High School Teacher Writes Letter Denying Rape Culture, Enrages Students - Sensationalist Headlines

lemme put it this way guy A walks into dangerous place A and gets shot and killed by dangerous inhabitant A guy C is advising guy B not to walk into dangerous place A so that he doesn't get shot and killed by dangerous inhabitant A is guy C blaming guy A for being murdered? no. dangerous inhabitant A is at fault, and this is the belief of all parties involved. at the same time, it's inadvisable to go to dangerous place A, and guy C feels it's best to inform guy B of the danger of going to dangerous place A.

I do believe in rape culture, mainly because rape still exists. However, I think it would be incredibly stupid not to make distinctions. Western countries might have a rape culture, but the middle east beats it in spades. My biggest problem with the people who use the term is that far too often it's used in a very simplistic, unnuanced way that comes down to shouting about tits in video games instead of the role of psychology. You're only doing harm to the conversation when you make statements like having a penis = rape culture.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52194539]You know where rape culture actually exists? The Middle-East.[/QUOTE] Gonna have to admit, this legitimately angered me. The "I don't see it so it's not real" narrative is itself a symptom of rape culture. And while there may be even bigger issues in other parts of the world that's not an excuse for ignoring what happens in our own society. To clear it up for everyone, rape culture doesn't immediately mean a society that says rape is okay. It's a series of cultural beliefs that make it easier for rapists to hide or justify their behavior. Several of my female friends have been sexually assaulted, and none of them were taken seriously for trying to report it. Be it police that ignored them, the abuser saying they did nothing wrong and trying to turn mutual friends against the victim, or the stunning amount of victim blaming that happens afterwards. Having been sexually assaulted myself, I can say there's a strong and barely concealed mentality in our society that victims are partially responsible for what happened to them. This gives rapists an "out" per se, and it becomes easier for people to think what happened was 'deserved' because of the just-world hypothesis.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52195580]Did you miss the part where I said that isn't what I'm arguing? I'm not asking in a condescending way, you just seemed to have missed it. I am NOT making the argument that wearing revealing clothing makes you more likely to be raped. That may or may not be true and I, truth be told, don't know the answer. I'm saying that a person can make that argument without also arguing that the victim is at fault for being raped. You saying that someone shouldn't walk home at night is a similar type of claim. It's giving advice on how to not be a victim, but you're not (correct me if I'm wrong) saying that if a person were to walk home alone at night, and were mugged, that they hold the responsibility for the mugging.[/QUOTE] I'm not implying you're actually blaming the victim, what I'm saying is that not going home late at night alone is decent advice for anyone for multiple reasons while wearing more decent clothes is bad advice because it doesn't help in the first place.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52195655]I'm not implying you're actually blaming the victim, what I'm saying is that not going home late at night alone is decent advice for anyone for multiple reasons while wearing more decent clothes is bad advice because it doesn't help in the first place.[/QUOTE] I think you're focusing on the wrong point-- and, of course, I can't speak for the both of you, so feel free to correct my assumption if I'm wrong-- because he's not really arguing the specific piece of advice as much as he is the value of advisories in general.

A better analogy would have been say, a girl was walking home alone late at night and got raped and you said "You shouldn't have walked home alone" You're not saying it's their fault they got raped all you're saying is it made her easier to become a victim. Still I don't think dressing a certain way makes you more prone to rape, being vulnerable and an easy target makes you more prone to rape.

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52195655]I'm not implying you're actually blaming the victim, what I'm saying is that not going home late at night alone is decent advice for anyone for multiple reasons while wearing more decent clothes is bad advice because it doesn't help in the first place.[/QUOTE] You may be right! That would be a discussion to have with someone making that point.

[QUOTE=Thlis;52195068]By that logic you could point to antifa videos and claim the western world is a culture of leftist facism[/QUOTE] Leftist fascism is pretty oxymoronic, considering fascism is a right-wing ideology. Not to mention fascism is authoritarian and antifa is anarchistic.

[QUOTE=Paramud;52195728]Leftist fascism is pretty oxymoronic, considering fascism is a right-wing ideology. Not to mention fascism is authoritarian and antifa is anarchistic.[/QUOTE] Calling fascism "right-wing" is pretty useless as a definition compared to the modern left/right divide.

[QUOTE=GrizzlyBear;52194744] If you want proof, the US president boasted about sexually assaulting women and it was brushed off as locker room talk and he escaped with zero consequence.[/QUOTE] whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"??? a sound byte isn't grounds for a guilty charge.

[QUOTE=sgman91;52195769]Calling fascism "right-wing" is pretty useless as a definition compared to the modern left/right divide.[/QUOTE] In what way is it useless?

