You've drunk too much of the Koolaide, I've seen democrats denounce Antifa as a fringe Anarchist Group and you still do whataboutism
[QUOTE=aydin690;52621267]Well, violence is the only language [...] trump supports understand[/QUOTE]
Do you seriously believe that or are you trying to be a provocateur?
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623801]
One should realize that even the neo-nazis at Charlottsville are quite different from neo-nazis of the 80s-00s, and the real nazis of the 1940's. You would actually have a hard time finding serious Genocidal quotes from them as they mostly focus on Ethno-statism as their end goal or in some cases just identitarian-race advocacy nowadays.
Again, my question has been mainly why is it okay to be for the violence displayed in the video? Where we don't have any clear clue the people attacked were even Nazis to begin with.[/QUOTE]
I'm stepping in here, Tudd, because I answered this exact some point about the exact same group imply-asked by the exact same ASCII frog avatar months ago.
[QUOTE=MrBob1337;52319035]Stop deflecting. His fears about those at the protest being anti-semetic are fully justified, and you are fully aware I was not talking about Trump voters.
Here is The Guardian detailing some of the people known to be attending the rally:
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/02/alt-right-celebrities-rally-portland-train-stabbing[/url]
Joey Gibson runs Patriot Prayer and Warriors for Freedom. Warriors For Freedom is [i]not[/i] the Warriors for Freedom Foundation you probably found in your ten seconds of Google; it's a veteran's political group. I think the Free Speech Rally is conducted under Patriot Prayer.
As in your video, he oftentimes goes out of his way to say that alt-right and white supremacist figures are not welcome at his events. However, he is doing an incredibly poor job of enforcing this.
Here's a couple people who were front and center at the last Gibson event.[IMG]https://image.prntscr.com/image/5816968ecf1144ed93072de02f24ec74.png[/IMG]
(that's an Identity Europa sticker...)
[IMG]https://image.prntscr.com/image/228b6390818e4441bb9e18593befbc3b.png[/IMG]
(...posted by this guy...)
[IMG]https://image.prntscr.com/image/82415c3b50354f4b8b00a7db8bfe3ec6.png[/IMG]
(who, no, wasn't just some rando who snuck in, but was part of the group that posed with Mayor Wheeler.)
Here's another first-hand report from the last "Rally for Free Speech" Gibson event (the guy in the Germany shirt in the last photo is also mentioned here)
[url]http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2017/04/29/18983985/photos-and-video-saturdays-right-wing-march-left-wing-protest-in-montavilla[/url]
Oh, what's this?
[IMG]https://image.prntscr.com/image/eca2b807d731463295346faef74dd674.png[/IMG]
:thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:
This is more than an isolated incident or two. This is a pattern of fascist groups being able to create and claim a presence in these protests while security does nothing to remove or challenge them.
[b]Is Joey Gibson a Nazi, fascist, or even anti-semetic? Probably not. But he has clearly decided that removing these people from his event or denying them platform are not a top priority.[/b] And that's always been what lets these people take power.[/QUOTE]
Rephrased yet again, Patriot Prayer rallies are notorious for having quite a lot of Nazis below their nondenominational right-wing surface.
I'm not going to pretend that the anarchists were anything better-organized than a mob, or that they only ever punch Real Nazis™ and never make mistakes. You and I both know that's false. But it's clear they choose who they beat up, as in the video you they run past several non-journalist people and shrug off a couple others who try and break up the fight.
On a related note, this:
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623801]
One should realize that even the neo-nazis at Charlottsville are quite different from neo-nazis of the 80s-00s, and the real nazis of the 1940's. You would actually have a hard time finding serious Genocidal quotes from them as they mostly focus on Ethno-statism as their end goal or in some cases just identitarian-race advocacy nowadays.[/QUOTE]
is the exact type of "normalizing" that getting into street battles with Nazis is supposed to speak against. "They're not advocating genocide, just an ethno-state guys!" is the sort of thing I never thought I would see uttered as a serious argument and not be torn apart instantly. By what miracle of negotiation do you believe these ethnostates would be peacefully and voluntarily cleared of non-whites?
Also why the fuck did you bring up Communism? I already know it fucking sucks...you dont need to remind me Tudd.
Like...what world do you live in? Why do you believe when somebody hates Nazis, somehow you think they like Communism.
Your raging left-hating boner is getting old.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("This isn't a Tudd thread." - UncleJimmema))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=MrBob1337;52623849]I'm stepping in here, Tudd, because I answered this exact some point about the exact same group imply-asked by the exact same ASCII frog avatar months ago.
Rephrased yet again, Patriot Prayer rallies are notorious for having quite a lot of Nazis below their nondenominational right-wing surface. [/quote]
Surprise, people who are ardent supporters of Freedom of Speech allow for open platforms for even the most despicable. You should also mention they allow for left-wing activists speak there as long as they don't attack them.
