[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52480320]There are trading cards worth more than that, doesn't mean they're money.
You're literally mining something labeled as "currency" just in the hopes of turning around and selling it for actual, real money down the line.[/QUOTE]
You say that like it's unprecedented or something. This is exactly how money always works. Every government that mints its own currency should, like, stop immediately, because money isn't actually real
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52480419]You say that like it's unprecedented or something. This is exactly how money always works.[/quote]
The difference between trading cards and crypto-currencies is that trading cards are something made for a purpose other then to be re-sold down the line just because somebody really REALLY wants it, where-as crypto-currencies are made with the sole purpose of being a currency in and of itself, yet we have people mining them and selling them for real money because, let's face it, the crypto-currencies are practically useless on their own outside of certain online retailers and other more... "nefarious" markets.
And why people pay real money for these things is beyond me when, according to folks like yourself and others, it's more lucrative to just buy their own hardware/buy into a farm/coop/whatever you guys call them these days and mine their own. Especially given their instabilities.
[quote]Every government that mints its own currency should, like, stop immediately, because money isn't actually real[/QUOTE]
I've seen that argument before, and it doesn't really hold water as tightly as you think it should.
Yeah, printing more money reduces its value. But ultimately, a currency offered by a government is backed not only by its government, but by currencies across the globe. Why people put so much value in some new out-of-the-blue digital currency is beyond me. Hell, the fact that we even have more currencies after the introduction of BitCoin tells me it's just a sort of gold-rush. And we all know how those usually pan-out.
I bet as soon as it's no longer lucrative to mine these currencies for the sole purpose of turning around and selling it like some stock, people will stop caring about it. We're already seeing it with people jumping ship from mining BitCoin to DogeCoin, and now Etherium, etc. etc.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52480596]The difference between trading cards and crypto-currencies is that trading cards are something made for a purpose other then to be re-sold down the line just because somebody really REALLY wants it, where-as crypto-currencies are made with the sole purpose of being a currency in and of itself, yet we have people mining them and selling them for real money because, let's face it, the crypto-currencies are practically useless on their own outside of certain online retailers and other more... "nefarious" markets.
And why people pay real money for these things is beyond me when, according to folks like yourself and others, it's more lucrative to just buy their own hardware/buy into a farm/coop/whatever you guys call them these days and mine their own. Especially given their instabilities.
I've seen that argument before, and it doesn't really hold water as tightly as you think it should.
Yeah, printing more money reduces its value. But ultimately, a currency offered by a government is backed not only by its government, but by currencies across the globe. Why people put so much value in some new out-of-the-blue digital currency is beyond me. Hell, the fact that we even have more currencies after the introduction of BitCoin tells me it's just a sort of gold-rush. And we all know how those usually pan-out.
I bet as soon as it's no longer lucrative to mine these currencies for the sole purpose of turning around and selling it like some stock, people will stop caring about it. We're already seeing it with people jumping ship from mining BitCoin to DogeCoin, and now Etherium, etc. etc.[/QUOTE]
People put value into things that cost something. If someone wants to buy drugs or guns or whatever on the darknet, then they need cryptocurrency to do it. To get cryptocurrency, someone has to either mine it themselves or buy it from someone else. That's where the value comes from.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52480676]People put value into things that cost something. If someone wants to buy drugs or guns or whatever on the darknet, then they need cryptocurrency to do it. To get cryptocurrency, someone has to either mine it themselves or buy it from someone else. That's where the value comes from.[/QUOTE]
Congratulations, your funny money has value because of some shady characters on the internet.
Good to hear, I'm still running a GTX 550 Ti and when I heard about the rise in price I just gave up hope on running games past their lowest resolution for another couple years. Or running games, for that matter.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52480834]Congratulations, your funny money has value because of some shady characters on the internet.[/QUOTE]
You can use real money to buy drugs too
[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;52481036]You can use real money to buy drugs too[/QUOTE]
Then why go through the trouble of mining/trading it if you can just use real money in the first place?
