out of the courtroom

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;52395023]he means arbitration by having someone decide something upon that. A judge.[/QUOTE] Judges adjudicate, not arbitrate, but I get the idea. [QUOTE=LordCrypto;52395025]on paper they're "contracts" but no judge would ever take your magical internet money contract seriously, and if you were to claim breach of contract for hard forking etherum you'd get laughed out of the courtroom[/QUOTE] Oh, well yeah, I mentioned this a year ago in the "DAO is so great and amazing" thread. But hey, people are idiots.

[QUOTE=LordCrypto;52395012]you mean the breach of contract that's not enforceable because it's a non-arbitrable agreement (no there wasn't a court case)[/QUOTE] There's a legal agreement that 'imports' the digital DAO contract floating around somewhere. It's as legally binding as any other contract, and as such people can be sued over its (non)fulfilment ([editline]edit[/editline] [I]possibly[/I] minus its misleading content/circumstances, but a court would have to decide that). I remember the one who exploited the DAO announcing that he wanted to pursue his claims in court, but it's true I haven't heard about that again. I guess the main issue is regarding whether property was 'taken' or 'destroyed' through the fork. Technically it still exists in the Ethereum Classic branch, but I suspect the fork didn't help its value. Digital goods are seen as real valuable goods (or equivalent) in most cases now if I'm not mistaken, which is why the value of stolen WoW items for example was taken into account in at least one court case. [editline]edit[/editline] Personally, I think it would be helpful if at least some of the DAO promotion was ruled fraud. That would likely reduce the number of people going around promising the blue off the sky. I'm not a lawyer though, and haven't looked into this more than superficially, so while I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that happened, I really have no clue whether it can happen and/or is probable. [editline]24th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cutthecrap;52395011]And that's also not quite true. You're thinking purely in only one "t" and neglecting the fact that the liquidity of cryptocurrencies is far from being instant. And by saying that they lost aren't you assuming that they their best choice was to keep the currency in their hands?[/QUOTE] Snowmew explained it a bit more precisely [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1568569&p=52394985&viewfull=1#post52394985"]above your post[/URL]. In any case, my explanation doesn't depend on the speed or liquidity of cryptocurrencies [I]whatsoever[/I]. That's one of its downsides that potentially reduces its value though. [editline]edit[/editline] I don't get what you mean by 'only one "t"'. If it's repeat transactions: That too doesn't have anything to do with any of my earlier posts. I think you're confused about what I wrote.

[QUOTE=Snowmew;52394985]You misunderstand a fundamental aspect of financial management. Those people who sold their currency now have an [i]opportunity cost[/i] which is equal to your net gain. They are the loser in this scenario. When you make these assumptions that everyone wins, you get trapped into a warped view of trading that makes everyone out to be a winner in a bull market, and everyone a loser in a bear market. That's obviously not true. The people who fail to invest in a bull market, and fail to pull out in a bear market, are losers. (More accurately, the people who fail to short sell in a bear market are losers.)[/QUOTE] In bear market, true and quality companies survive, this is best time to invest into them. In new crypto world that is forming now, cryptocurrency or cryptotoken will represent company share or utility token for protocol (which can be also decentralized ride sharing for example).

([editline]edit[/editline] cont.) What I wanted to express is that there are certain times and circumstances where the best choice is to not buy the cryptocurrency in the first place, but that there are still people who do it anyway. That, and some people's gambling compulsion, is where the net value the 'winners' extract from their total transactions comes from. [editline]24th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Fourier;52395118]In bear market, true and quality companies survive, this is best time to invest into them. In new crypto world that is forming now, cryptocurrency or cryptotoken will represent company share or utility token for protocol (which can be also decentralized ride sharing for example).[/QUOTE] [I]Ideally[/I] yes. However I don't think that's feasible due to the transaction fee that they're required to have to be 'sustainable'. See [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1568569&p=52394695&viewfull=1#post52394695"]here[/URL]. [editline]edit[/editline] Essentially, traditional banks can use lending from promises and transaction float to offset these working costs and provide most transactions for free (in their respective markets). Cryptocurrencies are unable to do this internally with their current implementations.

[QUOTE=Fourier;52395118]In bear market, true and quality companies survive, this is best time to invest into them. In new crypto world that is forming now, cryptocurrency or cryptotoken will represent company share or utility token for protocol (which can be also decentralized ride sharing for example).[/QUOTE] How do you know which companies are quality companies? Stock selection based on fundamentals has been a fool's errand in investing for decades now. How is that suddenly different for crypto? The whole concept that crypto values are rising exponentially demonstrates the enormous risk premium that they carry. The bubble could pop any day now and a lot of people are going to be out their money. I speculated that when there's a market crash and people are demanding liquidity, you're going to see crypto prices drop like a rock. But we've yet to see a crash, so we're just waiting. Anyways, you are essentially describing stock issued over the counter - shares transacted directly by the company. This isn't a new concept, it's just done through a different medium.

amazing, this means i can sell my shitty r9 290x and get a better nvidia card again :v:

[QUOTE]Edited: I don't get what you mean by 'only one "t"'. If it's repeat transactions: That too doesn't have anything to do with any of my earlier posts. I think you're confused about what I wrote. [/QUOTE] One t is one time period. We all live and die in one moment. That's not how it works although it servers for some other things.