[quote]
I'm not going to pretend that the anarchists were anything better-organized than a mob, or that they only ever punch Real Nazis™ and never make mistakes. You and I both know that's false. But it's clear they choose who they beat up, as in the video you they run past several non-journalist people and shrug off a couple others who try and break up the fight.[/quote]
Well there is actual videos of them just attacking journalists for no reason, and imo one of the main reasons this smaller rally actually go more reported by the MSM than the previous bigger ones. An AP journalist got attack and their article/evidence spread.
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/17/2-journalists-allegedly-assaulted-by-charlottesville-counter-protesters.html[/url]
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15p1i8USJs8[/media]
[quote]
On a related note, this:
is the exact type of "normalizing" that getting into street battles with Nazis is supposed to speak against. "They're not advocating genocide, just an ethno-state guys!" is the sort of thing I never thought I would see uttered as a serious argument and not be torn apart instantly. By what miracle of negotiation do you believe these ethnostates would be peacefully and voluntarily cleared of non-whites?[/QUOTE]
Actually I think this kind of analysis is what keeps people from seeing the world black and white and thus offer simple solutions to complex problems. It is this same kind of analysis of why I don't think every Antifa member is a Stalinist ready to take power or completely gone to the point of no return, and thus don't advocate extrajudicial violence against them as a whole. In reality they are just a mish-mash of misguided individuals believing they are doing good and trying to consolidate power with pseudo-benevolent social justice beliefs. I worry more about the ringleaders these people follow and the ones that truly drive their ideology of "Peace through violence" which is applied to greater swatch opponents they dislike.
[editline]28th August 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Uber22;52623870]Also why the fuck did you bring up Communism? I already know it fucking sucks...you dont need to remind me Tudd.
Like...what world do you live in? Why do you believe when somebody hates Nazis, somehow you think they like Communism.
Your raging left-hating boner is getting old.[/QUOTE]
I think if people read more about the genocides/mass-killings committed by regimes in the 20th century, they would be worried about groups like Nazis and Communists (Authoritative ideologies) in general rather than focusing in on one as the only true evil.
The Age of Triage is a fantastic book that deals with this kind of subject.
[editline]28th August 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Uber22;52623823]Heres a thing about those Communist countries. People died because they were shit systems of government.[/quote]
Was Lenin/Trotsky being shitty at government when they implemented the Red Terror? Read quotes from these people on what they deemed "parasites" and you will see an ideological reasoning to their actions.
Was Stalin just being careless with the economy by persecuting "Kulaks" and creating an human-made famine on the Ukranians at their expense to modernize Russia? Or what about his purges, implementation of massacres like Katyn, and formation of the Gulag Archipelago?
Don't even need to list Mao's achievements, the Great Cultural Revolution was completely avoidable on ideological grounds.
[quote]
Those pictures, thats what Neo-nazis want, thats what Nazis Want. That is there end game, every fucking Nazi and Neo-nazi wants to slaughter every fucking minority on this planet. All of those Neo-Nazis at that protest were just itching to pull the trigger onto the counter-protestors. Antifa only attacks people because they're a bunch of dumbasses who dont know what the fuck they want to do in their life.[/quote]
You actually don't know the end-game for every "nazi" you think you see. You really have no idea until a person spouts their opinion if they are someone like Richard Spencer to David Duke to Heinrich Himmler. If every Nazi's endgame will always be Genocide, then why did we implement denazification after WW2? Was that being too compassionate to the millions of Nazi-supporters still left over who you say will always be genocidal/can't be dealt with?
[quote]
Nazis and Neo-nazis. They demand slaughter, they demand the Earth to be drenched in the blood of the "Untermensch". They do not care about anyone else but them, they would rather see the corpses of Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Non-Aryan Europeans, and many others stuffed into graves and be left to rot in the scorching Sun.[/quote]
Alot of them do, but just like the Nation of Islam is an Antisemitic ethno-statist group of people, they are not the same as the Black Panthers or other black advocacy groups. You can't just attribute the severity of other groups so easily, and yes, there is a range of white nationalists with different endgoals and willingness to implement violence or use it at all.
[QUOTE=Uber22;52623823]Heres a thing about those Communist countries. People died because they were shit systems of government.
Those pictures, thats what Neo-nazis want, thats what Nazis Want. That is there end game, every fucking Nazi and Neo-nazi wants to slaughter every fucking minority on this planet. All of those Neo-Nazis at that protest were just itching to pull the trigger onto the counter-protestors. Antifa only attacks people because they're a bunch of dumbasses who dont know what the fuck they want to do in their life.
Nazis and Neo-nazis. They demand slaughter, they demand the Earth to be drenched in the blood of the "Untermensch". They do not care about anyone else but them, they would rather see the corpses of Blacks, Asians, Native Americans, Non-Aryan Europeans, and many others stuffed into graves and be left to rot in the scorching Sun.