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52480834]Congratulations, your funny money has value because of some shady characters on the internet.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and?
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52480834]Congratulations, your funny money has value because of some shady characters on the internet.[/QUOTE]
The only reason any currency has value is because enough people believe it does, yes even the US $
Crypto is at least backed by electricity/mining power. What is US dollar backed by?
[QUOTE=Fourier;52484660]Crypto is at least backed by electricity/mining power. What is US dollar backed by?[/QUOTE]
The good word and integrity of the United States :terrists:
[QUOTE=chipsnapper2;52484795]The good word and integrity of the United States :terrists:[/QUOTE]
Ah, hot air and metaphorical bullshit.
[QUOTE=Fourier;52484660]Crypto is at least backed by electricity/mining power. What is US dollar backed by?[/QUOTE]
By the government and by other currencies world-wide, exports, etc.
For an every-day person to be able to flip a switch and print their own "currency" is just fucking bizarre.
And it seems to me more that crypto-currency is backed by existing currencies anyway, as it appears the only reason people are doing it to begin with isn't because "it's the currency of the future!" but because "holy shit you mean I just buy GPUs in bulk and I can print money? SIGN ME UP!"
And like I said, doesn't do it any favors when the places that the currency is accepted mainly include a small handful of online retailers (who I can only assume accept it in the hopes of re-selling it down the line, so congrats, you've basically created a "digital gold standard" that relies on something completely made-up and manufactured) and the black-market.
You aren't printing money, you are getting paid in exchange for processing power. Bitcoin is an asset. It has value in the same way my TF2 backpack is worth real money if I sell items for AUD.
I can also exchange my AUD for USD, however I can't spend that here in Australia. But that doesn't make it worthless. Passing bitcoin off as 'internet fun bux' is just ignorant.
[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;52485347]You aren't printing money, you are getting paid in exchange for processing power. Bitcoin is an asset. It has value in the same way my TF2 backpack is worth real money if I sell items for AUD.
I can also exchange my AUD for USD, however I can't spend that here in Australia. But that doesn't make it worthless. Passing bitcoin off as 'internet fun bux' is just ignorant.[/QUOTE]
Your processing power, as far as I'm aware (and unless it's one of those new/rare "do this and help cure cancer, also magic internet money is yours" deals), is purely for crunching some arbitrary numbers. What are these numbers for? What good are they doing?
I've seen a video that says it's involved in some sort of security application, but then why not pay out an existing currency for such important work? Why pull a new currency out of your ass and not just use a payment curve of existing currency? It's like they've gone and said "you're doing it for the exposure!" except "exposure" has somehow become the latest craze and people are eating it up.
If it's purely for maintaining the network's security, then at what point does the decreasing payout make it no longer viable for anyone to volunteer their hardware to maintain it?
And I'm not just talking about Bitcoin, I'm talking about other "mined" currencies in general, like dogecoin (if that's still even a thing) and the like that have sprouted up out of nowhere to cash in on this craze.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485423]Your processing power, as far as I'm aware (and unless it's one of those new/rare "do this and help cure cancer, also magic internet money is yours" deals), is purely for crunching some arbitrary numbers. What are these numbers for? What good are they doing?
I've seen a video that says it's involved in some sort of security application, but then why not pay out an existing currency for such important work? Why pull a new currency out of your ass and not just use a payment curve of existing currency?[/QUOTE]
The crypto done for mining is no more arbitrary than using huge amounts of an unreactive shiny yellow metal to back your moneys worth.