Personally I feel that saying anything along the lines of "you shouldn't have done x" to a victim of sexual assault comes off as kind of douchey, and of you're saying it directly to/about a specific person, it becomes victim blaming because it comes off as "it's your fault for the rape because you did x" I dunno probably not making sense but that's the way I see it.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;52195874]In what way is it useless?[/QUOTE] The economic, social, etc. goals of fascism don't like up with the modern right.

[QUOTE=millan;52194846]If you think there's no such a thing as rape culture in the west, just browse [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/]TheRedPill[/url] for a few minutes, or go watch something [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pEfhgG3Ocw"]fun[/URL] about "pick up artists".[/QUOTE] yeah cause a few retards represent the all of the western world and shows a widespread, threatening rape culture that endangers women all over the US, UK, etc

Seems more like a 'left unsaid' thing to me. Yes the rapist is at fault, he was the reason it happened but that doesn't mean you couldn't have taken measures to minimize the risk, because that's what it is. A risk. The rapist will be charged and sentenced, who's debating that? Although I feel I should mention that clothing seems to have a negligable effect on the chances of rape, noone seems to have brought up statistics one way or another. And as far as rape culture, people will always rape, and if that's the definition of it then there will always be rape culture, deal with it? People suck? That doesn't mean the majority of people don't find it disgusting or won't try to stamp it out. The rapist will be charged on the evidence and if there's a lack of it? You cant sentence someone on an accusation. I want rape to end too, but just because it exists doesn't mean we have a rape culture.

[QUOTE=Jake Nukem;52196035][B]The rapist will be charged and sentenced, who's debating that? [/B][/QUOTE] See the thing is, there's a stunning amount of times where that doesn't actually happen so I don't think we can easily, actually take that for granted. The reason why there's an emphasis of this on the level of [I]cultural attitudes[/I] that tacitly allow rape to exist is that laws and general social derision for rape aren't enough. The history of racism, sexism should be enough of a testament that [I]the existence of laws is not enough to prevent these heinous acts, [B]we need to go farther[/B][/I]. Just as it is not enough to legislate equality, or not enough to just remove racist laws, we need to go farther with sexual violence and reform the cultural environment which allows rapists and violators to come into existence in the first place. That is to say, these things are symptomatic of deeper ills, and thus there is deeper work to be done. [QUOTE=Jake Nukem;52196035] And as far as rape culture,[B] people will always rape, [/B][/QUOTE] Is this not a self-fulfilling prophecy?? I mean total eradication is an absolutely massive goal obviously, don't doubt that I realize that, but do you not feel we can do better? Do you not feel we have much farther to go? Think about all the other advances we've made as a species over thousands of years. Does that not tell us we can improve? Even just generally being able to go place to place without attacked by highwaymen or something... Would we not have heard the same thing in colonial America with slavery: "as far as slavery is concerned, people will always be slaves, always be enslaved"? But now slavery is nearly universally illegal despised, and yet there are still ~30 million slaves in the world. It would be hard to argue we at least haven't made progress and we as a species are gradually realizing that people are not objects to be owned. There's no ultimate reason to think we can't continue making progress with things like sexual violence, and if we can make progress we should do every damn thing within our power to make those steps sooner rather than later, including a profound change at a cultural level to address the very things which are the foundation for acts of rape.

[QUOTE=space1;52195778]whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"??? a sound byte isn't grounds for a guilty charge.[/QUOTE] lmfao what the fuck It's explicit audio evidence of him, on the record, bragging about sexual assaulting women, how is that possibly not grounds for a "guilty charge"

[QUOTE=sgman91;52195451]Is a thief only going to steal because something is valuable and easy to take? No, they aren't, but being valuable and easy to take makes a person who is predisposed to theft more likely to steal it. Again, I'm not making the argument at the moment that being scantily clad even makes you more likely to get raped. That's not my point. My point is that there are two issues here: 1) Choices of the victim that increase or decrease their chances of being a victim. 2) The responsibility of the crime. These are separate and should be treated separately. It doesn't help anyone to confuse the two. Talking about the first does not mean that you are also assigning responsibility.[/QUOTE] Someone denying another person their bodily autonomy is not the same as a personal item left unguarded. "Chances of being a victim" are pretty immeasurable. Rape as a crime, like kidnapping and child abuse, is something that usually involves the victim's trust being abused. It's not always scantily clad women being held at knife point in an alley in some inner city ghetto. Women and men who have been sexually assaulted often place an enormous amount of blame on themselves doubling down on the stress and trauma from their victimization. To say things like "We'll if you hadn't been wearing X, you would have been less likely to be assaulted" is to reinforce that trauma. Its not the same as "Don't leave your truck unlocked next time". You're telling them that being violated and humiliated was at least partly based on an action they "took" that was "preventable". I've known so many people who've been abused and used by other people and I long for the day when this kind of drivel about "Not making yourself a victim" finally fucking gives.