These Fuckers are Text-book monsters. Monsters that lurk underneath your bed, the monsters that lurk in the shadows. They are nothing but a plight of humanity and they only want the destruction of any Non-aryan individual on this Earth.
Fuck this Fucking Left-right Political leaning bullshit.
Anyone who supports these cunts are against Humanity as a whole.[/QUOTE]
Your argument falls apart here since you've given no real proof that antifa in general are communists, let alone the ones at this protest
[editline]28th August 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Uber22;52623870]Also why the fuck did you bring up Communism? I already know it fucking sucks...you dont need to remind me Tudd.
Like...what world do you live in? Why do you believe when somebody hates Nazis, somehow you think they like Communism.
Your raging left-hating boner is getting old.[/QUOTE]
Because he says antifa is infested with anarcho-communists, despite he himself admitting there is no proof of that.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52623975]
Because he says antifa is infested with anarcho-communists, despite he himself admitting there is no proof of that.[/QUOTE]
Even though I showed quite abit of solid assessment by experts that they are composed of socialists, anarchists, and communists. And their actions are quite anarchist in general. They certainly are not for Capitalism or Fascism and they haven't displayed any liking to these platforms, thus not leaving much options what they are for.
Ofcourse, Anecdotally you could have me just post the countless times they just wear Communist/Anarchist logos on their person and their actual preference to wear the colors of the Anarcho-Communist banner.
But please, do tell me how else you would describe Antifa political-leaning wise in your own words.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623801]Thank you for the imagery, though I have worked at a Holocaust Museum and do my studies related to it so such images are not new to me. Nor do I not acknowledge their horrifying nature.
Should I retort with equally horrific images of Communist/revolutionary war crimes and draw correlations with past communists to ones in Antifa, or can I save us the logical fallacy that someone can win an argument like this with pure emotional appeal and saying "they are Nazis"?
One should realize that even the neo-nazis at Charlottsville are quite different from neo-nazis of the 80s-00s, and the real nazis of the 1940's. You would actually have a hard time finding serious Genocidal quotes from them as they mostly focus on Ethno-statism as their end goal or in some cases just identitarian-race advocacy nowadays. Doesn't make the potential any less dangerous, but to think that modern-day white nationalists are murderers to the same degree as Nazis of the 1940s is just attributing too much to them.
Again, my question has been mainly why is it okay to be for the violence displayed in the video? Where we don't have any clear clue the people attacked were even Nazis to begin with.[/QUOTE]
Call me crazy but I don't think "maybe these self-described Nazis don't actually want to kill the Jews" is a very compelling argument to make.
What the fuck do you think is going to be the end result of "ethno-statism"? What's going to happen to minorities in such a society? Are you that naive?
Communism is purely an economic theory and there's nothing about it that encourages racism and genocide. We've been through this. Next.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623998]Even though I showed quite abit of solid assessment by experts that they are composed of socialists, anarchists, and communists. And their actions are quite anarchist in general. They certainly are not for Capitalism or Fascism and they haven't displayed any liking to these platforms, thus not leaving much options what they are for.
Ofcourse, Anecdotally you could have me just post the countless times they just wear Communist/Anarchist logos on their person and their actual preference to wear the colors of the Anarcho-Communist banner.
But please, do tell me how else you would describe Antifa political-leaning wise in your own words.[/QUOTE]
They're against right wing extremism and fascism. That's it.
[QUOTE=Jim Morrison;52623999]Call me crazy but I don't think "maybe these self-described Nazis don't actually want to kill the Jews" is a very compelling argument to make.
What the fuck do you think is going to be the end result of "ethno-statism"? What's going to happen to minorities in such a society? Are you that naive?
[/QUOTE]
Oh no, I still worry about these people, but their capability to implement their ideas is way overblown relative to their actual political power.
[quote]Communism is purely an economic theory and there's nothing about it that encourages racism and genocide. We've been through this. Next[/quote]
Actually having seen this statement thrown around a few times, it seems quite a number of you actually just believe "Communism is only economics" is a valid excuse to ignore its real social consequences it has consistently been created by its implementation.
So believe it or not, Communism has inherent social values that make it more than just an economic model, just like every other major ideology like Capitalism and Fascism. Karl Marx didn't just talk about economics, he talked about government structure, and human motivation to be oppressive through greed and exploiting social classes for capital. This class struggle and how people identify what is Bourgeoisie is what allowed for a great deal of persecution. Not to mention that Communism requires a homogeneous population to work, and thus agitators can always be conveniently found if someone doesn't act/perform the way the communists want them to. These are all part of the social aspects and possible consequences of implementing Communism. Fascism is very similar in that nature, but any totalitarian ideology follows this trend. Communism just has that Utopian image that the totalitarian state which just disappear benevolently.