[QUOTE=Chubbs;52485445]The crypto done for mining is no more arbitrary than using huge amounts of an unreactive shiny yellow metal to back your moneys worth.[/QUOTE]
The "shiny yellow metal" has a few properties that make it valuable, including (but not limited to):
Various uses in industry due to its incredible lack of reactivity (particularly electronics)
Jewelry/art due to its luster (I personally don't see the attraction but for some reason people are willing to cover themselves and objects with it)
The fact that you can't just "magic" more gold out of nowhere. Once you've mined it all, that's it, unless you start dragging it in from space rocks.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485423]Your processing power, as far as I'm aware (and unless it's one of those new/rare "do this and help cure cancer, also magic internet money is yours" deals), is purely for crunching some arbitrary numbers. What are these numbers for? What good are they doing?
I've seen a video that says it's involved in some sort of security application, but then why not pay out an existing currency for such important work? Why pull a new currency out of your ass and not just use a payment curve of existing currency? It's like they've gone and said "you're doing it for the exposure!" except "exposure" has somehow become the latest craze and people are eating it up.
If it's purely for maintaining the network's security, then at what point does the decreasing payout make it no longer viable for anyone to volunteer their hardware to maintain it?
And I'm not just talking about Bitcoin, I'm talking about other "mined" currencies in general, like dogecoin (if that's still even a thing) and the like that have sprouted up out of nowhere to cash in on this craze.[/QUOTE]
Those "numbers" are processing bitcoin transactions. When you want to send coins to someone, it has to be confirmed by the network that it is legitimate and that you own the coins. You pay a fee to have your transaction processed otherwise no bitcoin miners are going to do it.
I don't know what the hell you are talking about with the whole payment curve and exposure bullshit. At the beginning it was worth nothing, you aren't doing it for "exposure" you're doing it out of interest. Maybe you thought these coins would be worth something someday. It started gaining worth when people were willing to pay money for it.
It won't become no longer viable to mine due to how it all works. The amount of coins you can mine depends on the fees people are paying and the amount of other miners out there. Less miners, more coins for you. High load on the network, higher fees, more coins for you.
Those other currencies aren't cashing on anything. No money is being exchanged to one person or company or whatever. It's all traded among other traders, and maintained by traders. In tf2 you can trade hats with others for money but valve doesn't gain anything from those transaction.
[editline]20th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485487]The "shiny yellow metal" has a few properties that make it valuable, including (but not limited to):
Various uses in industry due to its incredible lack of reactivity (particularly electronics)
Jewelry/art due to its luster (I personally don't see the attraction but for some reason people are willing to cover themselves and objects with it)
The fact that you can't just "magic" more gold out of nowhere. Once you've mined it all, that's it, unless you start dragging it in from space rocks.[/QUOTE]
Those reasons are not any different as to what makes bitcoin valuable. All it really comes down to is what people are willing to pay. Gold's isn't worth a thing if no one is buying.
Bitcoins are also a limited resource. There's a finite amount that is mineable. After that, that is all the coins that will exist. You can delete them and they will be gone forever. You can't just magic bitcoins out of nowhere. The bitcoin network has to verify their existence.
[QUOTE=AJ10017;52480349]my point in the second post was that its not absurd, hunting for gold is really interesting. I dont buy graphics card anyway for mining, as i dont mine a coin that requires a powerful GPU or CPU. I mine a coin that uses hard drives :why:
[URL]https://www.burst-team.us/[/URL][/QUOTE]
Proof of capacity mining? What is that?
[QUOTE=Svinnik;52475533]I thought it was safe to buy a mining card since they've been undervolted while mining[/QUOTE]
If the miner knew what he was doing and underclocked the GPU, it will probably be in good shape. So make sure to only buy used from experienced miners. Specifically ask them if they undervolted, ask to see their mining rigs, etc..
[QUOTE=a-k-t-w;52485587]Those "numbers" are processing bitcoin transactions. When you want to send coins to someone, it has to be confirmed by the network that it is legitimate and that you own the coins. You pay a fee to have your transaction processed otherwise no bitcoin miners are going to do it.