[QUOTE=joshuadim;52383970][t]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/211958101706932224/326907658579738635/unknown.png[/t] Here's what its like in canada land[/QUOTE] why purchase those ones over these though? [t]http://i.imgur.com/4ThVcig.jpg[/t] curious; I don't know anything about hardware

[QUOTE=The freeman;52388163]the problem with that is the same thing happened with the HD Radeon 7XXX series cards after Bitcoin's first big crash. you could buy them used for real cheap after that but the lifespan of them was shortened badly and many had issues in gaming already from being under high load 24/7/365. not sure if these cards would have the same issues though.[/QUOTE] It's a little different now. Previously, the cards were limited by their cores (leading to overclocking and overvolting in cases), but now they are more limited by memory bandwidth and latency. You can generally undervolt and underclock the cards with minimal loss of mining speed. Basically, the cards are under a lot less stress.

[QUOTE=Cronos Dage;52398135]why purchase those ones over these though? curious; I don't know anything about hardware[/QUOTE] They are based on different models. 1080 ti is 35% faster.

[QUOTE=Snowmew;52395168]How do you know which companies are quality companies? Stock selection based on fundamentals has been a fool's errand in investing for decades now. How is that suddenly different for crypto? The whole concept that crypto values are rising exponentially demonstrates the enormous risk premium that they carry. The bubble could pop any day now and a lot of people are going to be out their money. I speculated that when there's a market crash and people are demanding liquidity, you're going to see crypto prices drop like a rock. But we've yet to see a crash, so we're just waiting. Anyways, you are essentially describing stock issued over the counter - shares transacted directly by the company. This isn't a new concept, it's just done through a different medium.[/QUOTE] Yeah I agree, growth is crazy and current situation is that people trade tulips. About fundamentals - how is it that foolish? Pick stocks/crypto, that are very low / undervalued and have fundamentals : good team with good skills & vision, interesting idea and that is. Though funnily enough, in current state, mostly scam projects pump in crypto, meanwhile ones with fundamentals grow very slow if at all. Though I am sure in bear moments scam projects die and ones with fundamentals grow much more and stay there.

[QUOTE=Fourier;52398220]Yeah I agree, growth is crazy and current situation is that people trade tulips. About fundamentals - how is it that foolish? Pick stocks/crypto, that are very low / undervalued and have fundamentals : good team with good skills & vision, interesting idea and that is. Though funnily enough, in current state, mostly scam projects pump in crypto, meanwhile ones with fundamentals grow very slow if at all. Though I am sure in bear moments scam projects die and ones with fundamentals grow much more and stay there.[/QUOTE] Picking cryptos is about the same as picking stocks. And no financial advisor will tell you that picking stocks is a good idea. The performance of fundamental-based stock selection portfolios is usually worse than just picking them out of a hat.

[QUOTE=Megalan;52398180]They are based on different models. 1080 ti is 35% faster.[/QUOTE] these 1080s are still a pretty good deal then; about $100 less than their launch price. meanwhile the 1080 Ti is only $100–200 more than what it costed at launch. Both with Destiny 2 to boot. Looks like, aside from currency conversion, Canada wins this one

Fuck's sake, just as I was about to pull the trigger on the 1060 Hopefully this bubble bursts and bitcoin goes Black Swan soon

running an aging 660 here and practically broke, this is such wonderful news

Was looking for a 480x to get just a tiny bit cheaper, looks like I've waited too long and now it's twice the price thanks cryptocurrency miners, would be nice however if you sold those GPUs back to other people who would actually PROPERLY USE THEM.

Why is it that people are only buying 1060s and 1070s? For the prices that a used 1070 is going for now, you can easily get a used 1080. I've actually seen used 1080s that are cheaper than used 1070s.

[QUOTE=Snowmew;52398271]Picking cryptos is about the same as picking stocks. And no financial advisor will tell you that picking stocks is a good idea. The performance of fundamental-based stock selection portfolios is usually worse than just picking them out of a hat.[/QUOTE] Maybe in current market where everything is raped by QE (Quantitive Easing), but still it's safer bet to buy stocks of good company with vision. If bear market comes then you can be sure that all vaporware companies will die.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52399943]Why is it that people are only buying 1060s and 1070s? For the prices that a used 1070 is going for now, you can easily get a used 1080. I've actually seen used 1080s that are cheaper than used 1070s.[/QUOTE] 1070's mine faster than the 1080's.

[QUOTE=Fourier;52399956]Maybe in current market where everything is raped by QE (Quantitive Easing), but still it's safer bet to buy stocks of good company with vision. If bear market comes then you can be sure that all vaporware companies will die.[/QUOTE] Have fun with that. Stock picking has underperformed random selection for a long time now. I don't know who taught you otherwise but the huge majority of the financial community agrees that only a handful of active managers overperform, rarely ever consistently, and the edge is almost always eaten up by fees. Any neutral financial advisor will tell you just to get a total market fund and go home.

[QUOTE=Ogopogo;52399973]1070's mine faster than the 1080's.[/QUOTE] Huh, why is that?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;52399993]Huh, why is that?[/QUOTE] DDR5X memory versus DDR5