The reason why I bring up Fascism is because both ideologies at their fundamental core values don't have genocide or racism as requirements. Just like Communism, these ideologies are often implemented in different interpretations and methods like National Socialism, Italian Fascism, Leninism, Stalinism, etc etc. Stalin justified his persecution of the Ukrainians with notions of class struggle by labeling landowners as "Kulaks" for example.
So no, Communism is not "just an economic theory." and its creator would laugh at you wondering if you read Das Kapital or the Communist Manifesto and missed the parts of capitalistic exploitation and the Proletariat revolution completely.
Why the fuck are they wearing black hoods in this weather. It's hot as fuck in the bay right now.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52624003]They're against right wing extremism and fascism. That's it.[/QUOTE]
Actually you can find commonly they are against the press (as shown above and in past events), the Police, [url=http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html]Capitalists[/url] (They don't mind arsoning ATM machines and major corporate stores), freedom of speech, and even moderate Liberals.
[t]http://thefederalistpapers.integratedmarket.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/berkeley-today-FB.jpg[/t]
[t]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NjMDHKoG--U/maxresdefault.jpg[/t]
[t]https://smagicblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/c3ownyyueaeeev2.jpg[/t]
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj7DzMn3b30&t[/media]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52624003]They're against right wing extremism and fascism. That's it.[/QUOTE]
Reluctant to agree with Tudd but find me someone who identifies as antifa and is also pro-capitalism. Liberal antifa are flying pigs.
i like to bash fash and collect cash
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shit posting - You know better" - UncleJimmema))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623897]Surprise, people who are ardent supporters of Freedom of Speech allow for open platforms for even the most despicable. You should also mention they allow for left-wing activists speak there as long as they don't attack them. [/QUOTE]
This is the exact tact you took in the thread I just quoted. Your deflection techniques are still on point. The point I am refuting is that "we don't know if there were any Nazis there". We don't, but history has shown that Patriot Prayer rallies generally attract people from that section of the spectrum, and therefore there were likely legitimate targets of violence at the rally.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623897]
Well there is actual videos of them just attacking journalists for no reason, and imo one of the main reasons this smaller rally actually go more reported by the MSM than the previous bigger ones. An AP journalist got attack and their article/evidence spread. [/QUOTE]
Okay? I literally said I'm not claiming that black-bloc never hit the wrong person. I'm well aware that violent mobs, either by individual aggressiveness or collective delusion, attack people beyond their stated goals or what's right. I am saying that there are, in fact, people who should be attacked - Nazis.
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623897]
Actually I think this kind of analysis is what keeps people from seeing the world black and white and thus offer simple solutions to complex problems. It is this same kind of analysis of why I don't think every Antifa member is a Stalinist ready to take power or completely gone to the point of no return, and thus don't advocate extrajudicial violence against them as a whole. In reality they are just a mish-mash of misguided individuals believing they are doing good and trying to consolidate power with pseudo-benevolent social justice beliefs. I worry more about the ringleaders these people follow and the ones that truly drive their ideology of "Peace through violence" which is applied to greater swatch opponents they dislike.
[and rest of post]
[/QUOTE]
[B]It is black and white. Whether they are white nationalist, white supremacist, white seperatist, Nazis, or whatever fun new title they come up with, the end goal is some or all of the United States free of non-whites.[/B]
It does not matter what methods they use to achieve this. There are non-white people in every region.
of the United States. These people are not going to spontaneously leave. In some form, they will be removed, either out of the country by force or into mass graves by bullets, in order to have a purely white United States. This is genocide one way or the other. Organizing white nationalism is organizing genocide. Organizing white supremacists is organizing genocide. Standing by and letting this happen is
The reason you don't think every Antifa is a Stalinist is because they aren't. You should not get points for not being 100% divorced from reality, and I do not intend to give you any.
The broad concept of Communism does not inherently involve wholesale murder. The broad concepts of Nazism and white nationalism does. It is really that simple. While the horrible acts and unacceptable compromises in liberty carried out in Communism's name in the 20th century may have tainted many classic ideologies, it does not carry the same core of evil that ethnofascism does.
If there were a group called "Literally Make the US the Soviet Union But Only The Worst Parts" marching in the streets of our cities, would you want me to nitpick and say "well hold on there pal, they're not [I]all[/I] Stalinists, some of them are Leninists! Maoists! Hoxhaists! maybe don't [I]judge???????[/I]"?
Your splitting of hairs is honestly disgusting, and I'm amazed you have been able to type it out without breaking down.
[QUOTE=paindoc;52623193]No. No, no, no, nope, nadda, no. Nope.