I don't know what the hell you are talking about with the whole payment curve and exposure bullshit. At the beginning it was worth nothing, you aren't doing it for "exposure" you're doing it out of interest. Maybe you thought these coins would be worth something someday. It started gaining worth when people were willing to pay money for it.[/quote]
My point of using the "doing it for the exposure" comparison is that unless you're being paid actual, usable currency for what you are dedicating time/energy towards, you're not doing it for anything other than "good feels" or, as many a cheap-skate has tried to claim to get something for nothing, "[url=http://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure]]the exposure[/url]", hence the comparison.
[quote]It won't become no longer viable to mine due to how it all works. The amount of coins you can mine depends on the fees people are paying and the amount of other miners out there. Less miners, more coins for you. High load on the network, higher fees, more coins for you.[/quote]
So people are spending thousands, if not millions, of dollars, to board a hype-train in the hopes of making money, only for it to inevitably "go bust" in that they won't be able to recoup their losses when there's literally everybody and their grandma building rigs/buying into mining farms. That just seems silly to me.
[quote]Those other currencies aren't cashing on anything. No money is being exchanged to one person or company or whatever. It's all traded among other traders, and maintained by traders. In tf2 you can trade hats with others for money but valve doesn't gain anything from those transaction.[/quote]
I never tried to claim TF2 hats were currency, either, and my attitude towards that line of thinking are the same.
What do they have to gain by just making up more crypto-currencies on a whim, then, especially when their main arguments seem to be "we're more stable/profitable than bitcoin per-kWH"? (or at least that seems to be the biggest attractor for those seeking to mine them)
[quote]Those reasons are not any different as to what makes bitcoin valuable. All it really comes down to is what people are willing to pay. Gold's isn't worth a thing if no one is buying.[/quote]
Gold is always needed, unless you can find a material with comparable malleability, that can be drawn into wires, is exceptionally corrosion-resistant, etc., to replace its current uses in industry/aerospace (don't think people haven't tried), then it will always have value, because you can [I]use it to do actual stuff[/I] other than just trading it as this year's hottest commodity. Even if there were no currencies (as in things/systems set up exclusively for trade outside of bartering) at all, there would be a use, and therefor a need, for gold, and therefor it will always have value.
[quote]Bitcoins are also a limited resource. There's a finite amount that is mineable. After that, that is all the coins that will exist. You can delete them and they will be gone forever. You can't just magic bitcoins out of nowhere. The bitcoin network has to verify their existence.[/QUOTE]
They're "magic'd" out of nowhere in comparison to gold in that they're created with only a math problem and however many kilowatts you're willing to throw at it. Gold requires exceptional effort from mining to refinement by comparison.
Look, I don't know why you guys get super defensive when I call it "funny money", because that's my opinion, and I've stated my reasons for why I think it's a silly idea. If you're plunking away at hashes or whatever and are having fun doing it, then more power to you. I just find the whole thing silly from various perspectives and have explained why, though if you're willing to discuss it further then don't let me stop you, but perhaps PM would be better suited from here-on out.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485487]The "shiny yellow metal" has a few properties that make it valuable, including (but not limited to):
Various uses in industry due to its incredible lack of reactivity (particularly electronics)
Jewelry/art due to its luster (I personally don't see the attraction but for some reason people are willing to cover themselves and objects with it)
The fact that you can't just "magic" more gold out of nowhere. Once you've mined it all, that's it, unless you start dragging it in from space rocks.[/QUOTE]
Gold was completely useless for thousands of years and was still valuable. The practical applications of gold have nothing to do with its price. Gold can stretch very thin and you don't need much of it for industry.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52485961]Gold was completely useless for thousands of years and was still valuable.[/QUOTE]
Useless how? It was perfect for jewelry and other ornamentation in that it was malleable, hammerable into thin sheets (leafing), could be cast with fine detail, had a desirable luster, etc. Even if it weren't as rare as it is, it'd still be desirable for jewelry and such due to its properties. it just wouldn't cost as much.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485423]Your processing power, as far as I'm aware (and unless it's one of those new/rare "do this and help cure cancer, also magic internet money is yours" deals), is purely for crunching some arbitrary numbers. What are these numbers for? What good are they doing?