Most of the time rapists claim that the reason they chose a person is because they seemed confident and in control of themselves. They wanted to take that control away from them. Stemming from that logic dressing like a slut must be the ultimate deterrent. /s btw.

[QUOTE=Natrox;52195520]Do you not see difference in these?: "It's your own fault, you should dress less like a slut." vs "Wearing revealing clothes may be dangerous in some locations, you should be careful.".[/QUOTE] The second statement is just a slightly more polite way of saying the first. [QUOTE=MrJazzy;52195550]Sgman1, let me ask you this; [b]do you have any reason to believe that wearing the "right" clothes has any impact whatsoever on the chances of getting raped? I mean like stats, studies whatever.[/b] Yes, taking precautions is one thing, such as not walking home alone late at night, but that's mostly just common sense.[/QUOTE] This pretty much sums up the entire argument. There is no reason to automatically assume, in any particular instance of rape or sexual assault, that the way a person dressed had any impact whatsoever on whether or not they were more or less likely to be victimized. Why would a rapist necessarily care what clothes their chosen victim is wearing as opposed to whether or not they are alone or whether it's late at night where nobody can see the crime taking place? Arguing that the victim was raped because of the clothes they are wearing is a diversionary tactic, it has no bearing on the situation and serves no purpose except to attempt to justify the actions of the rapist. Essentially, saying "so-and-so might not have been victimized if they weren't wearing such revealing clothes" is the PC way of saying "They were asking for it". There's no real difference in the underlying implications, but it's more acceptable because when somebody says it they aren't [i]literally[/i] blaming the victim, so they can get away with it even if it means pretty much the same thing.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52194539]You know where rape culture actually exists? The Middle-East.[/QUOTE] fuck everyone who has a problem, there's someone who has it worse somewhere so the best thing is for everyone to just smugly sit back and do nothing

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52194539]You know where rape culture actually exists? The Middle-East.[/QUOTE] It's not a contest.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;52196447]lmfao what the fuck It's explicit audio evidence of him, on the record, bragging about sexual assaulting women, how is that possibly not grounds for a "guilty charge"[/QUOTE] you know everything that people say, especially when bragging, isn't necessarily true? a person's word in private is about as misleading as a breitbart headline which would still make him a lying scumbag either way. [QUOTE=Zyler;52196639]The second statement is just a slightly more polite way of saying the first. [/QUOTE] telling people to exercise caution is not the same as blaming them for a crime commited upon them by other people. if you can't see the obvious differences in what natrox is saying you aren't unlike most americans who see everything as black and white, and without nuance.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;52194663]Which is nowhere NEAR the truth in the western world.[/QUOTE] nah trivialising of sexual assault/harassment does happen in the western world. its not rape and calling it rape culture is really stupid tho.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52194539]You know where rape culture actually exists? The Middle-East.[/QUOTE] Well, I don't know if that's true for sure, but if it were true, it would be there if anywhere on this Earth.

[QUOTE=Zyler;52196639]The second statement is just a slightly more polite way of saying the first.[/QUOTE] It's not. [QUOTE=Zyler;52196639]Arguing that the victim was raped because of the clothes they are wearing is a diversionary tactic, it has no bearing on the situation and serves no purpose except to attempt to justify the actions of the rapist. Essentially, saying "so-and-so might not have been victimized if they weren't wearing such revealing clothes" is the PC way of saying "They were asking for it". There's no real difference in the underlying implications, but it's more acceptable because when somebody says it they aren't [i]literally[/i] blaming the victim, so they can get away with it even if it means pretty much the same thing.[/QUOTE] I have a problem with this statement. You're trying to insinuate that any kind of risk-reducing advice is automatically victim blaming. If someone believes that revealing clothes may increase the risk of rape, they aren't automatically saying "you're asking for it, it's your own fault" when they advise a person to be careful with what they wear. People also give advice not to flaunt your belongings in certain urban areas. Is that victim blaming? No, not unless blame is being assigned explicitly (e.g. "It's your own fault for getting robbed, you should know better than to walk around that part of town" vs. "What happened to you was horrible, but it may have not been a good idea to walk around that part of town."). Mind you, this doesn't mean that revealing clothes necessarily are a cause of rape (though I don't know if there are proper statistics on this at all). It's just that I feel that it's very disingenuous to paint everyone as trying to justify rape, when that's most definitely not always the intent. [editline]7th May 2017[/editline] Not that I would say anything like this to a rape victim. I am just trying to make it clear that the statements are not the same, and the underlying meaning can be completely different.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52194539]You know where rape culture actually exists? The Middle-East.[/QUOTE] What are you!? A fucking racist? :v:

[QUOTE=Natrox;52197639]It's not. I have a problem with this statement. You're trying to insinuate that any kind of risk-reducing advice is automatically victim blaming. If someone believes that revealing clothes may increase the risk of rape, they aren't automatically saying "you're asking for it, it's your own fault" when they advise a person to be careful with what they wear. People also give advice not to flaunt your belongings in certain urban areas. Is that victim blaming? No, not unless blame is being assigned explicitly (e.g. "It's your own fault for getting robbed, you should know better than to walk around that part of town" vs. "What happened to you was horrible, but it may have not been a good idea to walk around that part of town."). Mind you, this doesn't mean that revealing clothes necessarily are a cause of rape (though I don't know if there are proper statistics on this at all). It's just that I feel that it's very disingenuous to paint everyone as trying to justify rape, when that's most definitely not always the intent. [editline]7th May 2017[/editline] Not that I would say anything like this to a rape victim. I am just trying to make it clear that the statements are not the same, and the underlying meaning can be completely different.[/QUOTE] If their being raped depends even partially on what they're wearing, then you're explicitly saying that its at least partially their fault. You can make excuses for your mental gymnastics all day, but when it comes down to it, courts both legal and of public opinion will use "well if she had done xyz she would've had less chance of being raped" as an excuse to aquitt or give lighter sentences, then thats where you get rape culture. Rape is always solely, soley because the rapist is an amoral scumbag who values their victims as less than human. If a rapist wants to rape someone they're going to rape someone. Your right to your own body is not the same as the value of a shiny gold watch. God damn it, how is this a hard concept for you people?

[QUOTE=Action Frank;52197732]If their being raped depends even partially on what they're wearing, then you're explicitly saying that its at least partially their fault.[/QUOTE] Such a statement isn't always assigning blame explicitly nor implicitly - as I've tried to explain before. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197732]You can make excuses for your mental gymnastics all day, but when it comes down to it, courts both legal and of public opinion will use "well if she had done xyz she would've had less chance of being raped" as an excuse to aquitt or give lighter sentences, then thats where you get rape culture.[/QUOTE] Where in my post did I ever say anything about public opinion or courts? I do not think it's a valid defense, nor do I think it should lead to lighter sentences. I am not defending the use of such a statement in court, don't pretend I am. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197732]Rape is always solely, soley because the rapist is an amoral scumbag who values their victims as less than human. If a rapist wants to rape someone they're going to rape someone.[/QUOTE] Which I agree with. That doesn't make this piece of advice automatically a "victim blaming" statement. [QUOTE=Action Frank;52197732]Your right to your own body is not the same as the value of a shiny gold watch. God damn it, how is this a hard concept for you people?[/QUOTE] Obviously it's not. I am not comparing these two things, I am comparing the risk avoidance statements. I'll make it absolutely clear where I stand: 1. A person is NEVER asking to be raped. Don't pretend I am somehow defending scumbags. 2. I do not think you assign blame by warning someone because you are worried for their safety. 3. I do not believe in giving such advice to be particularly helpful, nor do I think it's the solution to this problem (the solution is to eliminate rape - though we don't know how to do this). However, I do not think that this is a black and white statement. Simply warning someone for their own safety does not make you a rape apologist or someone in 'support' of rape culture. 4. I am merely defending nuance in statements. I am looking at this from a crime avoidance advice perspective.

[QUOTE=Natrox;52197839]Such a statement isn't always assigning blame explicitly nor implicitly - as I've tried to explain before. Where in my post did I ever say anything about public opinion or courts? I do not think it's a valid defense, nor do I think it should lead to lighter sentences. I am not defending the use of such a statement in court, don't pretend I am. Which I agree with. That doesn't make this piece of advice automatically a "victim blaming" statement. Obviously it's not. I am not comparing these two things, I am comparing the risk avoidance statements. I'll make it absolutely clear where I stand: 1. A person is NEVER asking to be raped. Don't pretend I am somehow defending scumbags. 2. I do not think you assign blame by warning someone because you are worried for their safety. 3. I do not believe in giving such advice to be particularly helpful, nor do I think it's the solution to this problem (the solution is to eliminate rape - though we don't know how to do this). However, I do not think that this is a black and white statement. Simply warning someone for their own safety does not make you a rape apologist or someone in 'support' of rape culture. 4. I am merely defending nuance in statements. I am looking at this from a crime avoidance advice perspective.[/QUOTE] Again, if a CHOICE by a victim is tied to the LIKELIHOOD of their being victimized, how does that not imply blame or at least shared blame? You're not on trial here. I'm not trying to get you to admit to being a rape apologist. I just want people to stop pretendong that saying "If you didnt wear x, you might now have been raped" is somehow not tying them to their own victimhood. This isn't a fuckin' video game. Their is no invisible percentage chance of being raped that goes up or down with your clothing or actions. Rapes are not random attacks or impulse. No one has ever reflexivly raped someone. Its a premeditated act spurred by one persons desire to dominate another. If a rapist with a fetish for blondes raped someone you wouldn't tell her about minimizing her risks by dying her hair, now would you?