Holy fuck how is this still a thing [I]anyone[/I] thinks. Lets dive into a blog about violence among radical ideologies in the US, [URL="https://www.cato.org/blog/terrorism-deaths-ideology-charlottesville-anomaly"]shall we[/URL]? Right off the bat, Islamists take a huge chunk as this data includes the 9/11 attacks: that's not relevant to the discussion at hand, though. Of the remaining though, there were 219 murders by right-wing terror groups and 23 by left-wing groups (consult the article for what kinds of terrorists fit in these groups: right is a lot more than jsut neo-nazis, left is a lot more than just Antifa). So, folks like antifa murdered 9.5 times fewer people in the same time period. But lets consider injuries next, shall we? 998 injuries due to right wing terrorist attacks... and [U]46[/U] due to left-wing terror attacks. Or, very nearly [I]twenty-fucking-two[/I] times as many injuries were caused in the name of right-wing causes vs left-wing.
Stop trying to paint Antifa as equally dangerous, deadly, or violent: they simple aren't. Are they reprehensible? Yes. Do they deserve to face the consequences of their actions? Abso-fucking-lutely! Buuuuut, there are still far fewer actions by Antifa-aligned groups that will [I]require[/I] action. This particular incident seems to be a case somewhat akin to Charlottesville: an instance of the local police force failing to maintain a stable situation, and failing to step in when things got out of hand.
Also I swear to god if you turn this around to the death/violence caused by islamists, as mentioned in the article, I will find a way to reach through the tubes of the internet and slap you.[/QUOTE]
It's interesting, that same source says that left-wing groups have caused more than twice the number of terrorist related deaths than right-wing groups since 2016, including the deaths in Charlottesville.
That seems to coincide quite well to the rise of antifa.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52624557]It's interesting, that same source says that left-wing groups have caused more than twice the number of terrorist related deaths than right-wing groups since 2016, including the deaths in Charlottesville.
That seems to coincide quite well to the rise of antifa.[/QUOTE]
Worth pointing out that 8 of the 13 deaths since 2016 were caused by Black Separatist/Nationalist/Supremacists. As far as I'm aware Antifa hasn't actually killed anyone yet but I can't find out where the remaining 5 come from.
The data is conclusive in any case; Antifa (and the far-left generally), while dangerous and destable as a group, are not [I][B]as dangerous[/B][/I] as Nazis, white supremacists, and other far-right groups.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;52624693]Worth pointing out that 8 of the 13 deaths since 2016 were caused by Black Separatist/Nationalist/Supremacists. As far as I'm aware Antifa hasn't actually killed anyone yet but I can't find out where the remaining 5 come from.
The data is conclusive in any case; Antifa (and the far-left generally), while dangerous and destable as a group, are not [I][B]as dangerous[/B][/I] as Nazis, white supremacists, and other far-right groups.[/QUOTE]
Sure, and the large majority of the "right-wing" deaths are by sovereign citizen types (77% of the deaths listed on that article as "right-wing" were from the Oklahoma City Bombing), not Nazis.
If we're going to distinguish individual groups and ideologies, which I think we should, then it needs to happen on all sides.
I would also be very interested in the amount of property damage caused by each side. Many of the left-wing violence is against businesses (see BLM riots as an example).
[QUOTE]It's interesting, that same source says that left-wing groups have caused more than twice the number of terrorist related deaths than right-wing groups since 2016, including the deaths in Charlottesville.
That seems to coincide quite well to the rise of antifa.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=sgman91;52624705]Sure, and the large majority of the "right-wing" deaths are by sovereign citizen types (77% of the deaths listed on that article as "right-wing" were from the Oklahoma City Bombing), not Nazis.
If we're going to distinguish individual groups and ideologies, which I think we should, then it needs to happen on all sides.
I would also be very interested in the amount of property damage caused by each side. Many of the left-wing violence is against businesses (see BLM riots as an example).[/QUOTE]
You extrapolated and twisted the data in order to make it fit you want it to say. Constraining the timescale from since 2001-present to since 2016-the present because it looks better, then when Raidyr points out that those deaths since 2016 were caused by Black Supremacist movements, not Antifa, you switch from insinuating that Antifa caused it ("that seems to coincide quite well to the rise antifa") to making an entirely different argument that the violence is caused by left-wing groups as a whole. Then you accuse Raidyr of being hypocritical for arguing against the argument you were actually making and not the new one you just invented.
Can you please tell me if you are deliberately being disingenuous? This question isn't a personal attack on you, I really just cannot understand how or why this argument is supposed to makes sense. In every thread I see you post in, it really seems like you just make one incorrect statement, then when someone corrects you, you change the statement completely and then accuse that person of hypocrisy. Why can't you just clearly state your beliefs rather than trying to twist around what other people are saying in order to make these "gotcha!" posts?
I really don't understand what this disagreement is even about. Surely, barring one or two posters, the general consensus is that politically-motivated violence is bad no matter who does it.