I've seen a video that says it's involved in some sort of security application, but then why not pay out an existing currency for such important work? Why pull a new currency out of your ass and not just use a payment curve of existing currency? It's like they've gone and said "you're doing it for the exposure!" except "exposure" has somehow become the latest craze and people are eating it up.
If it's purely for maintaining the network's security, then at what point does the decreasing payout make it no longer viable for anyone to volunteer their hardware to maintain it?
And I'm not just talking about Bitcoin, I'm talking about other "mined" currencies in general, like dogecoin (if that's still even a thing) and the like that have sprouted up out of nowhere to cash in on this craze.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to touch your argument with a 40 yard stick in the context of bitcoin, but for etherium in particular, etherium processing handles real world contract processing. Etherium is a scripting language more than it is a crypto currency, miners are rewarded for processing contract terms with the currency.
You can read about it [URL="http://blockgeeks.com/guides/smart-contracts-the-blockchain-technology-that-will-replace-lawyers/"]here[/URL]
The reason that you would not use an existing currency for something like this is logistics. The entire *purpose* of ether is to pay for transaction fees, if there were transaction fees from external services applied ontop of that brought on by currency exchange, the entire system would be worthless.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485967]Useless how? It was perfect for jewelry and other ornamentation in that it was malleable, hammerable into thin sheets (leafing), could be cast with fine detail, had a desirable luster, etc.[/QUOTE]
How is jewelry not useless? Its only purpose is to show that you have even more gold. Yeah, it looks nice, but I still don't think that gold was ever expensive because of any of its properties. It was expensive because it was rare
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485960]My point of using the "doing it for the exposure" comparison is that unless you're being paid actual, usable currency for what you are dedicating time/energy towards, you're not doing it for anything other than "good feels" or, as many a cheap-skate has tried to claim to get something for nothing, "[url=http://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure]]the exposure[/url]", hence the comparison.
So people are spending thousands, if not millions, of dollars, to board a hype-train in the hopes of making money, only for it to inevitably "go bust" in that they won't be able to recoup their losses when there's literally everybody and their grandma building rigs/buying into mining farms. That just seems silly to me.
I never tried to claim TF2 hats were currency, either, and my attitude towards that line of thinking are the same.
What do they have to gain by just making up more crypto-currencies on a whim, then, especially when their main arguments seem to be "we're more stable/profitable than bitcoin per-kWH"? (or at least that seems to be the biggest attractor for those seeking to mine them)
Gold is always needed, unless you can find a material with comparable malleability, that can be drawn into wires, is exceptionally corrosion-resistant, etc., to replace its current uses in industry/aerospace (don't think people haven't tried), then it will always have value, because you can [I]use it to do actual stuff[/I] other than just trading it as this year's hottest commodity. Even if there were no currencies (as in things/systems set up exclusively for trade outside of bartering) at all, there would be a use, and therefor a need, for gold, and therefor it will always have value.
They're "magic'd" out of nowhere in comparison to gold in that they're created with only a math problem and however many kilowatts you're willing to throw at it. Gold requires exceptional effort from mining to refinement by comparison.
Look, I don't know why you guys get super defensive when I call it "funny money", because that's my opinion, and I've stated my reasons for why I think it's a silly idea. If you're plunking away at hashes or whatever and are having fun doing it, then more power to you. I just find the whole thing silly from various perspectives and have explained why, though if you're willing to discuss it further then don't let me stop you, but perhaps PM would be better suited from here-on out.[/QUOTE]
This response is baffling. You have completely disregarded everything I said, did you even read my post properly? You fail to understand some basic high school grade economics, why are you coming into a thread like this and offering your opinion on a subject you don't know anything about?
This talk about exposure, youre just guessing the reasons people mine. I'll say it again, you mine because you are getting paid to mine. Have you heard of the concept of giving someone labour in exchange for cash? It's like that.