That's why posts like this, get several dozen dumb ratings:
[QUOTE=aydin690;52621267]Well, violence is the only language nazis and trump supports understand.[/QUOTE]
Whenever threads like this get posted, the majority of users here condemn the people who are violent. Users who are supportive of the violence like aydin get dumped on. The most heinous thing users here do otherwise is suggest that the majority of the people at the event were peaceful protesters, which is immediately jumped on and twisted around so that they are apparently now calling everyone they disagree with a nazi, threatening freedom of speech and covering up violence committed by left-wing anarchists/communists. Whenever this is pointed out, the argument is twisted around again like in the previous example (i.e. "I'm not talking about antifa, I'm talking about left-wing groups in general") and then they once again accuse the other user of being a hypocrite for addressing the argument they made originally and not the new one they just invented.
[QUOTE=Zyler;52624847]You extrapolated and twisted the data in order to make it fit you want it to say. Constraining the timescale from since 2001-present to since 2016-the present because it looks better, then when Raidyr points out that those deaths since 2016 were caused by Black Supremacist movements, not Antifa, you switch from insinuating that Antifa caused it ("that seems to coincide quite well to the rise antifa") to making an entirely different argument that the violence is caused by left-wing groups as a whole. Then you accuse Raidyr of being hypocritical for arguing against the argument you were actually making and not the new one you just invented.
Can you please tell me if you are deliberately being disingenuous? This question isn't a personal attack on you, I really just cannot understand how or why this argument is supposed to makes sense. In every thread I see you post in, it really seems like you just make one incorrect statement, then when someone corrects you, you change the statement completely and then accuse that person of hypocrisy. Why can't you just clearly state your beliefs rather than trying to twist around what other people are saying in order to make these "gotcha!" posts?[/QUOTE]
The article specifically makes the point about post-2016 incidents. I didn't just pull it out of my butt.
I also didn't accuse anyone of hypocrisy. I was pointing out that if we're going to make distinctions, then we need to make all relevant distinctions. It's a discussion, not every disagreement comes down to an attack on the person's character.
With that said, those extremist black groups aren't all that different from antifa. They both hate cops, they both want some kind of socialism/communism, they both group all the right wing as the enemy, they both have a deep distrust of our system, etc. On the other hand, sovereign citizens and white supremacists have almost nothing to do with each other. One is racial, the other isn't. One wants to get rid of government, the other wants to utilize a strong government. Etc.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52624887]The article specifically makes the point about post-2016 incidents. I didn't just pull it out of my butt.
I also didn't accuse anyone of hypocrisy. I was pointing out that if we're going to make distinctions, then we need to make all relevant distinctions. It's a discussion, not every disagreement comes down to an attack on the person's character.
With that said, those extremist black groups aren't all that different from antifa. They both hate cops, they both want some kind of socialism/communism, they both group all the right wing as the enemy, they both have a deep distrust of our system, etc. On the other hand, sovereign citizens and white supremacists have almost nothing to do with each other. One is racial, the other isn't. One wants to get rid of government, the other wants to utilize a strong government. Etc.[/QUOTE]
But you specifically mentioned antifa in the first post and then changed it to be about socialism/communism in the next post.
Why don't you just your argument clearly in the first place instead of twisting it around to something else in every post?
First you say that there was an increase in violence from left-wing groups since 2016 which has something to do with the rise of antifa, then you say that we shouldn't conflate groups together, then you say that extremist black groups and antifa are functionally the same based on your belief that they are both socialism/communism but sovereign citizens and white supremacists are not related eventhough they are both conservative ideologies.
I mean, it's totally subjective. Socialism and communism are not the same thing either, there are many branches of socialism and many branches of communism that are all opposed to one another. As someone stated earlier in the thread, there's no evidence to assume that antifa is either entirely socialist or communist or exactly what they believe beyond just being against fascism. There's probably many different groups of people who call themselves antifa as well, so it's not like you can exactly pin them down and ask them about it.
Can't you see how disingenuous it is to go "Oh you cannot criticize right-wing violence because they are made up of lots of extremely different groups of people with many different ideological viewpoints, but left-wing violence is all the same because they're all socialists/communists/whatever"?
[QUOTE=Tudd;52623530]Well considering I was originally referring to a user who was talking about these protesters specifically, I really don't see why your point that Nazis are bad on a grander scale is relevant unless you are trying to imply the people assaulted were Nazis.[/quote]
I was responding to this post in the first place:
[QUOTE=Tudd;52621912]That's fine if you think one is worse than the other.
But going off history of Communists (Antifa members largely identify Anarcho-Commmunist) and Nazi governments, my choice is to have neither groups given a pass.[/QUOTE]
Which allude to the groups at large and not specific protesters.
[Quote]Well considering literal Nazi voters numbered in the millions and after denazification with largely the same population existing Germany 5-10 years later weren't still genocidal except for fringe elements; That would be a good indicator that people can change their opinion or were largely not in favor of genocide to be maniacs about it.[/quote]
And those people were either complacent (which is almost as bad as being supportive of it) or ignorant about it. Nowadays Nazis don't have the luxury of ignorance, the Holocaust is pretty common knowledge by now, and to claim those who identify as Nazis knowing full well what they did aren't supportive of those acts is being willfully ignorant.
[Quote]Not only that, but there Nazis who joined the party who weren't Genocidal maniacs. There was a spectrum of Albert Speer/John Rabe/Oscar Schindler-types to your Himmlers/Eichmanns/Heydrichs. Collectively judge Nazis you want, because I do too, but judging individuals is far more important when we talk about dishing out punitive charges.[/quote]
Good thing we're not talking about individual punishment then, but about the whole "just as bad" bullshit.
[Quote]Real Nazis are not for freedom of speech, but they can and have operated within it, because obviously it is a system that allows them to spread their message. The only reason I talk about Antifa as the exception here is because they are openly attacking freedom of speech at the moment and hurting those who exercise it (even if their opinions are absolutely horrid). Otherwise I think both groups would clamp down on it if given the chance, and ironically had you asked me in the 1960's which group I am more worried about clamping down on Freedom of Speech, it would have been right-wing elements.[/quote]
So what you're saying is Antifa are attacking freedom of speech because they hurt people for holding (utterly despicable) political stances? But Nazis are doing the exact same fucking thing! Shit, they even hurt and kill people for simply [I]daring to exist[/I], isn't that even worse?
[Quote]By and large they have normalized political violence at rallies. You would have to be willfully ignorant by now to suggest that the rise of in the street fighting was started and caused by right-wing aggressors when Charlottsville is the only clear case of that. People not having died from the weapons, explosives, or gang tactics used by Antifa regularly is quite a miracle. Especially with the one leftist extremist who tried to hunt Republicans down in a baseball park or the recently charged Bike-lock fugitive.[/quote]
Funny you would mention gang tactics, Nazi are notorious for their gang violence and xenophobic attacks. Also funny you would allude to the Charlottesville car attack as some sort of statistical anomaly when a black man was beaten up with metal poles by Nazis at the same fucking rally. Hell of a coincidence, huh? Couldn't be that Nazis simply tend to be violent as per their ideology.
[Quote]Honestly, we could just point at specific scenarios all day, but I am more worried about the violence that gets to fly under the radar than the one that the overwhelming majority of Americans are against.[/quote]
Fly under the radar? Every time an incident involving Antifa happens there are several articles about it and when they get posted on this forum they get near unanimous condemnation. What people are fed up with is the trend of pretending they are just as bad as fucking Nazis, which they objectively aren't if only for the Nazi's ideology.
Oh and what's even more retarded is you putting Nazis on an equal footing with Communist activists who, believe it or not, are a separate entity from Antifa.
[QUOTE=aydin690;52621259]Well, they are.[/QUOTE]
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA
holy shit are you serious
[QUOTE=Megadave;52621882]You're comparing poison that will make you sick to poison that will kill you. Yeah they are both pretty fucking bad but Neo-Nazis are in a whole different level.[/QUOTE]
yeah but they're both fucking poison, get rid of them both
[QUOTE=_Axel;52621952]So now you're saying Communists ie political activists who advocate for a different (albeit inefficient) economic model, are just as bad as Nazis ie people who advocate for racial supremacy and genocide?
Yeah no shit dictatorial communist regimes have killed lots of people. Do you see protesters advocating for that though? Like you see neo-nazis chanting "death to Jews"? Quit acting like the two are equivalent.[/QUOTE]
lmao you're really the kind of guy who thinks communism is just some economic thing when it's killed more people than the nazis, cool, love it
[QUOTE=proboardslol;52622045]On the other hand, if you tolerate naziism and treat it as a valid political opinion, eventually not only will free speech be dead, but so will 10 million jews[/QUOTE]
this is the dumbest extrapolation I have ever read, and you should feel absolutely awful for having written this and allowing it to be quoted
[editline]29th August 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52624003]They're against right wing extremism and fascism. That's it.[/QUOTE]
"Antifa groups tend to be anti-government and anti-capitalist;[7] its adherents are mostly socialists, anarchists, and communists who, according to Mark Bray, a historian at Dartmouth College and author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, “reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.”[8]"
it took me 2 seconds to find this
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Garbage post. If you're going to respond to people use valid arguments instead of making trash commentary." - UncleJimmema))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=sgman91;52624705]Sure, and the large majority of the "right-wing" deaths are by sovereign citizen types (77% of the deaths listed on that article as "right-wing" were from the Oklahoma City Bombing), not Nazis.
If we're going to distinguish individual groups and ideologies, which I think we should, then it needs to happen on all sides.
I would also be very interested in the amount of property damage caused by each side. Many of the left-wing violence is against businesses (see BLM riots as an example).[/QUOTE]
Charlottesville: 19 injured critically and sent to hospital, 1 dead from the car attack. 1 verified report of a man being beaten severely. 1-2 other unverified reports, iirc.
Berkeley: 5 injured, not sure how many critically. No deaths.