Who is spending millions of dollars on... What? If you invest into something without doing research than you're just an idiot. If anyone is dropping this kind of money on a mining setup they would have done the math to see if it's worth it, otherwise they would not have that kind of money to begin with.
I never made any connection with TF2 hats and currency, that's all you.
The reason you call it funny money is because the concept is lost on you. Bitcoin is not any different from any other kind of investment. You could win some you could lose some, even with Gold. It's taken seriously by many people and the fact that its worth anything at all proves this.
[QUOTE=FlakAttack;52485811]Proof of capacity mining? What is that?[/QUOTE]
Cryptocurrency mined using your hard drive space instead of GPU's. Instead of buying lots of GPU's to mine, you buy lots of external hard drives.
[QUOTE=AJ10017;52486158]Cryptocurrency mined using your hard drive space instead of GPU's. Instead of buying lots of GPU's to mine, you buy lots of external hard drives.[/QUOTE]
If we could have a shortage of a specific computer component lasting months at a time, I think storage would be WAY worse than graphics processors.
I do wonder if the designer for Ether knew what he was causing.
[QUOTE=chipsnapper2;52486425]If we could have a shortage of a specific computer component lasting months at a time, I think storage would be WAY worse than graphics processors.
I do wonder if the designer for Ether knew what he was causing.[/QUOTE]
It's happened. Few years ago with the Thailand floods that knocked out Seagate and WD warehouses
Confirmed for mega ass
[QUOTE=AJ10017;52486158]Cryptocurrency mined using your hard drive space instead of GPU's. Instead of buying lots of GPU's to mine, you buy lots of external hard drives.[/QUOTE]
How long have you been mining Burst? How much accumulative space do you have plotted for it all? I heard it takes a shit ton of time to plot each TB.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;52485960]My point of using the "doing it for the exposure" comparison is that unless you're being paid actual, usable currency for what you are dedicating time/energy towards, you're not doing it for anything other than "good feels" or, as many a cheap-skate has tried to claim to get something for nothing, "[URL="http://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure"]]the exposure[/URL]", hence the comparison.
So people are spending thousands, if not millions, of dollars, to board a hype-train in the hopes of making money, only for it to inevitably "go bust" in that they won't be able to recoup their losses when there's literally everybody and their grandma building rigs/buying into mining farms. That just seems silly to me.
I never tried to claim TF2 hats were currency, either, and my attitude towards that line of thinking are the same.
What do they have to gain by just making up more crypto-currencies on a whim, then, especially when their main arguments seem to be "we're more stable/profitable than bitcoin per-kWH"? (or at least that seems to be the biggest attractor for those seeking to mine them)
Gold is always needed, unless you can find a material with comparable malleability, that can be drawn into wires, is exceptionally corrosion-resistant, etc., to replace its current uses in industry/aerospace (don't think people haven't tried), then it will always have value, because you can [I]use it to do actual stuff[/I] other than just trading it as this year's hottest commodity. Even if there were no currencies (as in things/systems set up exclusively for trade outside of bartering) at all, there would be a use, and therefor a need, for gold, and therefor it will always have value.
They're "magic'd" out of nowhere in comparison to gold in that they're created with only a math problem and however many kilowatts you're willing to throw at it. Gold requires exceptional effort from mining to refinement by comparison.
Look, I don't know why you guys get super defensive when I call it "funny money", because that's my opinion, and I've stated my reasons for why I think it's a silly idea. If you're plunking away at hashes or whatever and are having fun doing it, then more power to you. I just find the whole thing silly from various perspectives and have explained why, though if you're willing to discuss it further then don't let me stop you, but perhaps PM would be better suited from here-on out.[/QUOTE]
Funny money huh? Ethereum is less of a currency than you think it is.
[URL]http://fortune.com/2017/02/28/ethereum-jpmorgan-microsoft-alliance/[/URL]
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