Soooooo, even in the past month it looks like Neo-nazis have caused 4x as many injuries as Antifa, as far as I know. And this is, as requested, distinguishing individual groups and ideologies. The BLM riots you are probably referencing caused $9mil in property damage: take from that what you will. I'll take that the riot got out of control (as riots do).
Speaking of that, then, we should probably distinguish the various ideologies and sects in the incredibly (and unfortunately, tbh) disparate BLM movement. I would also like to point out that Sovereign Citizen types have also been encouraged as of late by the pardoning of a certain shitlord Sheriff, so they're not outside the bounds of relevancy either.
[QUOTE=sgman91;52624887]The article specifically makes the point about post-2016 incidents. I didn't just pull it out of my butt.[/QUOTE]
The article also makes the point that this is a recent trend of left-wing violence - hardly surprising given the political climate as of late, and the rightward shift of major government institutions. When it comes to data, it is not recent, singular, or isolated events that count the most: it is a trend. The trend still shows that right-wing groups are more likely to cause harm to people, by a rather tremendous margin that simply cannot be dismissed or disregarded. Additionally, if we consider your point about deaths due to right wing attacks, that's still going to leave the question of injuries due to attacks. And I would argue (and I don't think its a difficult argument to make) that property damage ranks below damage to living beings.
[QUOTE]
They both hate cops, they both want some kind of socialism/communism, they both group all the right wing as the enemy, they both have a deep distrust of our system, etc. On the other hand, sovereign citizens and white supremacists have almost nothing to do with each other. One is racial, the other isn't. One wants to get rid of government, the other wants to utilize a strong government.
[/QUOTE]
This is not a good point to make. Extremist black groups have goals a [I]lot[/I] more complex than just "kill all white people". I encourage you to read their platforms: including the platform of BLM proper.
[QUOTE=Nebukadnezzer;52626102]
"Antifa groups tend to be anti-government and anti-capitalist;[7] its adherents are mostly socialists, anarchists, and communists who, according to Mark Bray, a historian at Dartmouth College and author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, “reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.”[8]"
it took me 2 seconds to find this[/QUOTE]
could you have spent a few more seconds sourcing it, or would that have ruined your "comedic" timing and editing?
[QUOTE=RobL;52624187]Reluctant to agree with Tudd but find me someone who identifies as antifa and is also pro-capitalism. Liberal antifa are flying pigs.[/QUOTE]
I don't see why this matters or should be used as a standard of judgement for whether or not they're good or bad.
You do realize there's no shortage of valid criticisms against capitalism and modern liberalism, right? A lot of members of Antifa believe in environmentalism for example, which is one of the reasons why they oppose capitalism: historically, capitalism has a terrible record of regulating itself in the interest of the environment because it incentivizes short-term profit over long-term sustainability. A lot also oppose liberalism because they feel it's been inadequate at governing and actually looking out for the people; "liberal institutions like the poor, but they don't like the stink of the poor" in other words [url=http://www.npr.org/2013/05/15/184232470/looking-ahead-chris-hedges-on-poverty-politics-u-s-culture](to quote Chris Hedges)[/url].
[QUOTE=Nebukadnezzer;52626102]lmao you're really the kind of guy who thinks communism is just some economic thing when it's killed more people than the nazis, cool, love it[/QUOTE]
The two ideologies aren't remotely comparable, those mass killings you speak of aren't part of the communist goal, whereas genocide is a defining factor of Nazi ideology, which Nazi activists necessarily agree with. To say that communist activists are just as bad as those cunts is some really out there bullshit.
[QUOTE=Govna;52626587]I don't see why this matters or should be used as a standard of judgement for whether or not they're good or bad.
You do realize there's no shortage of valid criticisms against capitalism and modern liberalism, right? A lot of members of Antifa believe in environmentalism for example, which is one of the reasons why they oppose capitalism: historically, capitalism has a terrible record of regulating itself in the interest of the environment because it incentivizes short-term profit over long-term sustainability. A lot also oppose liberalism because they feel it's been inadequate at governing and actually looking out for the people; "liberal institutions like the poor, but they don't like the stink of the poor" in other words [url=http://www.npr.org/2013/05/15/184232470/looking-ahead-chris-hedges-on-poverty-politics-u-s-culture](to quote Chris Hedges)[/url].[/QUOTE]
Lol I'm a socialist sympathiser I was just establishing facts
[QUOTE=Tudd;52624069]Oh no, I still worry about these people, but their capability to implement their ideas is way overblown relative to their actual political power.[/QUOTE]
...then why do you care so much about antifa? I'd argue they're far less organized than neo-nazis/alt right, due to the way antifa is structured and their lack of a coherent message.
[QUOTE=Lambeth;52628217]...then why do you care so much about antifa? I'd argue they're far less organized than neo-nazis/alt right, due to the way antifa is structured and their lack of a coherent message.[/QUOTE]
Far-left groups also enjoy less institutional support than the far right does at the moment.
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